12 gauge Paradox Gun-Is it Possible to even get supplies to shoot?

[Fugazi]

Hello All-

This may seem like an odd question but honestly, Is it even possible to buy the equipment, brass, slugs, wads, etc in order to load and shoot a nitro proofed paradox gun? These guns fascinate me and the more I read and look at them, the more I want one. I am not a pure collector, I would want to hand load and shoot the thing and possibly have a "paradox safari". They are not an inexpensive to acquire, at least one that is documented, in good shape and cased. A few on the market now that are very interesting. Maybe I'm crazy, but to me a safari is as much about the guns as it is the actual taking of the critter. Love history of the firearms that come with it. Evidenced by this summers upcoming safari in Zimbabwe, its the "English Double" outing. Only guns that have 2 barrels and made in England. Looks like it will be the Manton 470 and a Webley Scott model 700 12 gauge.

Any and all info on Parardox Guns welcome, I just don't know much about them.

Thanks-

Hi
For information, 'The' book on the H&H Paradox is:

Paradox. The Story of Colonel G. V. Fosberry, Holland & Holland and the Paradox Rife Shot and Ball Gun by Baker, David J. & Lake, Roger E.​

It's pretty rare and expensive these days however.

A bit of background and a good review on the modern H&H version here:

Holland & Holland Paradox review - The Field

A weapon for all seasons – or quarry, at least – Michael Yardley finds the Holland & Holland Paradox performs well on the rifle range and clays

www.thefield.co.uk

I've been lucky enough to shoot a 12 bore Paradox hammer gun that was made in the early 1890s - superb fun and very accurate firing solids.

 

[GeorgeGibbs505]

It’s not hard at all to get the supplies to get them shooting, just takes time and perseverance to find them. I load and shoot a Bland Vice-Versa and a Gibbs 12 bore rifle, neither one are paradox, but both shoot paradox bullets unbelievably well. Here’s a few pictures.

 

[PCC600]

I'm fortunate that mine came with molds and tools. Extra bullets, wads, and paper hulls as well as a few loaded rounds. I'll share more details when I get home and find time.

Side note, I was told or read somewhere that the only "true" Paradox is a Holland and Holland. The term "Paradox gun" is proprietary to H&H.

Another great maker copied the concept and had a different word for it that eludes me at the moment. However there are great guns in the Paradox genre built by other makers.

If it's within your budget I definitely encourage you to get one.

Westley Richards came out with the 12 gauge Explora 2.5 inch chamber and Super Magnum Explora in 2.75 inch . These came out once the Fosbery patent owned by H&H for their Paradox guns had lapsed . Westley’s also made smaller gauge guns called Fauneta. Various other English makers came out with oddly named offerings .

 

[fourfive8]

Don't even know if the OP is still pursuing loading the "mystical, magical" Paradox? Getting a solid conical to adequately stabilize out of very slow twist, shallow rifled gun is a path down a deep and twisting rabbit hole . If the gun has a very slow twist in the range of 36", which is reported as standard Paradox twist, then a short conical design may stabilize OK.... if the bullet is of a diameter to take to rifling. A solid lead conical needs obturation and/or precise size/fit to groove diameter of the bore to take the rifling for rotation and stabilization. Loading those solid conicals for successful stabilization can be done in slow twist bores like the original Paradox design but will require lots of study, experimentation and perseverance along with a realization to expect frustration. Internet talk about the history of such guns, describing the secret, nearly unknown magic is one thing, loading for and getting this type gun to shoot well enough to justify it as a serious hunting tool is something else entirely. It will require a serious dedication to detail, research and lots of learning through trial and error. Components are available. Even real black powder is available if you want to go full monty. 12 ga brass shells by Magtech and black powder are available from Graf. Bullet molds for conicals of reasonable facsimile are available from Accurate Molds. Pure lead is where you can find it- local junk yard or internet search. For shotshell cards and wads- plenty available on the net. good luck

 

[steve white]

Every third one I have seen has been sleeved or bored out. Just criminal.

You would think that if they had even just shot it, they would have learned that it did not need to be bored out in order to function as a shotgun!?

 

[AES]

It is for sure possible and I am having one built as we speak. To get it done, there will be a metric ton of annoyance and shit you dont want to deal with. Hopefully the novelty is worth it! Happy hunting!

 

[Red Leg]

It is for sure possible and I am having one built as we speak. To get it done, there will be a metric ton of annoyance and shit you dont want to deal with. Hopefully the novelty is worth it! Happy hunting!

Having one built? A SXS paradox?

 

[JvW]

There's a whole chapter on Paradox/Ball & Shot and other similar guns, including extensive reloading data and pressure information, in Graeme Wright's Shooting the British Double Rifle.

I know a lot of people who shoot their Paradox guns (to use the H&H term collectively in respect of all of them) and I've done a bit of hunting with an early hammerless H&H Paradox many years ago. This is a Rigby boxlock "Ball & Shot", made by Webley & Scott, and a hammer Army & Navy "Jungle Gun".

 

[ChrisG]

Well, I have never had the desire to drop a serious amount of money on a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none gun like a paradox. I do understand the appeal. Even more-so when we talk about large chunks of lead moving down range at modest velocity. So, my desire years ago, was to build a short, light, 12 gauge slug rifle for slinging a 775 grain solid wadcutter down range at around 1,200 fps. I sort of managed it, but it was also sort of a cob-job. The resulting thread can be seen here: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/12-bore-schrifle-project.47865/

While that thread had some stuff about the rifle in it. It had a huge amount of information the OP might find useful for duplicating paradox loads. (I assume you will be doing this yourself)

1. If you want to use brass shells, avoid magtech like the plague, they are springform junk unless you anneal them (Then they are totally useless for anything but shot loads), they are actually 11 Gauge interior dimension (so need their own special wadding) and generally split after 1 or 2 firings. There is also no way to crimp a 12 gauge bullet in them. For brass shells, go to https://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/. They make TRUE 12 gauge interior dimension, brass shells for this sort of work. They ain't cheap, but hey, its a paradox. Ultimately, it was all a waste of time for me. I went with 3" plastic hulls as they shot better and were easier to crimp. These are 775 grain Accurate molds, hard cast Wadcutters. They punch a nasty hole at 1150 fps-ish.

2. USE a gas seal wad!!!!! I started with just waxed over-powder card wads and fiber cushion wads. The second I added a gas seal in there, the velocity jumped up 150 fps. Those card wads leak gas like a sieve

3. For a bullet mold, there isn't a better or more reasonably priced manufacturer than Accurate molds (here is the link to his 12 gauge molds). He has a large array of mold options for the roughbore diameter you are looking for and then on checkout, you just specify what diameter you need it to drop bullets to fit your guns bore perfectly. He also will cut custom mold shapes as well. This is pretty close to the original paradox bullet. It's from his website, but it is only 680 grains:

4. Finally, if you are going to use smokeless, Blue dot was where I landed to get the velocities I needed.

Hope some of this rambling was helpful! Best of luck!

 

[Fugazi]

You would think that if they had even just shot it, they would have learned that it did not need to be bored out in order to function as a shotgun!?

From what I have been told, in the UK this was mainly down to a licensing issue.
To hold a shotgun certificate is fairly simple but to hold a rifle licence is much more complicated.
Due to the final few inches of the Paradox barrels being rifled - it came, and still does under the rifle licence (Section 1).
So as mad as it sounds, when there was a lot less interest and value in these guns, people used to hacksaw the final few inches off the end so they could hold them on the easier to obtain shotgun license.
Criminal imho.

 

[fourfive8]

Yep, good luck with "Project Paradox" The name itself may describe what may lay ahead. Two divergent physical laws dictating divergent outcomes. I'm not a cynic nor a pessimist- just a realist with some experience loading shotshells for best shot patterning and in getting big, slow, lead conical bullets to shoot accurately out of marginally rifled, shallow grooved bores. For historical comparison and sidebar interest, in the not-too-distant past, various shotgun choke attachments have been designed with a rifled bore. The idea was to convert an otherwise tightly choked shotgun into one that would fire more open patterns without having to alter or de-choke the original bore .... some were called the "Paradox" choke attachment. The physics/mechanics involved would impart angular rotation thus lateral momentum to the shot charge and open the pattern once the column left the muzzle. At the same time these contraptions were theoretically capable of imparting enough spin rotation to stabilize a short conical slug if that type ammo was shot out of the same barrel... What a task, almost "magical". One way to look at the definition of paradox would be to consider the paradox of traveling backwards in time

No matter how it is sliced, such a compromise, whether designed and built into a shotgun bore or added as some add-on contraption, will never yield best results for either use- shot firing shotgun or single projectile rifle. Simple laws of physics can't be altered. So I guess the name "Paradox" is somewhat fitting in either case. As it turns out the best dual purpose results may be obtained with a Mod or Full choked conventional smoothbore shotgun firing modern dedicated slugs that act like the old hollow base Minie' where stabilization is achieved primarily through aerodynamic "dart" stabilization. I've shot some pretty good groups at 50 yards with this type conventional shotgun slug out of conventional full choke, smoothbore shotguns. Shotguns that otherwise shoot really good consistent shot patterns with regular shot shells.

 

[ActionBob]

Yep, good luck with "Project Paradox" The name itself may describe what may lay ahead. Two divergent physical laws dictating divergent outcomes. I'm not a cynic nor a pessimist- just a realist with some experience loading shotshells for best shot patterning and in getting big, slow, lead conical bullets to shoot accurately out of marginally rifled, shallow grooved bores. For historical comparison and sidebar interest, in the not-too-distant past, various shotgun choke attachments have been designed with a rifled bore. The idea was to convert an otherwise tightly choked shotgun into one that would fire more open patterns without having to alter or de-choke the original bore .... some were called the "Paradox" choke attachment. The physics/mechanics involved would impart angular rotation thus lateral momentum to the shot charge and open the pattern once the column left the muzzle. At the same time these contraptions were theoretically capable of imparting enough spin rotation to stabilize a short conical slug if that type ammo was shot out of the same barrel... What a task, almost "magical". One way to look at the definition of paradox would be to consider the paradox of traveling backwards in time

No matter how it is sliced, such a compromise, whether designed and built into a shotgun bore or added as some add-on contraption, will never yield best results for either use- shot firing shotgun or single projectile rifle. Simple laws of physics can't be altered. So I guess the name "Paradox" is somewhat fitting in either case. As it turns out the best dual purpose results may be obtained with a Mod or Full choked conventional smoothbore shotgun firing modern dedicated slugs that act like the old hollow base Minie' where stabilization is achieved primarily through aerodynamic "dart" stabilization. I've shot some pretty good groups at 50 yards with this type conventional shotgun slug out of conventional full choke, smoothbore shotguns. Shotguns that otherwise shoot really good consistent shot patterns with regular shot shells.

Yea well, the Old English Paradox and Explora guns are just plain cool and obviously have more Class and Soul than all the physics and other tiring blather above. As @Red Leg stated earlier, the 140 year old technology has not yet been recreated in the US.

I for one am grateful I have a classic Holland and Holland Royal Paradox 12 bore. And really don't care that it is not the optimal gun for any particular task other than my enjoyment of it and it's beauty as well as history. I'm looking forward to taking it to Africa and hunting with it. Both with the conical solids and the bird shot

 

[93marlin]

Yea well, the Old English Paradox and Explora guns are just plain cool and obviously have more Class and Soul than all the physics and other tiring blather above. As @Red Leg stated earlier, the 140 year old technology has not yet been recreated in the US.

I for one am grateful I have a classic Holland and Holland Royal Paradox 12 bore. And really don't care that it is not the optimal gun for any particular task other than my enjoyment of it and it's beauty as well as history. I'm looking forward to taking it to Africa and hunting with it. Both with the conical solids and the bird shot

We own classic guns of all sorts for the history behind of them before they came to us.

 

[Red Leg]

Yep, good luck with "Project Paradox" The name itself may describe what may lay ahead. Two divergent physical laws dictating divergent outcomes. I'm not a cynic nor a pessimist- just a realist with some experience loading shotshells for best shot patterning and in getting big, slow, lead conical bullets to shoot accurately out of marginally rifled, shallow grooved bores. For historical comparison and sidebar interest, in the not-too-distant past, various shotgun choke attachments have been designed with a rifled bore. The idea was to convert an otherwise tightly choked shotgun into one that would fire more open patterns without having to alter or de-choke the original bore .... some were called the "Paradox" choke attachment. The physics/mechanics involved would impart angular rotation thus lateral momentum to the shot charge and open the pattern once the column left the muzzle. At the same time these contraptions were theoretically capable of imparting enough spin rotation to stabilize a short conical slug if that type ammo was shot out of the same barrel... What a task, almost "magical". One way to look at the definition of paradox would be to consider the paradox of traveling backwards in time

No matter how it is sliced, such a compromise, whether designed and built into a shotgun bore or added as some add-on contraption, will never yield best results for either use- shot firing shotgun or single projectile rifle. Simple laws of physics can't be altered. So I guess the name "Paradox" is somewhat fitting in either case. As it turns out the best dual purpose results may be obtained with a Mod or Full choked conventional smoothbore shotgun firing modern dedicated slugs that act like the old hollow base Minie' where stabilization is achieved primarily through aerodynamic "dart" stabilization. I've shot some pretty good groups at 50 yards with this type conventional shotgun slug out of conventional full choke, smoothbore shotguns. Shotguns that otherwise shoot really good consistent shot patterns with regular shot shells.

You have "some experience loading shotshells for best shot patterning" and have fired slugs from a modified choked gun and so you understand everything there is to know about a Paradox. In other words, you are a "realist" who has never actually even held one have you?

Fortunately those brilliant men without computers managed to do amazing things over a century ago and were unencumbered by preconceptions. My William Evans shoots as a "rifle" more accurately than I can with it's open sights. Ross Seyfried can put 4 spin-stabilized rounds LxR/LxR through it into two inches at 100 yards (he developed the loads for the Evans replicating the original). I can get the same four shots into 3 1/2. I wonder how many double rifles owned by members of this forum will do that at 100 yards - or how many slugs from a modified barrel would still even be on the paper?

It also shoots perfectly even light modified 1 1/8 ounce patterns of N0. 6 shot loaded over fiber wads. As I have noted here before, I have rolled two warthogs for bait and created a reasonable mound of sand grouse from the same waterhole on same afternoon in Namibia.

Feed them correctly, and the guns perform exactly as advertised. They are a really special thing to own and use.

 

[ChrisG]

...As it turns out the best dual purpose results may be obtained with a Mod or Full choked conventional smoothbore shotgun firing modern dedicated slugs that act like the old hollow base Minie' where stabilization is achieved primarily through aerodynamic "dart" stabilization. I've shot some pretty good groups at 50 yards with this type conventional shotgun slug out of conventional full choke, smoothbore shotguns. Shotguns that otherwise shoot really good consistent shot patterns with regular shot shells.

Lets talk physics... The "physics" of how a shotgun slug and a Miniè work are quite different. The slug is drag stabilized (or "dart stabilization") by virtue of its center of mass being forward of its geometric center. This is the absolute worst possible method to achieve accuracy in a conical bullet at these speeds, but is a sight better than throwing a round ball down a smooth barrel and hoping for the best (knuckleball effect). For all intents and purposes a foster type slug is a teacup on its side. The Miniè is in fact spin stabilized and the hollow base was to aid obturation to get it to engage the shallow rifling cut into old converted muskets while still being small enough to ram down a fouled bore. A Miniè fired from a slow twist round ball rifle or one with worn out rifling will tumble fairly quickly.

The issue really is that this "mass forward" approach may keep it nose on (ish) during supersonic flight, but it is the worst method for achieving accuracy. Think of how many match bullets have this configuration... If that worked, you'd see a lot more "teardrop" shaped match bullets. (They do work very well for subsonic flight). The engineers at H&H knew this despite their lack of slow motion cameras and chronographs. Some anecdotal evidence would say that a good group can be shot with hollow base slugs, but that will not be reproduceable in the long run. If drag stabilized projectiles were so accurate at supersonic speeds, then pellets from air guns would work best here, but they don't. Pellets and shotgun slugs shoot most accurately in the 850-900fps range. Any faster and shifting air densities across the nose affect its course. No... a spin stabilized slug from a paradox will always outperform a drag stabilized teacup. This is why I use bullets (called slugs in the air gun world) in my air guns, not pellets.

Then there's the fact that they are DRAG stabilized.... hollow base slugs carry energy downrange about as well as a Styrofoam cup full of sawdust.

Paradox guns compare to modern slug guns in the same way that opossums compare to kangaroos. They're both marsupials, but that's where the similarities end.

Also, advising people that they can shoot slugs through a full choke is begging for disaster. Yes you can squish a foster slug into a full choke and probably not blow the gun up, but it beats the heck out of the gun. Someone trying that with a brenneke may well end up with a trombone horn for the front of their barrel if not worse. Also, swaging them down at 1,500fps is going to melt some lead and lead to inconsistencies. That's why smoothbore slug barrels are universally improved cylinder. Some choke definitely is good for a slug, but too much destroys it.

 

[Sarg]

I just picked up my Army & Navy "Jungle Gun" so I will be doing a bit of load work soon.

I asked the shop owner for two boxes of Paradox cartridges to go with it, he just gave me a hard look lol !

 

[WAB]

I just picked up my Army & Navy "Jungle Gun" so I will be doing a bit of load work soon.

I asked the shop owner for two boxes of Paradox cartridges to go with it, he just gave me a hard look lol !

I think you made a great purchase. Enjoy!

 

[Red Leg]

I just picked up my Army & Navy "Jungle Gun" so I will be doing a bit of load work soon.

I asked the shop owner for two boxes of Paradox cartridges to go with it, he just gave me a hard look lol !

Can't wait to hear that you have the old girl up and running! I haven't had the courage to take mine after a buff, but I have no doubt where the bullet would go if I tucked the front sight into that crease just behind the lower shoulder.

 

[IvW]

Lets talk physics... The "physics" of how a shotgun slug and a Miniè work are quite different. The slug is drag stabilized (or "dart stabilization") by virtue of its center of mass being forward of its geometric center. This is the absolute worst possible method to achieve accuracy in a conical bullet at these speeds, but is a sight better than throwing a round ball down a smooth barrel and hoping for the best (knuckleball effect). For all intents and purposes a foster type slug is a teacup on its side. The Miniè is in fact spin stabilized and the hollow base was to aid obturation to get it to engage the shallow rifling cut into old converted muskets while still being small enough to ram down a fouled bore. A Miniè fired from a slow twist round ball rifle or one with worn out rifling will tumble fairly quickly.

The issue really is that this "mass forward" approach may keep it nose on (ish) during supersonic flight, but it is the worst method for achieving accuracy. Think of how many match bullets have this configuration... If that worked, you'd see a lot more "teardrop" shaped match bullets. (They do work very well for subsonic flight). The engineers at H&H knew this despite their lack of slow motion cameras and chronographs. Some anecdotal evidence would say that a good group can be shot with hollow base slugs, but that will not be reproduceable in the long run. If drag stabilized projectiles were so accurate at supersonic speeds, then pellets from air guns would work best here, but they don't. Pellets and shotgun slugs shoot most accurately in the 850-900fps range. Any faster and shifting air densities across the nose affect its course. No... a spin stabilized slug from a paradox will always outperform a drag stabilized teacup. This is why I use bullets (called slugs in the air gun world) in my air guns, not pellets.

Then there's the fact that they are DRAG stabilized.... hollow base slugs carry energy downrange about as well as a Styrofoam cup full of sawdust.

Paradox guns compare to modern slug guns in the same way that opossums compare to kangaroos. They're both marsupials, but that's where the similarities end.

Also, advising people that they can shoot slugs through a full choke is begging for disaster. Yes you can squish a foster slug into a full choke and probably not blow the gun up, but it beats the heck out of the gun. Someone trying that with a brenneke may well end up with a trombone horn for the front of their barrel if not worse. Also, swaging them down at 1,500fps is going to melt some lead and lead to inconsistencies. That's why smoothbore slug barrels are universally improved cylinder. Some choke definitely is good for a slug, but too much destroys it.

Original Brenneke slugs work fantastic out of a smoothbore irrespective of choke. They can be safely shot through a full choke......

 

[Red Leg]

Original Brenneke slugs work fantastic out of a smoothbore irrespective of choke. They can be safely shot through a full choke......

Absolutely true. Up until the late seventies when I was stationed in Germany, many German hunters still used drillings. If boar were seen, the shot shell would come out of the left full choke barrel and be replaced with a slug. The hunter then had his rifle caliber for a first shot and the rear trigger for a slug follow-up. The slug is slightly undersized and the wad remains attached effectively sealing the bore. They are surprisingly accurate and cause no damage to a full choke gun.