Avoiding CTE, brain damage, retina injury etc with big bore rifles ?

[roklok]

I appreciate all the responses, keep them coming ! I think the effects of heavy recoil on the human body is not discussed enough, or at least I haven't read much on it. I think headache or not, getting hit with big rifles has some detrimental effect on the human body, and I certainly agree about limiting number of rounds fired with the big boys. I have Mauser 98s in 7x57, 30-06, 375 H&H, and the .458 so I certainly have similar rifles with less recoil to get good practice with. The account of a guy losing his teeth from recoil and accounts of retina detachment illustrate that heavy recoil does have an effect on the skulls of shooters.

I have had a few good concussions in my lifetime through various activities, both career and recreational related. I see that some others have also experienced headaches after shooting hard recoiling rifles, so I am not alone. That doesn't change the fact that I don't want to continue doing so.

To answer some questions, I am shooting outdoors, muzzle blast is not excessive (not nearly as bad as small bore magnums), and believe my hearing protection is adequate.

I put the 4 lead filled cartridges in buttstock, adding 14 ounces of weight at rear of rifle. I intend on taping a pound of weight to the barrel to experiment, and shoot a few rounds that way. If adding two pounds of weight makes the rifle acceptable to shoot, then I will most likely inlet forearm and add tungsten weights in barrel channel. If I am still getting worrying symptoms then I will consider selling rifle before modifying it. I may also drop velocity to around 2200 FPS, that would bring recoil under 60 ft/lbs without adding weight. I am not ready to give up on it yet, and will try a few things. The slip on pad idea to experiment with LOP is also something I will try before giving up on it.

To those suggesting a 416 Remington, I am actually building one as we speak, but doubt it will be ready for my 2026 hunt.

 

[C.W. Richter]

The animals will not notice the difference. In fact, the much higher SD of the 375 slugs (pushed at greater V) makes for better penetration than the entry level 458 (the WM.) Due to pressure and (gun/bullet) weight differences, the 375 HH is much more pleasurable to shoot than the 458 WM (Same reasoning for the 416 Rigby, even better for DG,) but the 375 is the all-around PG/DG African slayer! The advent of the 350 gr 375 DG slugs makes its difference from the 416s almost insignificant on DG, and you can take PG at longer range, more comfortably (something you're NOT doing w/ a 458 WM.) Retina damage?? At first I thought you were worried about the elephant's eyes...SMH. Shoulder damage is the most commonly reported older age ailment for frequent Big bore flyers! You must first See, to Shoot. Check out Kevin Robertson's comprehensive chart comparing recoil energy of typical African guns...Admittedly, my 416 Chatfield-Taylor (416-458 WM) develops the exact same V and E of every other 416, but it's at higher pressure due to the shorter cartridge, and heavy handloads kick like hell (until you add 2 Hg recoil reducers, the best pad, mag loaded to capacity, sling w/ extra rounds in loops (or on stock), ALL steel mounts, the best scope available, maybe magnaporting or brake, and as noted above a proper LOP and form!! GL. This thread reads like that kid in Christmas story graduated to Africa! "You'll shoot your eye out!!" *Bear in-mind that the chart is an average from a bunch of hot handloads. Actual factory 458 WM is often 2,090 FPS (considerably less) for DG loads.

 

[KJE81]

Everyone probably have different measurements due to how one is built etc. I was just going to say that I was very surprised when I was measured for a bolt action, and they said I needed a lenght of pull of 14,2 inches even thought I am only 5 ft 10 inches tall.

Previously I was under the impression that a lenght of pull of 13,5 inches was a little long for me, but as it turns out I shoot better with the longer one, and no problems with the rifle scope due to recoil either.

Perhaps a little long argumentation, but I guess what I am trying to say is that I concur with those who are recommending you to try a longer lenght of pull

 

[HankBuck]

I hear you, but as I said, mine went away after 2 or 3 times...

Getting recoil fit can happen

@DWB - I don’t doubt that YOU had a positive experience and correlate it to something you did by moving Up in recoil, that’s certainly Not convincing…but coin that phrase “Recoil Fit” because in the Unlikely event you’ve stumbled onto something….might make you some $$

 

[Beck]

I would port the rifle, and install a new recoil pad - your brain is pretty darn important, you might also want to have some additional scans done

 

[C.W. Richter]

Had to...this even shows that you can do everything (and more) using my Son's favorite 270 gr slugs in the 375.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Are you still with us, roklok?? My ex-sis in law...being the observant hunter-type...i noticed her head wobbling in the wind at an old family picnic...and then, i heard that empty spray paint can rattling sound! I began SMH as well (voluntarily). She didn't shoot. That was more Darwinian a cause...

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Don't own one but I have heard PAST pads can make a difference. Worth it to try. However, they are not field attire so you still might have the problem hunting. No one wants to go all the way to Africa and have a safari ruined by headaches and nausea. I would still recommend also dropping down the loads and longer LOP. Also, I note from specs list this gun is 22". Definitely the minimum length in my opinion. Both my 30-06 and 404 are 24". Would not want them shorter. The noise might be a factor with that barrel. Beef up hearing protection and see if that helps. Again, cheap insurance.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

This is Mark Ouellette’s bailiwick. Perhaps he can weigh in on over pressure and concussive energy.

Thanks Jay @Altitude sickness I may not be a scientist but I've assisted many on development projects...

Muzzle Blast compresses the air or atmosphere around us causing atmospheric overpressure. For a brief amount or time, this is much like the water pressure undersea. Now let’s put this into even simpler terms.

Most people have experienced a far too loud stereo with its bass tones set to maximum. We feel every bump and thump enough to give us headaches. Why, because the stereo speakers compressed the air which in turn decompressed in our direction. Thump, thump, thump against our heads.

What we feel is not only the sound in our ears, which also is caused by atmospheric overpressure, the overpressure affects our entire bodies. But perhaps most or all, our brains that float in fluid. “Inside the skull, the brain floats in a jelly-like substance called cerebrospinal fluid (CSF). CSF protects, nourishes, and cleans the brain.” https://www.brainfacts.org/diseases...e-watered-down-brain-and-hydrocephalus-102620

A fast push of over pressured air against the human body can cause a brain to move within the fluid. With enough of an atmospheric push, a brain could bounce of the inside of its skull. This occurs with an underbody blast when a vehicle hits a mine. Shrapnel rips the bottom of the vehicle apart and pushes the vehicle upward. Faster than the physical force moving upward is the supersonic shock wave of the high explosive of the mine. That shock wave, yes really high and fast moving overpressure, goes through our bodies. Similarily, one "feels" artillery.

Now let’s consider the think about the atmospheric over pressure from muzzle blast or our big bore rifles. Sound which is overpressure, is measured in decibels. Most rifles produce around 165 decibels, https://proears.com/loudest-guns/ Sound intensity doubles every 3 db because decibels increase is logarithmic rather than linear. https://audiochamps.com/is-3db-or-6db-twice-as-loud/

Decible are a measure in amplitude. What most are unaware of is that sound also has duration. How long a sound or atmospheric overpressure last also affects humans. I don’t have a reference but from the research range, the total effects of overpressure of a weapon increase with the square of the bore. The bigger the bore, the more overpressure. If a .30 produces a level or 9, a .40 produces a level of 16, and a .50 produces a level of 25. These numbers are a sophisticated wild ass guess (SWAG), but hopefully you understand.

US Soldiers are only allowed in training to shoot a maximum of three rockets or missiels per day, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder-fired_missile , Mk 153 SMAW, Javelin, Carl Gustaf 8.4 cm recoilless rifle. Those have really large bores and high decibles blasts producing massive over pressure for a substantial to the brain amount of time. Three hits (over pressures) to the brains and humans need a rest.

For large sporting arms and their shooters, every person is a little different in their tolerance. I have found I can shoot a couple dozen shots with my .458 Win. Somedays I’ve shot near 50 times with combined .375, .416, and .458 Win. But when I shoot my .450 Rigby, ten rounds and I have a small headache.

Overall,

• Gun fit is very important to perceived recoil.
• Better shooting form will reduce stress and pain on the body.
• A heavier rifle recoils less than a lighter rifle if all else is the same.
• Longer barrels will reduce felt muzzle blast (over pressure) somewhat.
• Larger bores produce longer duration overpressure.
• Muzzle breaks are obnoxious. They release pressure laterally from the bore and closer to the shooter.
• And each and every person is a little different. Shoot the more powerful rifle you can shoot accurately and that doesn’t punish the body each and every shot!

 

[Altitude sickness]

Thanks Mark. Shooting the .50 BMG with large muzzle break too many times impacts me by a general feeling that I just don’t feel well. Nothing concrete. No headache just an overall feeling.

So that rearward muzzle blast must create too much overpressure.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Are you shooting lighter bullets for practice? If 400 gr, what powder are you using to get velocity that slow without pushing out primers?

I am shooting 400 grain cast bullets in front of 36 grains of 5744. Using magnum primer in Normal and Hornady brass. Velocity's is about 1800 fps. A very mild load that shoots the same approximate POI as my hunting load - 400 grain SAF at 2250 fps using N150 and magnum primers.

 

[Jim Golden]

I'm a big believer in the A-Square Coil-Chek stock. I built my first rifle on a M1917 action with this stock in .375 Weatherby. It's got a long barrel and I chronographed it (on edit, a 300gr...that's all I shoot out of it) at 2889 ft/s. That's about 5560 ft-lbs of energy, so no slouch. I was scared to death of it. But shooting from a standup bench, it's a pussycat. Art Alphin's stock design has a huge butt, a conical shaped pistol grip, and a tapered (getting wider as you go forward) forearm. It's ugly as sin, but it works. The huge butt pushes your entire upper body, not just your shoulder. And the tapered pistol grip and forearm lock your two arms into position. So the recoil has to basically move your entire upper body, not just your shoulder. So now you're moving 100 pounds and not just 20. F = MA. So the Force is constant, but if the Mass goes up by a factor of 5, then the acceleration goes down by a factor of 5. It works. I also put a 16 ounce mercury recoil reducer in the butt stock. I've shot 50 rounds out of it at a time and no pain. And I'm closing in on .378 Weatherby ballistics with it. Plus, you can use the stock as a boat paddle All jokes aside, I'm building a second rifle in .460 Weatherby using the same type action and same stock. This one will be open sights only, but will have two mercury recoil reducers in the butt stock...a 16oz and a 12oz. MPI stocks will make you one of these. I use a super huge Kick-Ez recoil pad. I hope I can shoot it OK. If not, I'll load it down some, but I want to the full house loads so we'll see. Best of luck!

 

[Jim Golden]

 

[HankBuck]

The animals will not notice the difference. In fact, the much higher SD of the 375 slugs (pushed at greater V) makes for better penetration than the entry level 458 (the WM.) Due to pressure and (gun/bullet) weight differences, the 375 HH is much more pleasurable to shoot than the 458 WM (Same reasoning for the 416 Rigby, even better for DG,) but the 375 is the all-around PG/DG African slayer! The advent of the 350 gr 375 DG slugs makes its difference from the 416s almost insignificant on DG, and you can take PG at longer range, more comfortably (something you're NOT doing w/ a 458 WM.) Retina damage?? At first I thought you were worried about the elephant's eyes...SMH. Shoulder damage is the most commonly reported older age ailment for frequent Big bore flyers! You must first See, to Shoot. Check out Kevin Robertson's comprehensive chart comparing recoil energy of typical African guns...Admittedly, my 416 Chatfield-Taylor (416-458 WM) develops the exact same V and E of every other 416, but it's at higher pressure due to the shorter cartridge, and heavy handloads kick like hell (until you add 2 Hg recoil reducers, the best pad, mag loaded to capacity, sling w/ extra rounds in loops (or on stock), ALL steel mounts, the best scope available, maybe magnaporting or brake, and as noted above a proper LOP and form!! GL. This thread reads like that kid in Christmas story graduated to Africa! "You'll shoot your eye out!!" *Bear in-mind that the chart is an average from a bunch of hot handloads. Actual factory 458 WM is often 2,090 FPS (considerably less) for DG loads. View attachment 687129

@C.W. Richter - regarding “Shoulder Damage” to older shooters, it is common for “Older” men to develop shoulder damage regardless of if they Shoot to Don’t Shoot and especially if they played (or play) sports. Shoulder joints, knee & hip joints can just “wear out” and while shooting can exacerbate it there are many causes - with Older Age near the top of the list.. I don’t think I would factor my “shoulders” into my rifle/cartridge selection…but I would consider my “flinching” and trying to avoid it. Also, my ability to shoot it accurately. I know that I shoot light recoiling rifles more accurately then Magnums and anything over .30-06 starts to Get-My-Attention. A .375 is my upper limit and even that will Not be as accurate for me as a .30-06 and especially after 10-15 practice rounds are fired.

 

[Doug3006]

I’ve met my match and his name is Lott! My 458 Lott generates as much recoil as I can handle, and this is after adding 1.5 lbs of combined weight to the stock, fore and aft. I’ve never developed physical symptoms like retina issues or body pains. My problem is a flinch I develop whenever I worry about recoil. My solution is simple. I retired the Lott and have switched to the 416 Rigby for big, nasty stuff. I don’t ever worry about recoil with it. As far as effectiveness, I think the Rigby is good enough for anything I will chase. Certainly it’s more than adequate for buffalo.

 

[pilar]

Thanks Mark. Shooting the .50 BMG with large muzzle break too many times impacts me by a general feeling that I just don’t feel well. Nothing concrete. No headache just an overall feeling.

So that rearward muzzle blast must create too much overpressure.

I don’t want to shoot a 50 BMG ever again
It was a bolt action Barret , and I shot it laying on a shooting mat
The over pressure was so strong , it made my nose sling snot and keeps running
And my eyes to water, way worse then the howitzer they blast off after a touchdown @ the Texas A&M games

 

[hoytcanon]

Oh, geez...

 

[Hillbilly Marine]

I reread this post. I once had a 7 mm rem mag- not a big gun by any standards - wood stock so heavy enough - that kicked harder than anything I have ever shot, including 3.5 12 gauge and big bore rifles. Instant headache. I got rid of it after 1 session at the range. Just brainstorming but maybe try the same caliber in a different gun.

The worst feeling recoil I ever experienced was a .300 WinMag out of what I was told was a stock Remington 700. My buddies .460 Weatherby hurt less for one round. I agree that the same round in a different rifle might make a difference or a slightly lighter load.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I'm a big believer in the A-Square Coil-Chek stock. I built my first rifle on a M1917 action with this stock in .375 Weatherby. It's got a long barrel and I chronographed it (on edit, a 300gr...that's all I shoot out of it) at 2889 ft/s. That's about 5560 ft-lbs of energy, so no slouch. I was scared to death of it. But shooting from a standup bench, it's a pussycat. Art Alphin's stock design has a huge butt, a conical shaped pistol grip, and a tapered (getting wider as you go forward) forearm. It's ugly as sin, but it works. The huge butt pushes your entire upper body, not just your shoulder. And the tapered pistol grip and forearm lock your two arms into position. So the recoil has to basically move your entire upper body, not just your shoulder. So now you're moving 100 pounds and not just 20. F = MA. So the Force is constant, but if the Mass goes up by a factor of 5, then the acceleration goes down by a factor of 5. It works. I also put a 16 ounce mercury recoil reducer in the butt stock. I've shot 50 rounds out of it at a time and no pain. And I'm closing in on .378 Weatherby ballistics with it. Plus, you can use the stock as a boat paddle All jokes aside, I'm building a second rifle in .460 Weatherby using the same type action and same stock. This one will be open sights only, but will have two mercury recoil reducers in the butt stock...a 16oz and a 12oz. MPI stocks will make you one of these. I use a super huge Kick-Ez recoil pad. I hope I can shoot it OK. If not, I'll load it down some, but I want to the full house loads so we'll see. Best of luck!

agreed. they are ugly, but it's simple physics Art Alphin used in its development...the same logic that allows big ag equipment to operate in wet field conditions (and extremely heavy tanks/earthmoving equipment on treadles) using large surface area tires (reduces lbs/ft2). If you increase the surface area of the butt (the portion in-contact with the body,) by the desired % the felt recoil is reduced similarly. Some of the old pads were installed/finished in more of a mushroom shape (also odd,) but they served to reduce recoil even further. Blast is one thing, but the actual ft-lbs imparted to the body cannot be dismissed. They can cut bbl and brake ports directed away from the shooter, too. They are NO good on the ears, but they do serve a purpose in certain cases (for me, for precision long-range shooting where you can easily put ear protection on in advance.) 'Ear protection where you can hear clearly is paramount in DG situations...I'm sure there are others, but a particular video of Peter Capstick firing a .577 double comes to mind (it's shown again in slow-motion and the wave of energy imparted to his body appears clearly unhealthy!!!) If only Fletcher Jamieson "Chimpongoni" (one who never misses) were still around, he'd school you on this very topic by explaining what #4 bore muzzleloaders did to his body! (i just believed him and love my big .264s! lol Some PHs have seen them and said I could take buff or ele with 'em using solids/head shots, but haven't taken them up on their offers as of yet.) IF hemmingway did it w/ his fav '06/220 gr FMJs, the aforementioned is absolutely possible, as proven prior by Jamieson, Bell, et. al.

We all wish to hear of how you successfully prevented full and complete liquefaction of your cranial area and its equally important appliances, by solving your 458 WM's dilemma. Did you mention above how much it weighs?? Med-big bore American rifles are famous for being underweight, as-is. My ancestors used to run into this guy by the name of Jack Roy on some old, famous range on LI, NY. He'd only shoot big bore doubles and even custom drillings of same...Although he had to stop shooting in-favor of stunt diving in AC, NJ (and I'm not a Dr.,) I really don't see any issues...IF it gets to the point you start looking like Marty Feldman, it's probably time to fix both issues! (RIP both of those gents-they'd be a riot on Safari or in a safari-themed movie!!)