Tim Sundles 4 shots of 600 NE into Buff

[grand veneur]

How is the recoil and penetration of the 460 WBY compared to the 458 Lott?

With the full load, the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum is definitely superior to the 458 Lott in everything, including recoil and penetration. I have written quite a bit about the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum on the Forum. The effectiveness of a cartridge is not measured by recoil, but it is often so on the Forum's. Let us stay with the cartridge 600 Nitro Express with all its problems, where the recoil is only one of them.

 

[Rifleman97]

I’ll bite. How did someone/something get a piece of plastic to go 15K/hour? Incredible damage.

Light-gas gun - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Pretty neat tech

 

[Rifleman97]

378 WBY?

Has anyone ever built a custom rifle stock setup for the 378 WBY with a muzzle brake to tame the recoil?

Imo you don’t even need a brake, the problem with the mark V it comes in is that it weighs like 7.5-8 pounds. Just threw some numbers into a recoil calculator (3160fps with 270 grain, 105 grains powder) and If it came in a 11 pound gun it would kick extremely similarly to the 416 rigby. (54ft lbs) More than any other hunting 37’s, but there’s not very many people on this forum that would claim a 416 rigby is un shootable or unmanageable. More recoil than some can handle sure, but you can definitely handle it with some practice.

But, change the gun weight to 8 pounds and the recoil becomes a staggering 75 ft pounds with roughly 25 fps of recoil velocity. While there’s definitely some nitro express cartridges and wildcats that kick more, 75 is getting up there where many or most people can’t shoot it for long without developing a severe flinch.

I think the weatherby Africa cartridges have a ton of merit, as long as they’re not in a weatherby rifle. 3160fps with a 270 grain makes for some dead flat shooting of plains game, and enough velocity to have a bit of the weatherby effect, plus more penetration. Especially with bullets like the north fork spritzer which can handle the speed

 

[Ontario Hunter]

A projectile must retain enough kinetic energy to continue moving for a long time, even in a medium, no matter how strong it is. This is achieved primarily through the speed and mass of the projectile. The caliber of a projectile does not play the primary role; the length and diameter are determined by the weight of the projectile and also by internal ballistic parameters. How high the impact velocity is and how much more a projectile must be very strong designed. Anti tank ammo is a good example.

For shooting game according this concepts, at some point only solid bullets will be considered. Deformation or fragmentation of a bullet no longer play a role, on the contrary, can have a negative impact. What kills is the great temporary cavitation that results by the use of such high velocity bullets, but a cavitation which has to occur on the right place, meaning after a good shot placement. There is primary no schock, otherwise the initial belief that it is enough to hit a game somewhere to incapacitate it would be true, which is not the case. The discussion about the working of the 257 Weatherby Magnum cartridge illustrates some of this.

The Weatherby concept was therefore not bad in theory and for this reason the cartridge 378 Weatherby Magnum was rightly considered the maximum needed to kill the heaviest animals. Theoretically, that may be true, but in practice, for a lot of reasons, things turned out differently. You cannot mix highly modern ballistic concepts with old traditional hunting and shooting concepts. This is also the case when talking about the old cartridge 600 Nitro Express.

Laws of physics seem to tell me you are correct ... and incorrect. A 500 Nitro solid after impact should retain about the same diameter as a perfectly mushroomed well constructed modern 375 bullet. If the 375 bullet has enough gas, it can penatrate just as well as the fat and much heavier solid 500 bullet with its greater inertia/mass. Remember, equally fat and blunt bullets encounter equal resistance which means equal energy imparted after impact. The difference is how straight and how long that energy is imparted after impact, especially after impacting bone. A 500 solid is more likely to retain its shape and mass after impact, making its post impact trajectory more predictable than a mushroomed 375 bullet.

The other difference is, of course, the energy imparted before impact. Not all of us find carrying a ballistic missile launcher in the field terribly enjoyable. Firing one from the shoulder even less enjoyable. For about the same result I would choose to forgo the self inflicting punishment of anything bigger than 416. I'm not convinced the merits outweigh the disadvantages.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Imo you don’t even need a brake, the problem with the mark V it comes in is that it weighs like 7.5-8 pounds. Just threw some numbers into a recoil calculator (3160fps with 270 grain, 105 grains powder) and If it came in a 11 pound gun it would kick extremely similarly to the 416 rigby. (54ft lbs) More than any other hunting 37’s, but there’s not very many people on this forum that would claim a 416 rigby is un shootable or unmanageable. More recoil than some can handle sure, but you can definitely handle it with some practice.

But, change the gun weight to 8 pounds and the recoil becomes a staggering 75 ft pounds with roughly 25 fps of recoil velocity. While there’s definitely some nitro express cartridges and wildcats that kick more, 75 is getting up there where many or most people can’t shoot it for long without developing a severe flinch.

I think the weatherby Africa cartridges have a ton of merit, as long as they’re not in a weatherby rifle. 3160fps with a 270 grain makes for some dead flat shooting of plains game, and enough velocity to have a bit of the weatherby effect, plus more penetration. Especially with bullets like the north fork spritzer which can handle the speed

An 8 lb 378 Weatherby? How did they ever manage to sell them? Good looks I guess. And there's the Weatherby "superiority complex." Roy was a marketing genius. Someone needs to write an unauthorized business history of that company.

 

[Choupique]

I'm not a believer in "hydrostatic shock."

Its not a thing in the way weatherby used to pitch it. There is definitely a temporary wound cavity and a permanent one that results from a bullet going fast and encountering resistance, and shrapnel damage from bones and bullet pieces that result in internal nastiness. I think sometimes you also hit the right nerves with enough pressure to temporarily disrupt them, and with all the other bad stuff going on from a bullet impact it never really recovers. That's the only reason I can see for some of the bang-flops I've seen on deer where there wasn't a major bone or CNS impact.

There's no secret sauce. You incapacitate an animal in one of 4 ways. You break the nervous system, you break critical bone structure, you drop the blood pressure too low, or you drown/suffocate it. That's basically all there is to it, and thats basically the quickest way to the slowest way that you can do it. You cant shoot it in the ass with a 460 weatherby and burst all the blood vessels in its brain or give it a heart attack.

Me personally, id rather have my .338 win mag on a buffalo hunt than a 600 nitro, because I know 100% for sure no doubt that .338 bullet is going to go where I want it to go on the first shot and its bringing enough with it when it gets there. That big 14 pound iron sight 600 double? Ehhhhhhhhhhhh......... Plenty plenty plenty horsepower. The bullet is going in bigger around than my .338 bullet will ever get. Its just going to be going in the dirt, or in a tree, or into orbit, or into the buffalos guts.

 

[RedTag]

Horsepower v. Torque

 

[Rifleman97]

An 8 lb 378 Weatherby? How did they ever manage to sell them? Good looks I guess. And there's the Weatherby "superiority complex." Roy was a marketing genius. Someone needs to write an unauthorized business history of that company.

I agree, but those light rifles (more modern ones are closer to 9 pounds but still sub 9) are the reason everyone hates weatherby cartridges. It’s unfortunate because the cartridges themselves are actually really great.

Say what you want about the double radius shoulder but for such large fat minimal taper bullets… they actually feed really well for me. Maybe I’m lucky, but they have a lot of merit in a gun that isn’t a weatherby. Maybe if weatherby ever made a proper safari gun in a proper weight.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Light-gas gun - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Pretty neat tech

Very interesting. Thanks.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I agree, but those light rifles (more modern ones are closer to 9 pounds but still sub 9) are the reason everyone hates weatherby cartridges. It’s unfortunate because the cartridges themselves are actually really great.

Say what you want about the double radius shoulder but for such large fat minimal taper bullets… they actually feed really well for me. Maybe I’m lucky, but they have a lot of merit in a gun that isn’t a weatherby. Maybe if weatherby ever made a proper safari gun in a proper weight.

It may be a great cartridge but the not-so-great thing is it's proprietary ... or it was back in my day. Have to buy Weatherby ammo from Weatherby = +$$$. Did I say he was a marketing genius?

I built a 404J on standard action Mauser. And I could build a 375 H&H or 416 Rigby on one after removing a bit of locking ring to clear ejecting loaded cartridges (which, contrary to popular myth, in no way compromises the action's strength). However, I would be quite reluctant to attempt building a 378 Weatherby on a similar standard length action. Modifying the rails and ramp to feed that cartridge's sharp shoulder would likely be problematic ... in the extreme I suspect. I would be interested to know if anyone has succeeded in such a project? I presume your Weatherby cartridge is on another platform?

 

[skydiver386]

I agree, but those light rifles (more modern ones are closer to 9 pounds but still sub 9) are the reason everyone hates weatherby cartridges. It’s unfortunate because the cartridges themselves are actually really great.

Say what you want about the double radius shoulder but for such large fat minimal taper bullets… they actually feed really well for me. Maybe I’m lucky, but they have a lot of merit in a gun that isn’t a weatherby. Maybe if weatherby ever made a proper safari gun in a proper weight.

Precisely what I've said. Rifle weight v power level is a key factor.

I've read this book several times, and in my opinion, Roy was right on some things, and totally wrong on others.

Making Weatherby rifles to light for their power level was among the biggest of his mistakes.

 

[grand veneur]

Laws of physics seem to tell me you are correct ... and incorrect. A 500 Nitro solid after impact should retain about the same diameter as a perfectly mushroomed well constructed modern 375 bullet. If the 375 bullet has enough gas, it can penatrate just as well as the fat and much heavier solid 500 bullet with its greater inertia/mass. Remember, equally fat and blunt bullets encounter equal resistance which means equal energy imparted after impact. The difference is how straight and how long that energy is imparted after impact, especially after impacting bone. A 500 solid is more likely to retain its shape and mass after impact, making its post impact trajectory more predictable than a mushroomed 375 bullet.

The other difference is, of course, the energy imparted before impact. Not all of us find carrying a ballistic missile launcher in the field terribly enjoyable. Firing one from the shoulder even less enjoyable. For about the same result I would choose to forgo the self inflicting punishment of anything bigger than 416. I'm not convinced the merits outweigh the disadvantages.

It is not as simple as it is often reported in various shooting and hunting magazines. You have to read scientific reports from military and forensic publications. What applies to humans also applies to animals. What is depicted in a gelatin block gives a realistic impression of what can temporarily occur in a body. There are several illustrations in papers, books and on the internet so that anyone can imagine what happens in practice depending on the caliber, bullet and the impact velocity. Sure, it is difficult to take into account the site of the placement of a bullet in a living body and the various types of internal injuries that can result.

As for the rifles needed to shoot very heavy game with high-velocity bullets, such rifles are hardly suitable for hunters and therefore this concept has not really caught on.

 

[grand veneur]

Precisely what I've said. Rifle weight v power level is a key factor.

View attachment 686717

I've read this book several times, and in my opinion, Roy was right on some things, and totally wrong on others.

Making Weatherby rifles to light for their power level was among the biggest of his mistakes.

Roy Weatherby was right with his concept, but it was very difficult to implement it with the cartridge 378 Weatherby Magnum as a cartridge that represents the ultimate for hunting heavy dangerous game. It failed because of the bullet construction and especially because of the rifle that would have been needed to exploit the full potential of such a cartridge.

 

[skydiver386]

Roy Weatherby was right with his concept, but it was very difficult to implement it with the cartridge 378 Weatherby Magnum as a cartridge that represents the ultimate for hunting heavy dangerous game. It failed because of the bullet construction and especially because of the rifle that would have been needed to exploit the full potential of such a cartridge.

I agree. In an 11 pound rifle, and loaded with modern bullets, the 378 and 460 would have probably met with far more success.

I also believe if the Weatherby ammunition had not been loaded by Norma to such excessive pressures, and the freebore ahead of the chamber eliminated, these rifles would have been much more accurate.

I have nothing against big bore double rifles, but if Weatherby rifles had been build on controlled round feed actions, the ammo had been loaded to more reasonable pressures, mono or bonded core bullets had been available, and the freebore minimized, big bore doubles would be far less popular today.

All big bore rifle fans feel free to fire away!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I agree. In an 11 pound rifle, and loaded with modern bullets, the 378 and 460 would have probably met with far more success.

I also believe if the Weatherby ammunition had not been loaded by Norma to such excessive pressures, and the freebore ahead of the chamber eliminated, these rifles would have been much more accurate.

I have nothing against big bore double rifles, but if Weatherby rifles had been build on controlled round feed actions, the ammo had been loaded to more reasonable pressures, mono or bonded core bullets had been available, and the freebore minimized, big bore doubles would be far less popular today.

All big bore rifle fans feel free to fire away!

I disagree. Effectiveness really does not factor into the popularity (real or imagined) of big bore doubles. It's the nostalgia. Dudes who want to play act Hemingway or Granger. Weatherby overblown magnums succeeded in North America because the market there was, and still is, more inclined to innovation gimmicks than nostalgic imagery. Even if his rifles had been designed more in line with classic British bolt DGR rifles (i.e. fancy wood & bluing, external crossbolts, CRF actions, correct chambering, heavier rifles, etc.) the competition in that field was unbeatable. Even if Weatherby's cartridges were superior and his rifles had not been flawed, I just can't see how he could have pushed his way into the African scene effectively. It's not a market that is attracted to new gimmicks, regardless of effectiveness. That's rather obvious from what I'm reading on this forum.

 

[375Fox]

I disagree. Effectiveness really does not factor into the popularity (real or imagined) of big bore doubles. It's the nostalgia. Dudes who want to play act Hemingway or Granger. Weatherby overblown magnums succeeded in North America because the market there was, and still is, more inclined to innovation gimmicks than nostalgic imagery. Even if his rifles had been designed more in line with classic British bolt DGR rifles (i.e. fancy wood & bluing, external crossbolts, CRF actions, correct chambering, heavier rifles, etc.) the competition in that field was unbeatable. Even if Weatherby's cartridges were superior and his rifles had not been flawed, I just can't see how he could have pushed his way into the African scene effectively. It's not a market that is attracted to new gimmicks, regardless of effectiveness. That's rather obvious from what I'm reading on this forum.

You might consider looking up when Weatherby came out with their dangerous game cartridges and compare to cartridges like the 458 win, 458 Lott, 416 Remington, etc. There was a market for quality bolt rifles in dangerous game calibers at the time.

 

[375Fox]

I have nothing against big bore double rifles, but if Weatherby rifles had been build on controlled round feed actions, the ammo had been loaded to more reasonable pressures, mono or bonded core bullets had been available, and the freebore minimized, big bore doubles would be far less popular today.

All big bore rifle fans feel free to fire away!

I don’t think bolt actions compete with doubles. It’s two separate markets, but I completely agree Weatherby cartridges would have a completely different reputation today if quality bonded or monolithic bullets were available. Cup and core bullet technology was far behind weatherby ballistics.

 

[Rifleman97]

Modifying the rails and ramp to feed that cartridge's sharp shoulder would likely be problematic ... in the extreme I suspect. I would be interested to know if anyone has succeeded in such a project? I presume your Weatherby cartridge is on another platform?

I had a custom defiance machine action 30-378, before that I had a mark V accumark. Currently my only weatherby cartridge rifle is a vanguard in 257 for my out of state deer gun, (starting this coming deer season it’ll now be my primary deer gun since I no longer live in a straight wall state, until I buy or build a nicer rifle for the same cartridge)

The defiance 30-378 with the defiance machine bdl bottom metal fed wonderfully, but the smith who built it did some basic work to feed well when I had him chamber it. I think it was only an extra 150 8 years ago so it couldn’t have taken him much time to get it right.

The vanguard (howa) 257 feeds remarkably well so far. Even trying to feed it in a way where it jams it doesn’t seem to catch on anything. I believe the vanguard is the best rifle you can get under $850, mine was under 600 and shoots ridiculously well. The stock is nicer than the base howa.

Despite the sharp shoulders they are still at an angle and the curves seem to make it not catch as much as you might think.

I agree. In an 11 pound rifle, and loaded with modern bullets, the 378 and 460 would have probably met with far more success.

I also believe if the Weatherby ammunition had not been loaded by Norma to such excessive pressures, and the freebore ahead of the chamber eliminated, these rifles would have been much more accurate.

I have nothing against big bore double rifles, but if Weatherby rifles had been build on controlled round feed actions, the ammo had been loaded to more reasonable pressures, mono or bonded core bullets had been available, and the freebore minimized, big bore doubles would be far less popular today.

All big bore rifle fans feel free to fire away!

100% but I do think the big bore doubles would still be just as popular for nostalgia reasons. I think they’d more take away from the 458 Lott and 416 rem.

 

[grand veneur]

I disagree. Effectiveness really does not factor into the popularity (real or imagined) of big bore doubles. It's the nostalgia. Dudes who want to play act Hemingway or Granger. Weatherby overblown magnums succeeded in North America because the market there was, and still is, more inclined to innovation gimmicks than nostalgic imagery. Even if his rifles had been designed more in line with classic British bolt DGR rifles (i.e. fancy wood & bluing, external crossbolts, CRF actions, correct chambering, heavier rifles, etc.) the competition in that field was unbeatable. Even if Weatherby's cartridges were superior and his rifles had not been flawed, I just can't see how he could have pushed his way into the African scene effectively. It's not a market that is attracted to new gimmicks, regardless of effectiveness. That's rather obvious from what I'm reading on this forum.

Not sure, the time was favorable to have a more modern alternative to the outdated English big bore cartridges which were not longer available one after the other anyway.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Who knows. Thank God he cont's to do what he does for Ammo!