Politics

[sestoppelman]

I have no reason to believe anything that comes out of the mouths of the IDF spokespersons. They have a long track record of lying. Unfortunately, US government spokespersons also have a long record of lying in support of the Israelis. Maybe some of our younger members would like to look up the USS Liberty incident were the Israeli navy and airforce tried to sink a US Navy vessel. Both the Israelis and the US were quick to claim an accidental mistaken identity. The few US crew members who have spoken have claimed their signals monitoring showed the Israelis new exactly who they were.

Also it goes without saying that Hamas are even further from being a trustworthy source, the expression 'murderous lying bastards' comes to mind. So this leaves us with that which we can see for ourselves and a lot of unknowns.

Which brings me to a question that maybe some of our more experienced members might comment on. I have seen the coverage of the damage done by Hamas rockets on Israeli homes and buildings, normally a bit of courtyard damage or blowing out a couple of rooms. I have also seen the coverage of the damage to the Gaza hospital. To my eyes the photos of the hospital aren't enough for a definitive forensic appreciation, but it does seem to be an order of magnitude greater. Likewise the damage seems less than that created by the delay fused munitions used by the Israelis to bring down Gaza apartment blocks. Putting aside who said what, or who is the most reprehensible actor, anyone care to comment from the perspective of damage analysis verses capability of known weapon systems. Bearing in mind that the footage indicates a single explosion, not a barrage.

Do you give any credence to the intercepted phone conversation between Hamas members declaring it was likely not IDF's doing, but more likely their own or Islamic Jihad?

 

[sestoppelman]

MSN

Not good for Uganda travel and tourism....

 

[Red Leg]

I have no reason to believe anything that comes out of the mouths of the IDF spokespersons. They have a long track record of lying. Unfortunately, US government spokespersons also have a long record of lying in support of the Israelis. Maybe some of our younger members would like to look up the USS Liberty incident were the Israeli navy and airforce tried to sink a US Navy vessel. Both the Israelis and the US were quick to claim an accidental mistaken identity. The few US crew members who have spoken have claimed their signals monitoring showed the Israelis new exactly who they were.

Also it goes without saying that Hamas are even further from being a trustworthy source, the expression 'murderous lying bastards' comes to mind. So this leaves us with that which we can see for ourselves and a lot of unknowns.

Which brings me to a question that maybe some of our more experienced members might comment on. I have seen the coverage of the damage done by Hamas rockets on Israeli homes and buildings, normally a bit of courtyard damage or blowing out a couple of rooms. I have also seen the coverage of the damage to the Gaza hospital. To my eyes the photos of the hospital aren't enough for a definitive forensic appreciation, but it does seem to be an order of magnitude greater. Likewise the damage seems less than that created by the delay fused munitions used by the Israelis to bring down Gaza apartment blocks. Putting aside who said what, or who is the most reprehensible actor, anyone care to comment from the perspective of damage analysis verses capability of known weapon systems. Bearing in mind that the footage indicates a single explosion, not a barrage.

From a military perspective, the most telling indicator is the area struck by the explosive ordinance. If you ignore everything written in the article, the photo of where the explosion took place - the hospital parking lot - makes it absolutely clear that it wasn't a air delivered 500 or 1000lb bomb. The hospital would have been destroyed. It looks like the sort of damage one would expect from 50lbs of Semtex or C4. The hospital buildings structurally are undamaged, though I am sure a lot of glass was blown out of windows. That also means, unless people were stacked in this area ten deep, HAMAS is also lying about the casualty count.

Aerial photos reveal scene of Gaza hospital explosion — a charred parking lot

The misfired rocket hit the parking lot outside the hospital. Were it an airstrike, there would have been a crater there, Israel said

ottawacitizen.com

This is the best video of the errant rocket. Iron dome covers the target not launch area so nothing is engaging these rockets at this point. What I believe we are seeing is a rocket motor blowing up and then the warhead exploding within hospital compound when it hits the ground.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/17a7zk7

 

[Hogpatrol]

 

[sestoppelman]

From a military perspective, the most telling indicator is the area struck by the explosive (ordnance). If you ignore everything written in the article, the photo of where the explosion took place - the hospital parking lot - makes it absolutely clear that it wasn't a air delivered 500 or 1000lb bomb. The hospital would have been destroyed. It looks like the sort of damage one would expect from 50lbs of Semtex or C4. The hospital buildings structurally are undamaged, though I am sure a lot of glass was blown out of windows. That also means, unless people were stacked in this area ten deep, HAMAS is also lying about the casualty count.

Aerial photos reveal scene of Gaza hospital explosion — a charred parking lot

The misfired rocket hit the parking lot outside the hospital. Were it an airstrike, there would have been a crater there, Israel said

ottawacitizen.com

This is the best video of the errant rocket. Iron dome covers the target not launch area so nothing is engaging these rockets at this point. What I believe we are seeing is a rocket motor blowing up and then the warhead exploding within hospital compound when it hits the ground.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/17a7zk7

LOL, FIFY

 

[VertigoBE]

One side is going out of their way to target the enemy but still regrettably causes collateral damage. The other side is going out of their way to target concerts, people’s homes, women and children. One side hides behind an iron shield, the other behind human shields. One side has as a goal to wipe out another population, the other to wipe out the militarist branch.

For me pretty clear who holds the moral superiority in this case.

 

[Ray B]

I think the problem of cultural assimilation is one of perspective. Everyone has a past and a heritage of ancestors. Whether they are European, Asian, African or somewhere else- and everyone should be proud of their ancestors and where they came from. But everyone also has a future and they face the future as one of where they live- they are Americans, English, German, Kenyan or where ever.

The problem comes in when someone moves from elsewhere, then projects their heritage to the future- they decline a future that includes where they have moved and insist on maintaining the culture of where they left without regard for aspects that are not compatible.

 

[geoff rath]

I think you make a very good point - but the author would agree with you. The vast majority of Muslims are indeed fine citizens of whatever country in which reside. Even in Gaza, Israel faces 25,000 members of HAMAS and perhaps a quarter of a million active sympathizers. The remaining 2 million Muslim residents simply want to get on with their lives. But the 25,000 HAMAS do exist, and they exist as a religious based movement with the goal of destroying the state of Israel. The vast majority of those in Gaza allow the movement to flourish there. I think that fits exactly the pattern suggested by the author.

Something the author doesn't mention, that is equally important is culture. Culture and religion obviously interact, but both can play a major disruptive force when planted in an alien culture like the West.

There is a good bit of evidence that along with the hard working patriotic Muslims who become part of a Western population, there is another group - often represented by refugees - who simply do not assimilate. They tend to congregate in specific regions are parts of cities. Many go to work in the "West," but they remaining firmly living in the "East." I recommend a visit to Vancouver, or Minneapolis-St Paul, or yes, London. These cultural enclaves are growing, not shrinking through assimilation.

The problem with unassimilated groups of profoundly different cultures is that they can become recruiting grounds for movements that are inspired by far different things than the Magna Carta or the Bill of Rights. We all saw the success ISIS had in activating young Muslims not so very many years ago and the effects of those successes in places like Boston.

I think it is a genuine concern, and I think the West generally would be extremely wise to squeeze off the flow of these disruptive cultures until the millions that have already arrived have had several decades to actually become Germans, Dutch, French, or American.

I think you make a very good point - but the author would agree with you. The vast majority of Muslims are indeed fine citizens of whatever country in which reside. Even in Gaza, Israel faces 25,000 members of HAMAS and perhaps a quarter of a million active sympathizers. The remaining 2 million Muslim residents simply want to get on with their lives. But the 25,000 HAMAS do exist, and they exist as a religious based movement with the goal of destroying the state of Israel. The vast majority of those in Gaza allow the movement to flourish there. I think that fits exactly the pattern suggested by the author.

Something the author doesn't mention, that is equally important is culture. Culture and religion obviously interact, but both can play a major disruptive force when planted in an alien culture like the West.

There is a good bit of evidence that along with the hard working patriotic Muslims who become part of a Western population, there is another group - often represented by refugees - who simply do not assimilate. They tend to congregate in specific regions are parts of cities. Many go to work in the "West," but they remaining firmly living in the "East." I recommend a visit to Vancouver, or Minneapolis-St Paul, or yes, London. These cultural enclaves are growing, not shrinking through assimilation.

The problem with unassimilated groups of profoundly different cultures is that they can become recruiting grounds for movements that are inspired by far different things than the Magna Carta or the Bill of Rights. We all saw the success ISIS had in activating young Muslims not so very many years ago and the effects of those successes in places like Boston.

I think it is a genuine concern, and I think the West generally would be extremely wise to squeeze off the flow of these disruptive cultures until the millions that have already arrived have had several decades to actually become Germans, Dutch, French, or American.

... and in Sydney, and other cities in Australia ...These folk accept what comes from radical Islamic media as "gospel"; alleged evidence from the west is all lies. i was comparing video provided by the IDF of the hospital blast with earlier coverage; chalk and cheese? I'm a westerner, of course, so my view doesn't count in Islamic eyes...

 

[geoff rath]

I have no reason to believe anything that comes out of the mouths of the IDF spokespersons. They have a long track record of lying. Unfortunately, US government spokespersons also have a long record of lying in support of the Israelis. Maybe some of our younger members would like to look up the USS Liberty incident were the Israeli navy and airforce tried to sink a US Navy vessel. Both the Israelis and the US were quick to claim an accidental mistaken identity. The few US crew members who have spoken have claimed their signals monitoring showed the Israelis new exactly who they were.

Also it goes without saying that Hamas are even further from being a trustworthy source, the expression 'murderous lying bastards' comes to mind. So this leaves us with that which we can see for ourselves and a lot of unknowns.

Which brings me to a question that maybe some of our more experienced members might comment on. I have seen the coverage of the damage done by Hamas rockets on Israeli homes and buildings, normally a bit of courtyard damage or blowing out a couple of rooms. I have also seen the coverage of the damage to the Gaza hospital. To my eyes the photos of the hospital aren't enough for a definitive forensic appreciation, but it does seem to be an order of magnitude greater. Likewise the damage seems less than that created by the delay fused munitions used by the Israelis to bring down Gaza apartment blocks. Putting aside who said what, or who is the most reprehensible actor, anyone care to comment from the perspective of damage analysis verses capability of known weapon systems. Bearing in mind that the footage indicates a single explosion, not a barrage.

It'll be an ongoing case of "he said" Vs "no, HE said". We can only rely on our own personal knowledge/prejudices to form an opinion. Historically the Arab-Israeli conflict seems to be one of Arab action, followed by Israeli reaction especially in this scenario. an impertinent question, Hunter 4752001; Did you take part in ANY of the prayer meeting/protest held recently in various Australian cities?

 

[Newboomer]

This is what you posted.

in this talk about volunteer or draft military, I'll just say that about 10-20% of the chalk & chain ground-pounders I knew (Navy) had a similar story. They went into the military at the behest of a judge when they didn't like the other option offered involving a jumpsuit. Circa 1995-97. West coast. Some of them just wanted a job or to escape BFE where they were.

This is what I posted.

95-97 into the military rather than jail? That is absolute bullshit. Allow me to be even more bunt. That is a lie - at least with respect to the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps. Perhaps you had another service in mind?

I admit that you struck a nerve, but I think I was very accurate. 10 to 20% of the people you new in the navy did not join at the behest of a judge. That is a factual statement - whether you knew ten people or 100. Use whatever term you prefer. I frankly find the notion that 10 to 20% of the people you knew in the navy claimed that equally fanciful, but I do not know that as a fact.

This matters to me because it was a flaw in the enlistment system during the draft, and it was an issue that needed be fixed. It was - 20+ years before you joined the navy. Comments like yours to someone who served far longer than you and throughout the period you claim these incidents occurred are at best aggravating because they perpetuate the belief this practice was widespread and enduring. It was not.

And rather than post count, I think I'll rely on decades of active duty service as the basis of my conclusions.

I can second that. I served 1960-66 and 1975-2000 and not once heard of anyone being forced into the military or going to jail. And this was in corruptifornicate, the hotbed of all things screwy. As a senior instructor in an NCO academy I had contact with all ranks and branches from E-2 to O-4 in my classes. This military or jail sounds like follywierd movie crap.

 

[Red Leg]

I personally think Kennedy is a foil hat head, but I would suggest you Trumpsters need to figure out how to keep him from running as an independent.

Home of the Marist Poll | Polls, Analysis, Learning, and More

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maristpoll.marist.edu

 

[sestoppelman]

I personally think Kennedy is a foil hat head, but I would suggest you Trumpsters need to figure out how to keep him from running as an independent.

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The Marist Institute for Public Opinion (MIPO) is a survey research center. MIPO is home to the Marist Poll and conducts polls on politics, the economy, sports, technology and more at the local, state, and national level.

maristpoll.marist.edu

That ship has sailed.

 

[wesheltonj]

I personally think Kennedy is a foil hat head, but I would suggest you Trumpsters need to figure out how to keep him from running as an independent.

Home of the Marist Poll | Polls, Analysis, Learning, and More

The Marist Institute for Public Opinion (MIPO) is a survey research center. MIPO is home to the Marist Poll and conducts polls on politics, the economy, sports, technology and more at the local, state, and national level.

maristpoll.marist.edu

I think he said he was going to run as a libertarian, so he could be on the ballot in all 50 states. Libertarian usually pulls from R voters. Not to sure if a guy named JFK, Jr, is going to get the same pull from R’s as say Ron Paul.

 

[Doubleplay]

There is a difference between people wanting to assimilate into the way of life in the country they have moved to, and the people who move there and have no intention of it at all.....you say you know about uk and other countries, well I am surprised you don't know about the areas in towns that British women can't walk in without being abused or attacked for how they are dressed, or whatever other reason the Muslim men decide has pissed them off...simply being British and white is enough....forget your naive assimilation ideas it is not going to happen.....simple fact.....

"Simply being British and white is enough" to get assaulted by the Muslim men in London and yet the same London voted a Muslim mayor by %57 of the vote and UK has a colored person as the Prime Minister.
I guess you don't consider anyone but only White Christians can assimilate in UK and the rest are just subjects like the Colonist called them, including the mayor and the PM.

 

[sestoppelman]

I think he said he was going to run as a libertarian, so he could be on the ballot in all 50 states. Libertarian usually pulls from R voters. Not to sure if a guy named JFK, Jr, is going to get the same pull from R’s as say Ron Paul.

Independent.

RFK Jr. dumps Democrats, Libertarian Party blasts RFK Jr.'s stance on Israel

RFK Jr.'s declaration ends speculation that he might seek the Libertarian Party's presidential nomination.

reason.com

 

[Doubleplay]

I have no reason to believe anything that comes out of the mouths of the IDF spokespersons. They have a long track record of lying. Unfortunately, US government spokespersons also have a long record of lying in support of the Israelis. Maybe some of our younger members would like to look up the USS Liberty incident were the Israeli navy and airforce tried to sink a US Navy vessel. Both the Israelis and the US were quick to claim an accidental mistaken identity. The few US crew members who have spoken have claimed their signals monitoring showed the Israelis new exactly who they were.

Also it goes without saying that Hamas are even further from being a trustworthy source, the expression 'murderous lying bastards' comes to mind. So this leaves us with that which we can see for ourselves and a lot of unknowns.

Which brings me to a question that maybe some of our more experienced members might comment on. I have seen the coverage of the damage done by Hamas rockets on Israeli homes and buildings, normally a bit of courtyard damage or blowing out a couple of rooms. I have also seen the coverage of the damage to the Gaza hospital. To my eyes the photos of the hospital aren't enough for a definitive forensic appreciation, but it does seem to be an order of magnitude greater. Likewise the damage seems less than that created by the delay fused munitions used by the Israelis to bring down Gaza apartment blocks. Putting aside who said what, or who is the most reprehensible actor, anyone care to comment from the perspective of damage analysis verses capability of known weapon systems. Bearing in mind that the footage indicates a single explosion, not a barrage.

At this point it doesn't matter because whatever IDF says it won't be credible in the Arab world.
Even our staunch allies like Jordan reversed course after the hospital incident.

 

[Red Leg]

At this point it doesn't matter because whatever IDF says it won't be credible in the Arab world.
Even our staunch allies like Jordan reversed course after the hospital incident.

it is even more complicated. Arab political leadership is fully aware of what really happened.

 

[WAB]

My point exactly. It takes time and it won't occur at all if we succeed Balkanizing the country creating permanent self-sustaining enclaves.

I'll preface these thoughts by noting I am Arab speaker (or at least I was - it is a very perishable skill set) and have held a fellowship at the Walsh School, Contemporary Arab Studies, Georgetown. That doesn't mean I know squat but it does mean it is a subject I have thought about over the years. I would appreciate your perspective.

In my view, an aspect of Islam that is uniquely problematic is that unlike Christianity, it has never gone through a reformation. There have been schisms, Sunni and Shia are the best known in the West, but never a reform movement, particularly one tied to something so revolutionary as the Enlightenment.

Much Western culture is in conflict with traditional Islamic social mores. Whether it is women's rights and freedoms, our explicit entertainment, or simply sitting around a really good bottle of wine with friends. There is no Islamic movement yet that would make embracing these cultural norms appropriate for a "good" Muslim. One of the real release valves we have in the West is our broad array of religious options. From fundamentalist evangelicals, to the ceremony of Catholicism, the orderliness of Episcopalian prayer books, the pragmatism of Presbyterianism, or nothing formal at all there is a choice which supports Western culture coupled with being a "good" Christian.

The Jewish faith has had its own reform movement offering the choice of very traditional or very contemporary cultural environments for belief.

It is much more difficult for a Muslim. It is true that a Muslim is allowed to subordinate his beliefs while in Dar al-Harb (the world of conflict) until it or he is returned to Dar al-Islam. But that is a poor base upon which to build a permanent life in a foreign culture. All too often, I think we fail to understand the appeal of the siren song of Islamic revolutionary movements to young Muslims, growing up in a academic or technocrat home, who all too often are adrift from their faith.

I don't pretend to have an answer to this challenge. Of one thing that I think I am certain is that such cultural differences reinforced by a fundamentalist religion will make assimilation a far longer process than for many other groups.

By the way, I was born in Thibodaux, Louisiana and grew up in Lake Charles. I am very familiar with the French diaspora in Southwest Louisiana. Yet, I would argue their challenges are nothing compared to those faced by many Muslims in the West.

Last week, we were on the pier in Annapolis Royal from which the Acadians were deported. Tough folks treated very badly by the British. However, you got your revenge in the battle of New Orleans!

 

[Red Leg]

Last week, we were on the pier in Annapolis Royal from which the Acadians were deported. Tough folks treated very badly by the British. However, you got your revenge in the battle of New Orleans!

Changed the history of the continent as well. Had Britain taken New Orleans, there would have been no force to dispute the occupation for years - probably decades. The great expansion west would have been hamstrung before it began.

 

[Doubleplay]

it is even more complicated. Arab political leadership is fully aware of what really happened.

I'm also fully aware of what happened however none of the Arab leaders will come out to confirm.