Politics

[Graham Hunter]

What ever do you mean it’s just “trolling” we’ve heard that for a couple hundred pages on here as if that’s proper behaviour for a world leader. In the eyes of the maga faithful the tangerine tyrant can do no wrong.

Where did I say trolling?

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

I dont think it has anything to do with no interest in allies..

its a basic business premiss..

If Im in a position of power and leverage.. I don't enter into negotiations on neutral turf.. and I certainly don't do it on the opposing party turf... I dictate the basic terms (when I will be available, what I am prepared to speak to or work on, where the meeting will occur, etc.. ).. when two truly even parties want to negotiate or work out a deal, then you might figure out something more in "the middle"..

At the end of the day, Trump sees this (as do most Americans) as Canada having the weaker hand to play.. so why would the US allow Canada to make any demands (to include when and where meetings occur)?

Regarding west coast fires.. well.. there are a couple of other issues at play there.. and that's wholly unrelated to tariffs (although I get your argument that Canadians now may not "like" Americans, therefore why risk their lives?

The first issue is Americans often go to Canada to fight fires as well.. for example, in 2023 the US sent 2700 fire fighters to Canada to fight your western wildfires..

Contrast that to the 200 Ontario firefighters, 60 Quebec firefighters and 100 firefighters from Toronto proper that deployed to California earlier this year to help with their wildfires..

You also have multiple international agreements in place that require the US, Canada, New Zealand, Mexico, and a few other countries to assist each other in the event of large scale fires.. you cant bitch about NAFTA/USMCA and demand the US honor it (it has even in light of the tariffs) but then threaten to walk away from other international agreements (unless of course you want all international agreements taken off the table)..

You cite Canada helping out post Katrina with rescue teams and supplies.. that's absolutely true..

But you fail to mention US personnel deploying rescue teams and supplies to Canada to assist when the Halifax Explosion occurred.. (point being we have sent rescue teams back and forth to assist each other for well over 100 years)...

You act like the relationship has historically been a one way street with Canada continually rushing to aid its southern neighbor in a time of need.. without recognizing it has indeed been a two way street and Canada has relied on the US just as often, and more often than not, the US has responded with far greater numbers of people, far greater supplies, and far greater dollars involved..

When America started meaning America only depends on context.. most people around the world refer to the US as "America" somewhat loosely and as an abbreviation.. since it is the United States of America... I know of almost no one that refers to North America as "America" as an abbreviation since that might lead to confusion (is South America or Central America not also "America"?

How I think it effects relationships going forward... I think it depends..

Can Canadians think analytically? Or are responses going to be emotionally based?

If Canadians gravitate toward emotion.. then clearly the relationship will be harmed long term...

That said.. Im not sure a substantial number of Americans (US Citizens) care.. at least not enough to push Trump out of office early or to force changes on him from Congress or the Courts...

If Canadians gravitate toward fact and analytical thought.. I think the relationship can recover fairly quickly.. at the end of the day all anyone wants is a better life for themselves and their children.. whether Trump is a dick or a hero is inconsequential.. in 3.5 years he'll no longer be POTUS..

But Canadas response today may well impact Canada for much longer than 3.5 years if they cant figure out how to play the game and come out with minimal scratches and bruises in the near term..

It wasn’t my intention to express it as thought it was one sided, the point I’m trying to convey and doing a poor job of is why are we throwing away a 150 years of cross border cooperation and relationships over greed. Now and going forward every interaction will be tainted by this period of time.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

What ever do you mean it’s just “trolling” we’ve heard that for a couple hundred pages on here as if that’s proper behaviour for a world leader. In the eyes of the maga faithful the tangerine tyrant can do no wrong.

Tangerine Tyrant, now that's funny.
But as I would say during Trumps first term, "Trump is an Axxhole, but he's my Axxhole"!

To all our Canadian friends, we are still brothers under arms and have so much more in common than we have differences. I do not consider myself MAGA faithful but I support most of what Trump is trying to do. Even if his methods are questionable.

Trump's modus operandi is to throw a handful of crap against the wall and see what sticks.
Let's all hang in there!

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Where did I say trolling?

You never sir I was using your post to make a point about others who down play his actions.

 

[USN]

India launched strike against Pakistan. Pakistan artillery retaliates. Supposedly India will cut off water.
Very fluid situation and all reports are not to be trusted till after verification from multiple sources.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Tangerine Tyrant, now that's funny.
But as I would say during Trumps first term, "Trump is an Axxhole, but he's my Axxhole"!

To all our Canadian friends, we are still brothers under arms and have so much more in common than we have differences. I do not consider myself MAGA faithful but I support most of what Trump is trying to do. Even if his methods are questionable.

Trump's modus operandi is to throw a handful of crap against the wall and see what sticks.
Let's all hang in there!

Wish I could truly take credit for that one my skipper come up with it the other day on the water, I figured sense some of us are always getting accused of saying orange man bad anyway it would get a laugh.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Tangerine Tyrant... funniest thing I have seen today.

Well played sir.

MAGA: We represent the Tangerine Tyrant... the Tangerine Tyrant... the Tangerine Tyrant...

 

[mdwest]

It wasn’t my intention to express it as thought it was one sided, the point I’m trying to convey and doing a poor job of is why are we throwing away a 150 years of cross border cooperation and relationships over greed. Now and going forward every interaction will be tainted by this period of time.

We're very likely agreeing and not seeing it again lol...

My position is it doesn't have to be tainted..

Trump is a dick.. so what?

Trump over states things all the time... so what?

in 3.5 years he will be gone...

So find a way to deal with it.. listen to what he says.. filter out the white noise (there is a ton of it.. and admittedly that's hard to do at times)... and get to the meat and potatoes of the matter..

He said very clearly today he doesn't want the US buying vehicles made in Canada.. or even 50% made in Canada.. he wants the US automotive industry to move back entirely to the US.. he also said very clearly that he doesn't want the US buying Canadian steel.. he wants the US steel industry to grow again and to produce all of the steel the US needs..

ok.. so that's really going to suck for Canada.. that's tens of thousands of jobs and billions upon billions of dollars on just those two things alone..

So what is Canada prepared to do about it?

Trump NEVER leads with his best and final offer (BAFO).. there is ALWAYS room for negotiation..

So if Canada wants to retain those automotive jobs.. what case does it make to the Trump administration for Canada being the best possible choice for the US?

Canada employing people and Canada making money isn't a good argument...

Could a case be made where Canadian made can be cheaper for US buyers? Could a case be made where the USG could share in the profits in some way by letting those industries stay in Canada (tariffs? but tariffs low enough that they don't kill the industry, but allow the USG get a taste of the action?)... Could a case be made where Canada keeps the ability to export cars to the US, but gives ground somewhere else where the US could benefit?

What wont be agreed to is the current status quo.. Canada will have to give something up.. there's no getting around that..

kicking, screaming, and responding with emotion wont help.. if anything that will further embolden Lutnick, Bessent, Trump, et al.. and if Canada doesn't take the opportunity to put sensible options on the table all that does is leave the US in a position to tell Canada what it thinks is most sensible (i.e. the Doug Ford tactic of making threats and offering no solutions didn't fare well at all... while the Mexico approach of telling Trump "hey dude.. we understand what you're feeling.. how about we offer to do XXXX, YYYY, and ZZZZ rather than that A, B, C, stuff you asked for.. would that work for you?" has worked for the Mexicans very well so far..

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Presumably that's because the Halifax Explosion occurred more than a century ago, in 1917

One would think that if the situation was remotely close to what you describe, there would be something approaching a contemporary example...

One would assume he used the Halifax explosion as and example knowing his audience, he was talking to a Nova Scotian.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

We're very likely agreeing and not seeing it again lol...

My position is it doesn't have to be tainted..

Trump is a dick.. so what?

Trump over states things all the time... so what?

in 3.5 years he will be gone...

So find a way to deal with it.. listen to what he says.. filter out the white noise (there is a ton of it.. and admittedly that's hard to do at times)... and get to the meat and potatoes of the matter..

He said very clearly today he doesn't want the US buying vehicles made in Canada.. or even 50% made in Canada.. he wants the US automotive industry to move back entirely to the US.. he also said very clearly that he doesn't want the US buying Canadian steel.. he wants the US steel industry to grow again and to produce all of the steel the US needs..

ok.. so that's really going to suck for Canada.. that's tens of thousands of jobs and billions upon billions of dollars on just those two things alone..

So what is Canada prepared to do about it?

Trump NEVER leads with his best and final offer (BAFO).. there is ALWAYS room for negotiation..

So if Canada wants to retain those automotive jobs.. what case does it make to the Trump administration for Canada being the best possible choice for the US?

Canada employing people and Canada making money isn't a good argument...

Could a case be made where Canadian made can be cheaper for US buyers? Could a case be made where the USG could share in the profits in some way by letting those industries stay in Canada (tariffs? but tariffs low enough that they don't kill the industry, but allow the USG get a taste of the action?)... Could a case be made where Canada keeps the ability to export cars to the US, but gives ground somewhere else where the US could benefit?

What wont be agreed to is the current status quo.. Canada will have to give something up.. there's no getting around that..

kicking, screaming, and responding with emotion wont help.. if anything that will further embolden Lutnick, Bessent, Trump, et al.. and if Canada doesn't take the opportunity to put sensible options on the table all that does is leave the US in a position to tell Canada what it thinks is most sensible (i.e. the Doug Ford tactic of making threats and offering no solutions didn't fare well at all... while the Mexico approach of telling Trump "hey dude.. we understand what you're feeling.. how about we offer to do XXXX, YYYY, and ZZZZ rather than that A, B, C, stuff you asked for.. would that work for you?" has worked for the Mexicans very well so far..

I can’t see a way forward where it’s not tainted by this period, trump speaks of on behalf of Americans not just himself. So every lie and every belittling comment about canada represents all of you. That should have a lasting legacy far beyond 3 1/2 years. Blatantly interfering in an election and weakening Canada so he has a more favourable bargaining position should have a lasting effect on relations. Will it? Who knows Canadians are apparently pretty short sighted voters we just re-elected the liberals after all. I know personally my faith in Americans has been irrevocably shaken, I used to believe that Canada and the u.s. while having differences both worked for the betterment of North America and the world.

my one hope is that lutnick and bessent are decent enough men to negotiate from a honest set of numbers and not the “alternative facts” numbers trump keeps citing. I’ve got little hope for carney to negotiate in the best interest of Canada in any event. Allowing Chinese goods in to bypass tariffs should be a good indication of his interests.

Trump is meeting with carney in Canada next at the g7 summit in Alberta. While not a political visit to the capital it’s something and I’d consider it an act of good faith on his part. How he will be received in Alberta and how carney will be received in Alberta are both anyone’s guess.

 

[mdwest]

Lutnick and Bessent are among the best in the world at what they do.. while they are more factual and direct than Trump, and likely a whole lot easier to deal with from a media/emotion/sound bite perspective.. make no mistake... dealing with them will be like dealing with a pair of velociraptors.. they are absolute apex predators.. and they are also absolute loyalists to Trump..

The truth is Trump really does represent a full 1/3 of the population (their views very closely align with his).. and roughly another 1/4 align closely enough that they would vote for him again tomorrow if given the opportunity.. so perhaps if Canada sees Trump as representing what America stands for today, the relationship will be tainted long term..

As an alternative.. If Canada can figure out a way to put a conservative government in power.. it might find that Canadians are actually more like those Americans they currently dislike than they want to admit (take on conservative fiscal policies that would have the govt looking out for Canadian interests first, take on conservative social policies that would have the govt walking away from wokeism and DEI, etc..).. and maybe the two nations grow close again..

The next few years will certainly be telling...

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Lutnick and Bessent are among the best in the world at what they do.. while they are more factual and direct than Trump, and likely a whole lot easier to deal with from a media/emotion/sound bite perspective.. make no mistake... dealing with them will be like dealing with a pair of velociraptors.. they are absolute apex predators.. and they are also absolute loyalists to Trump..

The truth is Trump really does represent a full 1/3 of the population (their views very closely align with his).. and roughly another 1/4 align closely enough that they would vote for him again tomorrow if given the opportunity.. so perhaps if Canada sees Trump as representing what America stands for today, the relationship will be tainted long term..

As an alternative.. If Canada can figure out a way to put a conservative government in power.. it might find that Canadians are actually more like those Americans they currently dislike than they want to admit (take on conservative fiscal policies that would have the govt looking out for Canadian interests first, take on conservative social policies that would have the govt walking away from wokeism and DEI, etc..).. and maybe the two nations grow close again..

The next few years will certainly be telling...

It’s hard enough trying to get a conservative government in power without trump actively working against it. That to me was the rubicon I can understand the trade issues I can see trump using his position of power to force favourable outcomes for Americans I don’t like it but can understand it , but blatantly interfering in an election was wrong with no way to spin it.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Is lutnick really that great? Bessent seems to be “better”

 

[Boyd Brooks]

I can’t see a way forward where it’s not tainted by this period, trump speaks of on behalf of Americans not just himself. So every lie and every belittling comment about canada represents all of you. That should have a lasting legacy far beyond 3 1/2 years. Blatantly interfering in an election and weakening Canada so he has a more favourable bargaining position should have a lasting effect on relations. Will it? Who knows Canadians are apparently pretty short sighted voters we just re-elected the liberals after all. I know personally my faith in Americans has been irrevocably shaken, I used to believe that Canada and the u.s. while having differences both worked for the betterment of North America and the world.

my one hope is that lutnick and bessent are decent enough men to negotiate from a honest set of numbers and not the “alternative facts” numbers trump keeps citing. I’ve got little hope for carney to negotiate in the best interest of Canada in any event. Allowing Chinese goods in to bypass tariffs should be a good indication of his interests.

Canadians didn’t re-elect the Libiturds. It is the immigrants from 3rd world shitholes that Trudeau allowed in, in record numbers that voted them back in. Elections Canada changed electoral district boundaries next the major metropolitan areas to allow close ridings to flip to Liberal, just what happened to Poilievre who held his seat for 25 years. The Liberals will do anything to win.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Canadians didn’t re-elect the Libiturds. It is the immigrants from 3rd world shitholes that Trudeau allowed in, in record numbers that voted them back in. Elections Canada changed electoral district boundaries next the major metropolitan areas to allow close ridings to flip to Liberal, just what happened to Poilievre who held his seat for 25 years. The Liberals will do anything to win.

That is exactly why the Democrats have allowed and don’t want deported tens of millions of illegal immigrants. EVERYONE is counted in a U.S. Census. The next is 2030

• “”Redistricting:
  After each census, states must redraw their congressional and state legislative district boundaries to ensure districts have roughly equal populations. This process, known as redistricting, ensures that each citizen's vote carries roughly the same weight.
  
  
• Electoral College:
  The census data also influences the allocation of electoral votes to each state. States with larger populations receive more electoral votes, which can impact presidential election outcomes. “
  
  

 

[mdwest]

Is lutnick really that great? Bessent seems to be “better”

Different animals.. but I think equally capable and definitely equally ruthless… although very different personalities and negotiating styles.. which make them a very difficult duo to deal with..

Bessent is a hedge fund guy, deeply knowledgeable in venture capital, private equity, etc.. lots of corporate raiding experience.. lots of skills in the way of global economics, etc…

Lutnick is a career senior executive… big investor.. buys and sells businesses.. etc..

Both have been doing multi billion dollar negotiations that are incredibly complex and tied to global economy issues for decades..

Bessent typically takes a low key, matter of fact approach to his work.. finds kinks in the armor.. then exploits vulnerabilities…

Lutnick is more Trumpish.. much more extroverted.. more aggressive… pushes buttons.. and gets the opposition emotional before striking… but he’s generally more “likable” from what I can tell and easier to deal with…

I wouldn’t want to have to negotiate with either of them.. much less get caught in the middle of having to deal with both of them.. with Lutnick team coming at me from the international trade and commerce angle while Bessent is hitting me from the finance and economic angle…

 

[LivingTheDream]

It wasn’t my intention to express it as thought it was one sided, the point I’m trying to convey and doing a poor job

You aren't doing a poor job, it is just the argument you are making is emotional based rather than logical.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Different animals.. but I think equally capable and definitely equally ruthless… although very different personalities and negotiating styles.. which make them a very difficult duo to deal with..

Bessent is a hedge fund guy, deeply knowledgeable in venture capital, private equity, etc.. lots of corporate raiding experience.. lots of skills in the way of global economics, etc…

Lutnick is a career senior executive… big investor.. buys and sells businesses.. etc..

Both have been doing multi billion dollar negotiations that are incredibly complex and tied to global economy issues for decades..

Bessent typically takes a low key, matter of fact approach to his work.. finds kinks in the armor.. then exploits vulnerabilities…

Lutnick is more Trumpish.. much more extroverted.. more aggressive… pushes buttons.. and gets the opposition emotional before striking… but he’s generally more “likable” from what I can tell and easier to deal with…

I wouldn’t want to have to negotiate with either of them.. much less get caught in the middle of having to deal with both of them.. with Lutnick team coming at me from the international trade and commerce angle while Bessent is hitting me from the finance and economic angle…

So the long and short of it is with a Chinese sympathizer in power were well and truely shafted on the trade front. While also shafted on resource development by his green agenda and carbon policies, if that wasn’t enough fun for one government we get the shaft yet again on firearms policies Dark days for Canada.

 

[Wheels]

….Supposedly India will cut off water.
Very fluid situation….

Love your use of descriptive language

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

You aren't doing a poor job, it is just the argument you are making is emotional based rather than logical.

Some of it is language as well conversationally there is as much French as English used in n.s. Speaking frenglish doesn’t lend itself to intelligent conversation.