Politics

After several decades of spending trillions of dollars embroiled in the Cold War with the former USSR and now Russia, how can it not be in our national interests to supply Ukraine with the armaments necessary to reduce the Russian military and the Russian threat without spending American blood? It baffles me that some people cannot see the reasoning. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to deplete the military power and political power of one of our longstanding enemies. The only thing more in our national interest would be to get the same chance to reduce Chinese power without spilling American blood.

It would seem that some people are against helping Ukraine just because Biden supports helping Ukraine. That’s not a legitimate reason to be against it.
 
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Weeks or months? How about years? Everyone in power pretty much says as JoeB did, "as long as it takes", with no real plan on what that is supposed to look like of course.
Well, what I meant being in a “current” conflict, is if China invaded Taiwan and we came to Taiwan’s defense. I think it would be a short(er), intense engagement and we better have sufficient stores of offensive Naval and air munitions available and not try and figure out how we’re going to replace them during the conflict? This current apparent shortage of artillery shells, stingers, etc doesn’t make me optimistic though. Whether we give or sell these or other military items to other countries for whatever reason, who’s “counting the horses as they’re leaving the barn”? I mean this shortage should have taken priority as soon as it began. We (public) only know about it because brain dead ran his mouth.
 
I know we haven’t given those items you’ve described to Ukraine. I was only questioning our ability to manufacture high tech munitions in a timely manner to replace those that would be lost in a major conflict? Apparently we’re short on sufficient supplies of Stingers, artillery shells and who knows what else right now. As you’ve pointed out, a China/Taiwan conflict would involve Naval and air assets. Hopefully, we’re not short on cruise and other missiles and can replace the many used in a timely manner during a major conflict. I guess my point is the munitions should be available in sufficient quantities BEFORE we’re engaged in a conflict and not trying to figure out how we’re going to replace them during the conflict?
I am sorry, I completely misunderstood your post. Yes, weapons development and manufacture, whether missiles, artillery rounds, tanks or planes is a relatively low rate production process.

For instance, we have a single assembly line capable of building a tank. Strategically that is not a good thing. But the demand for new tanks is obviously essentially nonexistent until it isn’t. No company could invest in that capability without a contract. Moreover, unlike the Sherman of WWII, the complexity of a modern tank means a company like Ford can’t suddenly switch from cars and trucks to armored vehicle production. It is a major reason we have been incrementally modernizing the same design since the Reagan administration.

Munitions, particularly missile munitions, represent a similar challenge. The Air Force and Navy can only afford so many in a given budget cycle. That means a fairly low rate of production which makes them even more expensive. It also means the product line, supply chain, and trained workers capable of building such a weapon is relatively small.

Secondly, neither service wants the production line to go cold. Let’s say the two services decided to purchase ten thousand Tomahawk cruise missiles over a five year period that would fulfill their likely contingency needs for a decade. That would be great for that five- year period for the manufacturer and the services. But then that production line would close and the human capital investment would be lost. It would be extremely difficult perhaps impossible to restart a decade later. This is also why military assistance programs (selling or giving stuff away) are so important as a way of maintaining production capacity.

Third, the technology changes constantly and often dramatically. Though the form factor is unchanged, the Tomahawk missiles that penetrated to Baghdad in Desert Shield or very different than those being used now. Smaller production lots allow the gradual incorporation of those changes and prevents sudden obsolescence of a whole stockpile.

Finally, missiles and rockets in particular have a shelf life. An air breather like a cruise missile requires maintenance and periodic replacement of rocket booster motors. Solid fuel missiles and rockets eventually become unstable for use.

All this means that without knowing the exact start date of the next major war it is impossible to have the maximum necessary requirements in place to fight it. So the services plan against the minimum requirement for its various missions, and pray for the funding is there for that.

So yes, in an all out conventional exchange with China, we would fight it with what we have on the board and currently in stockpile. Replacement of platforms and expended munitions with new production would be very slow. China, of course, would face the same challenges.
 
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Doesn't/didn't the warning about the military-industrial complex have something to do with the most basic economic theorem of supply and demand. Create a demand and supply will follow. With the operative word being create. Wherein an incestuous relationship evolves between high levels of military and military contractors with the economic engine politically driven by fear.

Eisenhower used the phrase in a speech and the concept and meaning seem clear. I guess with some word smithing gymnastics the concept can be be labeled, after the fact, with an out-of-context caveat. But if he really meant something different, why did he use those words?
 
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I am not sure what stock pile has been depleted. Unfortunately, I still hear and feel the Army/CIA blowing up “old” munitions. I am not sure what the Army/CIA calls old, but I have ammo dating back to the 30’s that I’ve still used. @Red Leg any insight what the army call old?

I know in 2013-2014 I was shooting Willy Pete rounds from 1967 in the USMC
 
Doesn't/didn't the warning about the military-industrial complex have something to do with the most basic economic theorem of supply and demand. Create a demand and supply will follow. With the operative word being create. Wherein an incestuous relationship evolves between high levels of military and military contractors with the economic engine politically driven by fear.

Eisenhower used the phrase in a speech and the concept and meaning seem clear. I guess with some word smithing gymnastics the concept can be be labeled, after the fact, with an out-of-context caveat. But if he really meant something different, why did he use those words?
It is always wise to look back at this speech from President Eisenhower. In the full speech he states why the U. S. must have a military/industrial complex for the first time in its history. Eisenhower understood what we had done previously did not work when it came to the defense of the U. S. However, he also saw how the military-industrial complex could lead us down the dark side as well.

Therefor, the question is what is enough? We have some on this forum that point out we are running out of ammunition. Then we have others pointing out how we plan for war by estimating the minimum equipment needed to be produced over time. The proper use of our defense industry is a balancing act and it is right that we are always questioning its actions.

Below is a link to the full speech by President Eisenhower

 
A part of Eik speech (Interesting nobody mentioned that):

Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose difference, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war-as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years-I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight.
 
A part of Eik speech (Interesting nobody mentioned that):

Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose difference, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war-as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years-I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight.
As long as we are talking about the human species, this would seem to be a pipedream.
 

Very honest appraisal from someone who has been at the front and done some real digging. I suspect many of us looked at the Russian collapse in Kharkov as a prelude to what to suspect this spring and summer. There the Russians were attempting a mobile defense which became a catastrophe - an effort every bit as complicated as a multi-brigade combined arms assault. A defense conducted from prepared defensive lines is far simpler and they are making it very hard for Ukraine to achieve anything but incremental progress well short of a breakthrough.

Without meaningful air support, it will be difficult for Ukraine to mass and advance their armor however expert they may or may not be in putting together a combined arms assault.

This is an important period for them. Achieve a breakthrough before the fall rains and cut the land bridge to Crimea and they likely can force a favorable negotiated settlement. If this offensive stalls, then the pressure from the West to negotiate a settlement which Russia can trumpet as favorable likely will be overwhelming over the winter.
 
Doesn't/didn't the warning about the military-industrial complex have something to do with the most basic economic theorem of supply and demand. Create a demand and supply will follow. With the operative word being create. Wherein an incestuous relationship evolves between high levels of military and military contractors with the economic engine politically driven by fear.

Eisenhower used the phrase in a speech and the concept and meaning seem clear. I guess with some word smithing gymnastics the concept can be be labeled, after the fact, with an out-of-context caveat. But if he really meant something different, why did he use those words?
JFet provided a link, but I'll say it again: Read the damn speech! If the link above doesn't work, search back in this thread for posts I've made quoting the speech.

It's not "word-smithing gymnastics", and the concept and meaning are made clear when you read the sentences before and after. It is after-the-fact, out-of-context caveat that changes the meaning to simply mean "beware of people who build stuff, they'll want to use it". You can't just read three words and "make the meaning clear".

What he was referring to was allowing a complex of military and industrial people assure citizens (and by extension, political leaders) that they can win a war because they had the know-how and technology. Don't allow them to convince you they can guarantee a win, just because they have the right toys. His point was that the citizen, not the "experts" should make the decisions to use the force, and not just blindly accept assurances because they are "experts".

Several sentences later, he makes a similar point with experts making other decisions, instead of leaving it to the "American Way", i.e. the citizen is involved in the decision making process. Compare what he said there to things like the EPA, and then we can converse more on the Military-Industrial Complex.
 
@Red Leg I didnt expect you would like my qoute!
But obviously I was wrong. Well done, Sir! (y)
 
@Red Leg I didnt expect you would like my qoute!
But obviously I was wrong. Well done, Sir! (y)
Oh I liked it fine. However, with his last sentence in that quote, it is clear Eisenhower fully appreciated what an unlikely sentiment it represented.

"Igitur quī dēsīderat pācem, præparet bellum"
Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus
 
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On expiry dates, and shelf life.
I am never too certain of it.
Typical examples are medicines.
For example, ships hospital has every medicine, for everything. On the other hand, seamen are generally healthy people, under annual medical fitness certificate.

So, medicines on board are not used in great quantity, or used rarely.
When they expire, they get replenished to full inventory again on annual basis to get medical chest certificate. Replenishing entire hospital is expenisve exercise
It is unthinkable in modern day that somebody is given expired aspirine! God forbid! (he might die, or he could sue?)

Then I remember a story of "last ivory hunter" (Wally Johnson) book written by capstick.
He injected him self with expired antivenom serum after being bitten by gaboon viper and survived, One of few ever bitten by that snake that survived..

Then I remember war in Croatia
We were getting all kinds of aid, including European medical aid and medicines, and including expired medicines from old stocks. in large quantities....
Nobody complained.
People were treated, and survived.
I asked my mother about that (PHD Neurologists, chief of staff), she said no issue, All works.

Oldest ammo I've been firing was milsurp, vintage 1953, Works.

Then we come to modern ammo and explosive artillery ammo, shelf life and low stocks
I have doubts on shelf life. Expiry dates are convenient and profitable for industry. it keeps production alive, even without consuming.
Expired things must be replenished.
 
The invasion was a shock to many in NATO who were convinced that nuclear deterrence made a conventional conflict with Russia unlikely if not impossible. And the result is a number of countries who are woefully unprepared for a conventional war. On the plus side this harsh wake up call has motivated a number of those countries to allocate more dollars to defense.

Obviously some of our stocks have been drawn down by this conflict but we've also contributed stuff that we had sitting around, M113 APCs for example. We were using them for artificial reefs, the Ukrainians have put them to good use in a number of roles. I'm sure there are many other examples as well. What is frustrating is the foot dragging by the Biden administration to providing certain weapons quickly and in numbers. I seriously suspect that J Biden would have rather Russia took Ukraine in 3 days, he didn't count on the Ukrainians saying no.

I understand the concern many have over how much money is being spent in Ukraine. But that amount pales in comparison to the amount that would be spent if Russia attacked a NATO member invoking Article 5 and plunging us directly into the conflict. Putin, his government and his media do not consider Ukraine or the Baltic Nations to be "real countries". It's not difficult to believe that success for Russia in Ukraine would lead to problems in other places.
 
JFet provided a link, but I'll say it again: Read the damn speech! If the link above doesn't work, search back in this thread for posts I've made quoting the speech.

It's not "word-smithing gymnastics", and the concept and meaning are made clear when you read the sentences before and after. It is after-the-fact, out-of-context caveat that changes the meaning to simply mean "beware of people who build stuff, they'll want to use it". You can't just read three words and "make the meaning clear".

What he was referring to was allowing a complex of military and industrial people assure citizens (and by extension, political leaders) that they can win a war because they had the know-how and technology. Don't allow them to convince you they can guarantee a win, just because they have the right toys. His point was that the citizen, not the "experts" should make the decisions to use the force, and not just blindly accept assurances because they are "experts".

Several sentences later, he makes a similar point with experts making other decisions, instead of leaving it to the "American Way", i.e. the citizen is involved in the decision making process. Compare what he said there to things like the EPA, and then we can converse more on the Military-Industrial Complex.
When you do read the entire speech you quickly realize what an amazing man he was. You also find this tidbit.

“Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.”

The man had vision.
 
Now President Eisenhower was not perfect. He made a major error when conducting a tour of Gettysburg battlefield with General Montgomery. Eisenhower and Montgomery were both asked about what they would have done with General Robert E. Lee and his mistakes during the Gettysburg Campaign. Both former commanding generals agreed that they would have fired General Lee. It did not take long for the South to rise again once their answer made it into the newspapers in the South.

 
The cocaine scandal has all but disappeared, which leaves me to believe the Secret Service has been compromised.

Commie Joe is pushing to cancel all student loans, despite the SCOTUS ruling.

Trump is now a target of a special counsel for trying to overturn the election results.

Spineless McCarthy continues to provide nothing but lip service.

Just another day in the Banana republic swamp.
 
On expiry dates, and shelf life.
I am never too certain of it.
Typical examples are medicines.
For example, ships hospital has every medicine, for everything. On the other hand, seamen are generally healthy people, under annual medical fitness certificate.

So, medicines on board are not used in great quantity, or used rarely.
When they expire, they get replenished to full inventory again on annual basis to get medical chest certificate. Replenishing entire hospital is expenisve exercise
It is unthinkable in modern day that somebody is given expired aspirine! God forbid! (he might die, or he could sue?)

Then I remember a story of "last ivory hunter" (Wally Johnson) book written by capstick.
He injected him self with expired antivenom serum after being bitten by gaboon viper and survived, One of few ever bitten by that snake that survived..

Then I remember war in Croatia
We were getting all kinds of aid, including European medical aid and medicines, and including expired medicines from old stocks. in large quantities....
Nobody complained.
People were treated, and survived.
I asked my mother about that (PHD Neurologists, chief of staff), she said no issue, All works.

Oldest ammo I've been firing was milsurp, vintage 1953, Works.

Then we come to modern ammo and explosive artillery ammo, shelf life and low stocks
I have doubts on shelf life. Expiry dates are convenient and profitable for industry. it keeps production alive, even without consuming.
Expired things must be replenished.
I too have and shot .303 British ammo from the 1950s when I still had my Enfield. I've shot old corrosive Russian ammo in my Mosin Nagants and SKS. It ALL works. Give the Ukranians the expired stuff as it's better than standing there with your d*** in your hands when being shot at. Just my 2 centavos.
 

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