Another 45-70 for Dangerous Game Question

[Big5]

If I had the money for it, I would book a bowhunt for Cape Buffalo today.
And it would be totally fine by me if the PH stayed in the truck some hundreds of yards away.

Please tell me how often do a Buffalo charge a hunter if his first shot is a good one?
I really would like to know, because I don't think I have ever read or heard a DG PH say that there is much chance for a charge if your first shot is a good killing shot.

Norwegianwoods, the above comments clearly indicate your desire to approach a buff, or buffs, alone and to within effective stick and string shooting range. You then seem to suggest that you have the unquestionable ability to launch a "good" and effective killing shot which would therefore avoid the "chance for a charge". You don't seem to give any consideration whatsoever to the possibility that things may not go as planned. Sorry, but I call that silly and quite naive.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

Maybe I am naive
What I do know, is that I would not launch an arrow at a buff without feeling 100% sure about my shot.
I would not risk a 99% shot.

Of course you can never be 100% sure that all things go as planned. That goes for most things in life.
I don't think I would be less concerned about wounding a buff with a gun than a bow and by then risk the health and life of the PH and trackers when going after it.
I am much more concerned and worried about other peoples safety than my own.

I know for sure that my ability to to hit my point of aim at 20-25 yards with a bow is at least as good as I am with a rifle without sticks at the same distance.
I might be a bad shot overall

 

[Grumulkin]

Where are you Fritz Rabe? I need some questions answered:

1. Of the Cape Buffalo you've shot with a bow, how many were dead right there or only ran 20 or 25 yards before collapseing? I picked 20 or 25 yards since I thought that might be the distance of a perfect killing shot 99% of the time (the other 1% don't matter as an imperfect shot only happens one out of a hundred times). This is presuming you only take shots from 20 or 25 yards. It's perfectly understandable if you take your Cape buffalo by arrow at 75 or 100 yards, given your expertise in which case please modify the above numbers accordingly and make it that the animal can run 75 or 100 yards before it gets to you.

2. I apologizing for even asking, is there anyone backing you up with any type of weapon when you make your first perfect shot (I'm sure they're all perfect)? In the unlikely event the answer is yes, are they armed with a bow?

2. Norwegianwoods holds you in high esteem, something like the Chuck Norris of bow hunting, so this may be a silly question. In the unlikely event that your first shot wasn't a prompt killing shot, did you have any one to back you up when you went to finish off your Cape Buffalo? If so, and I apologize for even asking, were they armed with a bow, a 45-70, or something else?

 

[Norwegianwoods]

Funny last part Grumulkin.
I liked the Chuck Norris comparison, but I am sure Mr Norris don't need a bow to kill a buff

I can't say for sure, but I think that Fritz Rabe is one of the most(if not the most) experienced DG bow hunting PH there is and I very much respect his views and waste experience.

 

[Grumulkin]

Funny last part Grumulkin.
I liked the Chuck Norris comparison, but I am sure Mr Norris don't need a bow to kill a buff

I can't say for sure, but I think that Fritz Rabe is one of the most(if not the most) experienced DG bow hunting PH there is and I very much respect his views and waste experience.

Well, hopefully, he'll give us the benefit of his "waste experience."

 

[Norwegianwoods]

Well, hopefully, he'll give us the benefit of his "waste experience."

Instead of showing such an attitude, it might be an idea for you to check him up and see what he has said on this and other forums when it comes to bowhunting DG.
Sadly he has not been active on this forum for about a year.
Here is one thread he made about hunting buffs with a bow on this forum.
http://www.africahunting.com/bowhunting-africa/8876-ph-bow-hunter-buffalo.html

I am no fanboy, but I have very much respect for the knowledge of people that have made a living for many years as a PH for DG.

 

[sestoppelman]

Bear in mind that no one here doubts the ability of an arrow properly placed to kill a buffalo. Of course it will, been done many times.
Your statement of feeling more confident with a bow than a .45-70 rifle is what sparked this. Yes its true that buffalo like most animals will try to run rather than charge, but the hunter cannot count on this. Just because something is rare or even perhaps never happened before does not mean it never will. So one should be prepared for the worst case scenario. Any sane person would choose a rifle over a bow if faced with such a situation. Any rifle. In case of a charge, the good archer may get off one arrow, perhaps two if he is really good, but the rifleman will be able to get off more and bullets will have a much better chance of stopping a charging buffalo than any arrow.

 

[rooihond]

I have no experience in hunting cape buffalo but I know a few things about deadly encounters. Buffalo appear to be very robust and focused animals when threatened. Much more durable than a relatively soft, smooshy human with even the strongest mindset. As relatively fragile as a human may be, one can still operate for a few seconds even after a direct hit to the heart. Not always, but very much in the realm of possibility. I would think that a lion or buffalo could also remain a threat, close a lot of distance, and do some work in a few seconds even with proper shot placement.

We aren't using silver bullets/ arrows and we're not hunting werewolves. Even the best shot may take a moment to work.

This thread got a bit off course but it is certainly a learning experience. Take it easy on each other. I feel like I threw everybody into a fight club.

 

[rooihond]

Bear in mind that no one here doubts the ability of an arrow properly placed to kill a buffalo. Of course it will, been done many times.
Your statement of feeling more confident with a bow than a .45-70 rifle is what sparked this. Yes its true that buffalo like most animals will try to run rather than charge, but the hunter cannot count on this. Just because something is rare or even perhaps never happened before does not mean it never will. So one should be prepared for the worst case scenario. Any sane person would choose a rifle over a bow if faced with such a situation. Any rifle. In case of a charge, the good archer may get off one arrow, perhaps two if he is really good, but the rifleman will be able to get off more and bullets will have a much better chance of stopping a charging buffalo than any arrow.

Yup

 

[Big5]

Norwegianwoods - Again, no one doubts that dangerous game can be taken with a bow. Certainly that is not the point of my earlier criticism toward your comments. My criticism is based upon your claim that you want to hunt dangerous game with a bow and arrow while the "PH stayed in the truck some hundreds of yards away" because, as you say, there isn't "much chance for a charge if your first shot is a good killing shot". You seem to base that position in your confidence in Fritz Rabe who you obviously hold in high esteem.

There is an article written by PH Fritz Rabe ('Elephant Dream', December 2012) where he and another PH, identified only as Kirk, successfully guided a bow hunter client for elephant. In reading the article it is clear that both Rabe and Kirk were armed with rifles as they guided the bow hunting client. After the elephant was down and confirmed dead Rabe writes; "Finally Kirk and I lowered our rifles and cleared the chambers".

It would therefore seem that Fritz Rabe's unquestionable hunting credentials and experience tell him that things can sometimes unexpectedly go sideways fast. So rather than "staying on the truck some hundreds of yards away" both Rabe and PH Kirk were armed with rifles as they accompanied the bow hunting client. I can only imagine that Rabe would also likely carry a firearm or be accompanied by someone with a firearm on a client buffalo hunt or any other dangerous game hunt.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I don't deny that fact Big5.
If I was to be a PH on a DG bow or rifle hunt, I would also be armed with a firearm(not a 45-70 ).
I am sure any PH is ready to shoot when a client has shot at a DG. Doesn't matter if it the client uses a rifle or a bow.
Not all clients are equal. No matter if they hunt with a bow or a rifle.
Some are crap shots others are true marksmen. Some totally melts down when they are about to shoot, others keep their composure.
Some are so eager to get their trophy, so they shoot in almost any sort of situation. Others wait for the perfect situation.
Then you have everything in between.
This is very difficult or impossible for a PH to know and he needs to be ready in case poo happens.

But we have been doing a major thread hijack here now. This was supposed to be about 45-70 on DG
I am more than willing to discuss bow on buffs in the bowhunting section of the forum

As said earlier, I would not feel comfortable with hunting DG with a 45-70. Even with the new mono-metal bullets. This is because I feel it is a lackluster in the penetration department.
I have not shot much with a 45-70 myself and I have never hunted with one.
But I have seen the result when a 45-70 have been used a few times.
Great effect on Red deer and smaller, but I was surprised to see that a Swift A-frame from a 45-70 didn't give better penetration on a Moose than a Swift A-frame bullet from a 6.5x55.
Maybe the 3 Moose I have seen shot with a 45-70 and Swift A-frame was a fluke, and that it normally performs much better.
What I do know, is that my bow that I feel is a bit on the low side for buffs, penetrates far better than a Swift A-frame from a 6.5x55.

Maybe I am totally wrong about the 45-70 and that it really penetrates much better than I think.
Maybe the new brass mono-metal bullets from CEB makes it a good cartridge for buffs. Hopefully some are willing to test that bullet in 45-70 on 10-12 buffs and share the results.

 

[Mike70560]

Nothing like a 45-70 thread to make me log in and post.

The 45-70 has worked in the past and will work in the future. The mono-metals make it a better round. There are far better choices than the 45-70.

As I have said in the past, size matters.



45-70, 470 Nitro, 458 Lott, 458 Winchester.

And yes I have tested more than enough rounds in wet packs (like Garrett) to prove velocity increases penetration in the mono-metal solids. A Lott will shoot through 72" of compressed saturated newspaper and three 2x6's.

Bow versus rifle. I will take the 45-70 every time.

Norwegianwoods,

Book a hunt to Cameroon with Cam Greig. It is self guided, no PH, no backup, bring your bow and no rifle. It is unlikely you will be charged but make sure somebody videos the hunt. These hunts are advertised on another hunting forum you post on from time to time.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

Mike, I have looked at Cameroon for a long time(20 years+) for an unguided "DIY" hunt. My rotten French and lack of fundings made me prioritize other things.

I have the site of Cam Greig bookmarked.
A "selfguided" bowhunt in Cameroon is very high on my bucket list.

I was in fact saving up and planning to do it in 2016, but a divorce 2 years ago very easily scooped up my savings and more ending up in my ex-wifes bank account...
I have some other hunts planned, but hopefully I will have the money for a Cameroon hunt in a not so distant future

 

[rooihond]

I don't deny that fact Big5.
If I was to be a PH on a DG bow or rifle hunt, I would also be armed with a firearm(not a 45-70 ).
I am sure any PH is ready to shoot when a client has shot at a DG. Doesn't matter if it the client uses a rifle or a bow.
Not all clients are equal. No matter if they hunt with a bow or a rifle.
Some are crap shots others are true marksmen. Some totally melts down when they are about to shoot, others keep their composure.
Some are so eager to get their trophy, so they shoot in almost any sort of situation. Others wait for the perfect situation.
Then you have everything in between.
This is very difficult or impossible for a PH to know and he needs to be ready in case poo happens.

But we have been doing a major thread hijack here now. This was supposed to be about 45-70 on DG
I am more than willing to discuss bow on buffs in the bowhunting section of the forum

As said earlier, I would not feel comfortable with hunting DG with a 45-70. Even with the new mono-metal bullets. This is because I feel it is a lackluster in the penetration department.
I have not shot much with a 45-70 myself and I have never hunted with one.
But I have seen the result when a 45-70 have been used a few times.
Great effect on Red deer and smaller, but I was surprised to see that a Swift A-frame from a 45-70 didn't give better penetration on a Moose than a Swift A-frame bullet from a 6.5x55.
Maybe the 3 Moose I have seen shot with a 45-70 and Swift A-frame was a fluke, and that it normally performs much better.
What I do know, is that my bow that I feel is a bit on the low side for buffs, penetrates far better than a Swift A-frame from a 6.5x55.

Maybe I am totally wrong about the 45-70 and that it really penetrates much better than I think.
Maybe the new brass mono-metal bullets from CEB makes it a good cartridge for buffs. Hopefully some are willing to test that bullet in 45-70 on 10-12 buffs and share the results.

Don't worry about the hijack. Thanks for the input.

I would love to run that experiment but my list is already out of control! Maybe a few dozen hunts from now. First gotta get one with a 375 H&H and one with a bow!

 

[rooihond]

Nothing like a 45-70 thread to make me log in and post.

The 45-70 has worked in the past and will work in the future. The mono-metals make it a better round. There are far better choices than the 45-70.

As I have said in the past, size matters.



45-70, 470 Nitro, 458 Lott, 458 Winchester.

And yes I have tested more than enough rounds in wet packs (like Garrett) to prove velocity increases penetration in the mono-metal solids. A Lott will shoot through 72" of compressed saturated newspaper and three 2x6's.

Bow versus rifle. I will take the 45-70 every time.

Norwegianwoods,

Book a hunt to Cameroon with Cam Greig. It is self guided, no PH, no backup, bring your bow and no rifle. It is unlikely you will be charged but make sure somebody videos the hunt. These hunts are advertised on another hunting forum you post on from time to time.

Thanks for the info! How did the Garrett stuff perform on the wet packs compared to previous ammo offered? Is it worth being produced or is the improvement negligible?

 

[rooihond]

After spending more time on AH I realized that I should have placed this thread in the Firearms and Ammunition Forum. Maybe everybody was so absorbed in thinking this was a 45-70 as a caliber question or you guys were just being patient with me. Thanks.

I am waiting on some new solids and using Hornady LeveRevolution until then. Material resources can make you wait in my neck of the woods. I am not sure if it is an improvement from the old, but the Hornady stuff performed nicely and the rifle(1895 SBL) was fun to shoot.

I look forward to asking some questions about .375 or .458 calibers and ammo soon. In the appropriate forum, of course.

 

[enysse]

I thought it was a nice thread. One last thought, since I just got up. I think hunting dangerous game with a known and proven caliber takes a lot of the danger out of the equation. Hunt with a muzzleloader, bow...well to me it becomes a total different affair. I know a PH in Zambia that uses the 45-70 for hippo and such but he developed him own bullets. Sadly I lost that information in the last 2 years. But he loved his lever action gun, thought it was easy to carry around. He did not consider the gun a stopper though,which makes me question if it was appropriate to use.

 

[spike.t]

I thought it was a nice thread. One last thought, since I just got up. I think hunting dangerous game with a known and proven caliber takes a lot of the danger out of the equation. Hunt with a muzzleloader, bow...well to me it becomes a total different affair. I know a PH in Zambia that uses the 45-70 for hippo and such but he developed him own bullets. Sadly I lost that information in the last 2 years. But he loved his lever action gun, thought it was easy to carry around. He did not consider the gun a stopper though,which makes me question if it was appropriate to use.

who was the ph just out of interest? and rooihond how do those leverevolution work?

 

[enysse]

Pete Swanepoel

 

[peras]

In African dangerous game cartridges by Pierre van der Walt it is mentioned that the .457 wild west magnum which is a stretched version of the 45-70 is used by PH Danie van Graan from Malelane.