470 Reduced Practice Loads

[Rare Breed]

Your 3031 load was around 62-68 lbs of felt recoil. Your 4831 load was around 102lbs.

4831 sucks, the goofy ballistic nuts are so anti-wad and they love powders that fill the cases for “optimal accuracy” they always push 4831. It’s a nasty, teeth jarring experience. It’s also excellent at blowing up vintage guns due to the pressure curve being so much further down the barrel where the metal is thinner.

No truer statement has been made! One of the most valuable lessons I learned from @rookhawk early in my DR experience…select your desired FPS with bullet weight then choose the powder with the fewest grains that delivers FPS within safe psi. Never fails.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Gentlemen, I believe you are assuming facts not in evidence. I never said anything about a recoil aversion. I am definitely not recoil averse. And using your logic that using reduced power loads doesn't make for any better practice, then dry firing is useless as well. Which we all know is not the case.
I asked about reduced loads for several reasons.
Using less powder and possibly hard cast bullets can lessen the expense of extensive practice.
More practice, especially of my rapid reloading skills, can and will help build muscle memory so that in the heat of battle there is a better chance of a good outcome.
Obviously reduced recoil is a help. No one wants to get the crap beat out of them. But, truthfully, have any of you ever been bothered by the recoil when an actual game shooting situation is happening?

It was also noted above that regulation with a reduced load would probably not be great. I could care less. As long as the shots from each barrel group together, even if 10-15'' apart and not on the bull, what does it matter? It's the action of shooting, reloading and shooting again that I deemed important. Before going on the actual hunt, I would obviously recheck and assure that regulation with the full power loads is as it should be.
Not hitting the bull is kind of like shooting for groups with your small bore rifle. Nobody is generally as concerned if centering the bull, as you can always adjust your aiming mechanism, but more about center to center of the group. When you buy a rifle nobody advertises it as able to put all the bullets in the black. They tell you it will shoot MOA or .5 or .4 groups, etc.

Not trying to be argumentative, just clearing up what my intentions are. Thank you all for your input. Always nice to have a good discussion.

Racer…did you ever try and work up a fun load for the 470? As you saw a lot of folks focus on the true gospel of proper Double Gun living, but also think there is a lot of merit in what you originally sought. Muscle memory comes from repeated actions and if running an RMR who cares where it hits, as long as the load you come up with it accurate enough to discern good practice from poor habits impacting accuracy and reliability of your handling.

Even from a loader standpoint, wouldn’t working up a new load also give more experience with the other aspects of hand loading? Seems like a win/win with fun on both ends. Even if you just screw around to come up with one workable load, shoot through the powder and bullets you got to experiment with, that’s still that many more times you’ve handled the rifle, shouldered it, formed a sight picture and executed it.

I say if it tickles your brain you should explore it and see first hand. Not what we all say to do, and enjoy the process even if it proves a one and done. That isn’t a bad thing in itself.

 

[Racer00]

No. I never found the time to play with the project. I still hope to tho. Would love to be able to shoot my double more, especially if I could do it less expensively. Maybe find some good cast bullets and light powder loads. Would also be easy on brass.

And exactly my thoughts. I don't really care where it impacts. Just so that it is repeatable. And if it did happen to regulate somewhat closely to full power loads, even better.
Maybe this winter I can find a few extra hours to play with it. If I do, I will be sure to post my findings here.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Well I loaded with some Norma brass this weekend. Not much changed from Jamison brass except the loads printed about an inch or so lower and 77gr load a little right at 50 yards. Either will work, but I think I like the 77gr load a little better. About a 1/2 inch between at 50 yards.

500gr North Fork SS, Norma brass, Fed 215 primers

 

[rookhawk]

Well I loaded with some Norma brass this weekend. Not much changed from Jamison brass except the loads printed about an inch or so lower and 77gr load a little right at 50 yards. Either will work, but I think I like the 77gr load a little better. About a 1/2 inch between at 50 yards.

500gr North Fork SS, Norma brass, Fed 215 primers

View attachment 723994View attachment 723995

Looks pretty good on Left/Right perspective.

Just pointing out something I learned recently from Ken Owen. If using 3031 powder and the loads are crossing with a Federal 215 primer, use a CCI Magnum primer that burns cooler and they will uncross. Same story with the CCI if the groups are a couple inches wide, going to a Fed215 may bring them together.

I thought that was a really useful tip when you're close to perfection, but not quite there.

 

[Racer00]

Rook, I am assuming a corresponding velocity change with the primer switch? Do you know how much it changes things?

 

[rookhawk]

Rook, I am assuming a corresponding velocity change with the primer switch? Do you know how much it changes things?

I do not. Here were the exact quotes from Ken I wrote in my notes for 470NE:


"Drop half a grain of powder if not using federal 215 but rather using cci magnum primer."

"If a Federal 215 load is crossing, a CCI magnum primer may uncross them by 1/2”"

 

[Racer00]

Thank you. This is great info to tune with. I am working on loads for my 470 now for an upcoming ele hunt in Zim

 

[Tanks]

As long as they group somewhat consistently, it would allow me to practice live fire and work on my reloading skills under somewhat gameday situations. Mostly building muscle memory for rapid reloading is my thought.

First, I'd recommend full loads, only way to develop proper skills to mitigate recoil etc.. Secondly, as suggested by @Red Leg I would recommend getting a SxS shotgun to build muscle memory.

 

[Racer00]

Again, I state, I am not recoil averse. Simply looking for ways to shoot my rifle cheaper, build muscle memory, practice my reload skills, and yes, recoil mitigation is a bonus. And I do have a SxS that I shoot as well.
I am not sure how we determine that full power loads are the only way to develop proper skills.
But thank you for your advice. All is appreciated.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Looks pretty good on Left/Right perspective.

Just pointing out something I learned recently from Ken Owen. If using 3031 powder and the loads are crossing with a Federal 215 primer, use a CCI Magnum primer that burns cooler and they will uncross. Same story with the CCI if the groups are a couple inches wide, going to a Fed215 may bring them together.

I thought that was a really useful tip when you're close to perfection, but not quite there.

If I didn't already have quite literally thousands and thousands of Fed 215s in the closet, I'd consider that. But as the saying goes, "Perfection is often the enemy of good enough."

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

First, I'd recommend full loads, only way to develop proper skills to mitigate recoil etc.. Secondly, as suggested by @Red Leg I would recommend getting a SxS shotgun to build muscle memory.

I think by virtue of my results, my loads are full power, but the recoil is so much more pleasant I can shoot from the bench. Full power being defined here as reaching projectile velocities in the range the double was regulated too.

With H4831, which I still consider a great powder and use it in other rifles I have, the recoil is so much more that shooting from the bench. This means much limited amount of rounds in any one session at the range.

 

[rookhawk]

If I didn't already have quite literally thousands and thousands of Fed 215s in the closet, I'd consider that. But as the saying goes, "Perfection is often the enemy of good enough."

It makes sense Phil. Dead at 40 paces is the measure of a dangerous game hunter. However, it sure is nice to know your double rifle can be tuned to shoot parallel to infinity if you have the time to dedicate to tinkering. There are members on this forum, particularly @Red Leg , that shoot their double rifles at what I consider "Extraordinary" bolt-gun distances with accuracy.

 

[rookhawk]

I think by virtue of my results, my loads are full power, but the recoil is so much more pleasant I can shoot from the bench. Full power being defined here as reaching projectile velocities in the range the double was regulated too.

With H4831, which I still consider a great powder and use it in other rifles I have, the recoil is so much more that shooting from the bench. This means much limited amount of rounds in any one session at the range.

@PHOENIX PHIL I was discussing this recently with Ken Owen. He is concerned that IMR3031 might go away and that there will be no options left for "full velocity and energy, limited recoil" for our larger double rifles. He has recently been experimenting successfully with Vihta Vuori vv130 and v133 powders with good results. In my particular rifles those were "acceptable" but not as good as 3031. It doesn't mean that those aren't perfection in someone else's rifle.

It's incredibly important on vintage guns that we keep the pressure curves similar to cordite. We do not know what will happen if the pressure curve is further down the barrel, potentially leading to a catastrophic barrel failure on what would be a "Safe pressure" load of RL15, 4350, or 4831. We should strive to honor the original proof load behaviors whenever possible.

 

[Huvius]

I think that today we get away from the fact that many early cartridge doubles weren’t meant to be dedicated “Dangerous Game” rifles.
Even 500-450 Holland & Holland Royals were expected to serve something like double duty using full power 480gr loads for DG but also the 365gr loads for game below the “thick skinned game” threshold.
This was a hold over from the black powder express version of the 500-450 which used 375gr and 475gr cast bullets and then jacketed later on for the heavier bullet.
The idea, of course, is to be able to take a variety of game without needlessly punishing yourself or needlessly using up your precious heavy loads on game that doesn’t need it.
I’d try the 75% rule and try a +/-375gr bullet with your full charge or work up a cast bullet load using 4198 and a backer rod filler. The 470 neck is just asking for a nice heavy cast bullet IMO…

 

[rookhawk]

I think that today we get away from the fact that many early cartridge doubles weren’t meant to be dedicated “Dangerous Game” rifles.
Even 500-450 Holland & Holland Royals were expected to serve something like double duty using full power 480gr loads for DG but also the 365gr loads for game below the “thick skinned game” threshold.
This was a hold over from the black powder express version of the 500-450 which used 375gr and 475gr cast bullets and then jacketed later on for the heavier bullet.
The idea, of course, is to be able to take a variety of game without needlessly punishing yourself or needlessly using up your precious heavy loads on game that doesn’t need it.
I’d try the 75% rule and try a +/-375gr bullet with your full charge or work up a cast bullet load using 4198 and a backer rod filler. The 470 neck is just asking for a nice heavy cast bullet IMO…

I’m not sure I agree, but I want to agree so please teach me. When the light loads came out, I thought they were designed for purpose built rifles.

I do not know how to make a 500NE regulated for a 570gr bullet work with a BPE 440gr bullet. If you have secrets to make a barrel regulated for the full loads work for the lighter plains game loads, you’ll be my hero.

 

[tarbe]

I played around, trial an error and settled on 48gr AA5744 with a 500gr in 470.

Average velocity was 1,571 and it shot pretty close to point of aim at 25 yards.

Fed 215 and NO FILLER.

Great rabbit load!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@PHOENIX PHIL I was discussing this recently with Ken Owen. He is concerned that IMR3031 might go away and that there will be no options left for "full velocity and energy, limited recoil" for our larger double rifles. He has recently been experimenting successfully with Vihta Vuori vv130 and v133 powders with good results. In my particular rifles those were "acceptable" but not as good as 3031. It doesn't mean that those aren't perfection in someone else's rifle.

It's incredibly important on vintage guns that we keep the pressure curves similar to cordite. We do not know what will happen if the pressure curve is further down the barrel, potentially leading to a catastrophic barrel failure on what would be a "Safe pressure" load of RL15, 4350, or 4831. We should strive to honor the original proof load behaviors whenever possible.

I've got two 1lb bottles of 3031 and what's left, which is most of it, in a third bottle. Might have to go pick up another couple pounds, should do for quite awhile.

I understand what you're saying about 4831, but I'm not shooting a vintage double and likely will never own one. If I had to go back to H4831 I would, it just would not be so much fun.

 

[Huvius]

I’m not sure I agree, but I want to agree so please teach me. When the light loads came out, I thought they were designed for purpose built rifles.

I do not know how to make a 500NE regulated for a 570gr bullet work with a BPE 440gr bullet. If you have secrets to make a barrel regulated for the full loads work for the lighter plains game loads, you’ll be my hero.

It’s all in period brochures and testimonials such as found here in the 1910 H&H catalogue.

https://www.africahunting.com/hunting/hunting-forums/holland-holland-1910-catalog.pdf

The 500-450 here is describes as shooting various bullet weights and even “accurate results” with black powder!

Some exerpts:

 

[rookhawk]

It’s all in period brochures and testimonials such as found here in the 1910 H&H catalogue.

https://www.africahunting.com/hunting/hunting-forums/holland-holland-1910-catalog.pdf

The 500-450 here is describes as shooting various bullet weights and even “accurate results” with black powder!

Some exerpts:

View attachment 724494


View attachment 724495


View attachment 724496

IMR3031 is very close to stranded cordite in pressure and burn rate. Has anyone tried to decipher the cordite load data for the lighter bullets and tried that spec in their double rifles? I would assume that the velocity would be so high they would cross horribly, but "I want to believe".

If there is a starting load we can deduce, I'd love to see how it reacts in our doubles. Heck, I'd hunt deer with my 470NE if I could toss a 300gr bullet at 1950fps with accuracy.