Why not a Dangerous Game lever?

[mgstucson]

I had a gunmaker here in Denmark to make me a .45-100 leveraction out of a 1895 Winchester Russian rifle. It took the 2,6inch case. The rim had to be lathed down. It shot 400grain Speer bullet at 720 m/sec. I had 3 + 1 in the magazine. The gunmaker did have his challenges to make it work he felt he became married to the project....:LOL.

@rigbymauser This is GREAT. This is precisely the conversion I have been wanting to do. 458 WM performance in a leveraction actually rated for the pressure. If you would be so kind, I have a few things I would love to know from the only person on the planet that I know has done what you have done.

1. Does it feed reliably? What mods were needed to make it feed?

2. Why did you modify the rims rather than inlet the bolt face?

3. How many will it hold in the mag?

4. What is the max cartridge length?

5. Have you shot 500gr bullets in it? What velocity? What powder do you use?

6. Could you post a pic?

Thanks for any info you could provide, and congratulations on being the first to do a great conversion.

 

[rigbymauser]

@rigbymauser This is GREAT. This is precisely the conversion I have been wanting to do. 458 WM performance in a leveraction actually rated for the pressure. If you would be so kind, I have a few things I would love to know from the only person on the planet that I know has done what you have done.

1. Does it feed reliably? What mods were needed to make it feed?

2. Why did you modify the rims rather than inlet the bolt face?

3. How many will it hold in the mag?

4. What is the max cartridge length?

5. Have you shot 500gr bullets in it? What velocity? What powder do you use?

6. Could you post a pic?

Thanks for any info you could provide, and congratulations on being the first to do a great conversion.

I only used 400grain Speer bullets as they were cheap back then(2004). The gunmaker really had his problems to make it feed. It took a lot of benchwork to finetuning. I used Norma 201 gunpowder. I remember the load was 65-70 grain and there was room for more but recoil was beginning to be an issue. I had easy extraction. The barrel was1:16 Krieger oktagon barrel with filecut top. I had a thread on **NOT**PERMITTED**.com many years ago about the rifle with pics. I may have some on an old computer somewhere.
It was to much easier to make the rifle work trimming the rims down. The limitation was the magazinebox and could not be altered. The rifle was restocked. 3 rounds in the mag + 1 in chamber. Cartridgelength I don`t remember but the Speerbullet was crimped in the top crimpgroove.
I remember the gunmakers biggest issue was the cartridge retainer. He had to do a lot of fitting and fiddling. If the cartridge was too low the bolt would grap...it the cartridges were laying too high it wouldn`t enter straight into chamber. Like I wrote the gunmaker became married with the rifle.
I never hunted any game with it. For me at was a leveraction project to make the ultimate leveraction rifle. I sold it to someone who wanted it for blackpowder shooting.

 

[mgstucson]

I only used 400grain Speer bullets as they were cheap back then(2004). The gunmaker really had his problems to make it feed. It took a lot of benchwork to finetuning. I used Norma 201 gunpowder. I remember the load was 65-70 grain and there was room for more but recoil was beginning to be an issue. I had easy extraction. The barrel was1:16 Krieger oktagon barrel with filecut top. I had a thread on **NOT**PERMITTED**.com many years ago about the rifle with pics. I may have some on an old computer somewhere.
It was to much easier to make the rifle work trimming the rims down. The limitation was the magazinebox and could not be altered. The rifle was restocked. 3 rounds in the mag + 1 in chamber. Cartridgelength I don`t remember but the Speerbullet was crimped in the top crimpgroove.
I remember the gunmakers biggest issue was the cartridge retainer. He had to do a lot of fitting and fiddling. If the cartridge was too low the bolt would grap...it the cartridges were laying too high it wouldn`t enter straight into chamber. Like I wrote the gunmaker became married with the rifle.
I never hunted any game with it. For me at was a leveraction project to make the ultimate leveraction rifle. I sold it to someone who wanted it for blackpowder shooting.

Very interesting. I have been looking at bolt dimensions for the 30-40 Krag and the bolt dimensions for the 458 WM, and they are very close as far as rim diameter and rim thickness. Case length on the 458 WM is also .1 " shorter, which is a lot when you are already at the outer limit of the mag box. 458 WM brass and ammo would also be much cheaper and more available. I am working on building a double rifle with the 45-100 round, and believe I will continue to pursue that project with the rimmed cartridge. As far as the 1895 lever action project, I am leaning more toward the 458 WM with it's rimless case. If you made the 45-100 work in the action, I am sure the 458 WM can work. Very encouraging. The double is the fastest second shot available, but only carries 2 rounds. The lever action is VERY CLOSE to the double for speed on repeat shots, and carries twice as many rounds. Lever actions are twice as fast to shoot as a bolt action, and carry twice as many rounds as a double when defending against a charge. In certain situations that could be the difference between life and death. That is why "I" want a lever action for Africa. The Win 1895 and Browning BLR are factory built to handle SAAMI pressure rating of the 458 WM, and 99% of other rounds used in Africa, so the whole "lever action is not as strong as the bolt action" argument does not apply to these 2 lever action rifles. Once again the mechanical genius of John Moses Browning shines through. His design from 1895 is still at the top of the class. I live in the desert southwest of the USA. It gets to 120 deg F in the summer and is as dusty as any environment in Africa. Lever actions have been functioning here for hunting and self-defense for over 100 years with a stellar record. So the whole "lever actions are too delicate for harsh environments" argument doesn't hold water either. Lever actions really are "The gun that won The West". Tucson is 2500 feet elevation, and 13 miles as the crow flies is Mt. Lemmon which is right at 10,000 feet elevation. You can hike it in a long day. So pioneers here needed rifles that could function in dusty 120 deg heat in the summer, and still kill elk and grizzly bears on the mountain in sub-zero deg winters. Lever actions have been acquitting themselves quite well in this harsh environment for many generations, and will for generations to come.

Thank you for taking time to share your knowledge and experience.

 

[1972RedNeck]

I push 405 Gr hardcasts out of my 45-90 1886 Japchester at 2400 FPS.

All stock. 45-70 brass. 2.75" OAL (can fit 7 in the tube instead of 6 at that length). IMR3031 powder.

 

[mgstucson]

I push 405 Gr hardcasts out of my 45-90 1886 Japchester at 2400 FPS.

All stock. 45-70 brass. 2.75" OAL (can fit 7 in the tube instead of 6 at that length). IMR3031 powder.

I hope you remain in good health.

 

[rigbymauser]

I push 405 Gr hardcasts out of my 45-90 1886 Japchester at 2400 FPS.

All stock. 45-70 brass. 2.75" OAL (can fit 7 in the tube instead of 6 at that length). IMR3031 powder.

Do you shoot it with the cresent buttplate on a summerday with just a T-shirt on?..LOL…”I can already feel the pains”..

 

[rigbymauser]

Very interesting. I have been looking at bolt dimensions for the 30-40 Krag and the bolt dimensions for the 458 WM, and they are very close as far as rim diameter and rim thickness. Case length on the 458 WM is also .1 " shorter, which is a lot when you are already at the outer limit of the mag box. 458 WM brass and ammo would also be much cheaper and more available. I am working on building a double rifle with the 45-100 round, and believe I will continue to pursue that project with the rimmed cartridge. As far as the 1895 lever action project, I am leaning more toward the 458 WM with it's rimless case. If you made the 45-100 work in the action, I am sure the 458 WM can work. Very encouraging. The double is the fastest second shot available, but only carries 2 rounds. The lever action is VERY CLOSE to the double for speed on repeat shots, and carries twice as many rounds. Lever actions are twice as fast to shoot as a bolt action, and carry twice as many rounds as a double when defending against a charge. In certain situations that could be the difference between life and death. That is why "I" want a lever action for Africa. The Win 1895 and Browning BLR are factory built to handle SAAMI pressure rating of the 458 WM, and 99% of other rounds used in Africa, so the whole "lever action is not as strong as the bolt action" argument does not apply to these 2 lever action rifles. Once again the mechanical genius of John Moses Browning shines through. His design from 1895 is still at the top of the class. I live in the desert southwest of the USA. It gets to 120 deg F in the summer and is as dusty as any environment in Africa. Lever actions have been functioning here for hunting and self-defense for over 100 years with a stellar record. So the whole "lever actions are too delicate for harsh environments" argument doesn't hold water either. Lever actions really are "The gun that won The West". Tucson is 2500 feet elevation, and 13 miles as the crow flies is Mt. Lemmon which is right at 10,000 feet elevation. You can hike it in a long day. So pioneers here needed rifles that could function in dusty 120 deg heat in the summer, and still kill elk and grizzly bears on the mountain in sub-zero deg winters. Lever actions have been acquitting themselves quite well in this harsh environment for many generations, and will for generations to come.

Thank you for taking time to share your knowledge and experience.

The “cowboygun” has somewhat been ridiculized as a serious hunting firearm. But for people who didn’t knew any better it was so. Bringing a SRC in a pistolcaliber for a huntingtrip which lacked power and accuracy did seem rather stupid. They may not know anything besides watching John Wayne. However when talking about leveractions for those who did know something(like reading books)we all knew there is many leveractions that was made to bring down biggame with no problems. Here in later years many has brought their Marlin 1895 to Africa proved it was adequet for the big five. Bullet selection is crucial. To even further update there is a guy from Alabama who has a .70-150 Leveraction doing some remakable numbers that brings the leveraction up to 12 or 10 bore doublerifle class. But some of these powerfull leveraction is not saddleguns for cowboy work. They are biggame huntingrifles.

 

[1972RedNeck]

Do you shoot it with the cresent buttplate on a summerday with just a T-shirt on?..LOL…”I can already feel the pains”..

Nah, shotgun style with a limb saver slip on. Not bad as long as I'm standing. Never shot it sitting or prone nor do I ever plan to.

 

[B0MBOY]

I push 405 Gr hardcasts out of my 45-90 1886 Japchester at 2400 FPS.

All stock. 45-70 brass. 2.75" OAL (can fit 7 in the tube instead of 6 at that length). IMR3031 powder.

And the action holds up to all that extra pressure?

 

[HankBuck]

Do you shoot it with the cresent buttplate on a summerday with just a T-shirt on?..LOL…”I can already feel the pains”..

@rigbymauser - a bullet weighing 405 grains moving at 2400 fps must produce some “very Manly” recoil —- I don’t think I would care for that in a Lever action or any other type of rifle !

 

[jreidthompson]

Bighorn armory model 90 500 s&w 400gr specs, 18 inch barrel. Not sure whether handloading or longer barrel would improve the numbers. 2275 fps 4592 me.

https://www.bighornarmory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/500-BHA-comparison-data-04-29-19-with-ballistics-data.pdf

 

[Certus]

Bighorn armory model 90 500 s&w 400gr specs, 18 inch barrel. Not sure whether handloading or longer barrel would improve the numbers. 2275 fps 4592 me.

https://www.bighornarmory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/500-BHA-comparison-data-04-29-19-with-ballistics-data.pdf

Ultimate bear rifle, smaller than an 86 (and I think smaller than a marlin 95?) but more oomph and bigger diameter. Gosh I want one.

 

[analog_peninsula]

To the original question, my objection to a DG lever is the same that I have to calling an R8 a true DG rifle: the lack of camming power for both feeding and extraction. Don’t get me wrong, I own a couple R8s and a Winchester 71, and generally think the world of both designs , but anyone who’s heard the Blaser “click” or jammed a slightly malformed round in a lever gun should understand that both designs are relatively unforgiving of ammunition imperfections. Anyway, just a thought.

 

[rigbymauser]

To the original question, my objection to a DG lever is the same that I have to calling an R8 a true DG rifle: the lack of camming power for both feeding and extraction. Don’t get me wrong, I own a couple R8s and a Winchester 71, and generally think the world of both designs , but anyone who’s heard the Blaser “click” or jammed a slightly malformed round in a lever gun should understand that both designs are relatively unforgiving of ammunition imperfections. Anyway, just a thought.

I confess I was somewhat a “ Blaser hater” 20 years back. Only M98s and backaction doublerifles worked. My safe only contain this with the exception of few others. Today I wouldn’t mind have a R8 of a smaller bore. I have shot them and they are amazing. I think the baseprice overhere for a Blaser R8 is about $6000 and from here one must still add saddlemount mounted with the lastest Swarowski optics ofcouse. I can see myself spending $30000 on old engelsk steel, but some $10-12000 on a R8 is something must chew on for awhile( I may have to find a sponser).

 

[mgstucson]

To the original question, my objection to a DG lever is the same that I have to calling an R8 a true DG rifle: the lack of camming power for both feeding and extraction. Don’t get me wrong, I own a couple R8s and a Winchester 71, and generally think the world of both designs , but anyone who’s heard the Blaser “click” or jammed a slightly malformed round in a lever gun should understand that both designs are relatively unforgiving of ammunition imperfections. Anyway, just a thought.

I hear you. Personally, I am cycling every round in my mag before I load for the day on a DG hunt. Even so, most bolt actions do provide an added measure of strength compared to most other rifle types, even doubles, but people use those often enough for DG without any wide scale complaints. Even a bolt action cannot overcome some ammo issues, therefore no round goes in MY GUN that has not flawlessly cycled through MY GUN the day of my hunt. That precaution is not 100 percent, but it is pretty close.

I don't know much about Blasers, but I know there is quite the range when it comes to strength of action on lever actions. Under the above safety precautions, WITH AMMO I LOADED MYSELF WITH STRONG CASES AND METICULOUS ATTENTION TO DETAIL, I would trust a magazine fed 1895 Browning and most especially a Browning BLR. The BLR has a rack and pinion on the bolt that rivals the mechanical advantage on bolt actions for closing power (think mechanical advantage on arbor press). The BLR is the strongest lever action made and in chambered in belted magnum calibers like 300 WM, and the 7mm RM. Of course I would not use either of those calibers on DG, but the action is certainly strong enough for a 375 Ruger, 416 Ruger, or 458 WM.

The real question in my mind is this:
At the recoil level of a reliable DG caliber, will the 2 for 1 speed advantage of a lever action over a bolt action hold up. I know a 1895 Browning and a Browning BLR can and will shoot a 360gr .411 bullet at 2350fps, or a 400gr .411 bullet at 2200 without shooting over pressure in firearm. I know in that round, the 400 Whelen, the 2 for 1 speed advantage holds up. The 360gr round is about 4300fpe and the 400gr round is about 4000fpe. Certainly on par or better than the 375 H&H and 450/400 NE with much less recoil. I am not sure the speed advantage holds up in a 458 WM in a BLR. Without the speed advantage, might as well use a bolt action.

 

[mgstucson]

Bighorn armory model 90 500 s&w 400gr specs, 18 inch barrel. Not sure whether handloading or longer barrel would improve the numbers. 2275 fps 4592 me.

https://www.bighornarmory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/500-BHA-comparison-data-04-29-19-with-ballistics-data.pdf

I have a 500 S&W pistol, and I am a fan of the caliber in general. All the most recommended, best performing bullets for thick skinned DG (.375 300gr, .416 400gr, .458 500gr) have 2 things in common, SD of .3 or better, and must have energy over 4000fpe, the higher the SD and the ME the better. This, along with great bullet construction, is needed for deep, straight penetration, especially through heavy bone. Even a flat nose solid, excellent shape for penetration, cannot make up for poor sectional density or energy. The .500 400gr bullet only has a sectional density of .229 and therefore insufficient penetration to be relied upon for all DG, especially big, tough African DG over 1000 pounds.

I, like you, would still love to have a 500 S&W leveraction. I am a sucker for handgun/rifle combinations using the same ammo. I am not sure what I would do with it, but shooting things in Africa that could kill me before they die isn't one of them.

 

[michael458]

SD of .3 or better, and must have energy over 4000fpe, the higher the SD and the ME the better. This, along with great bullet construction, is needed for deep, straight penetration, especially through heavy bone.

I can't believe we are going over this again.........

This is only a partially correct statement. Energy? Honestly, that is a useless number that really means very little in reality, sorry. Sectional Density..... Only a Factor at all, if ALL OTHER FACTORS are equal. In the case of Solid Terminal Penetration, there are 8 Known Absolute Factors, and SD is Last, Factor #8.

#8 Sectional Density
Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............


550 Woodleigh FMJ SD= .374

325 CEB #13 Safari Solid SD= .221

.500 caliber 375 gr North Fork Solid SD= .214

.474 caliber 350 gr CEB Safari Solid SD= .223

The same holds true for modern Conventional Expanding and Modern CNC Trauma Inflicting bullets such as CEB Raptors, North Fork Expanding CPS, and Hammer/Lehigh type Copper HPs...... We look at "Terminal SD" of having any value, and not otherwise.

The .500 caliber and .474 caliber solids shown above, 375 gr .500s and 350 gr .474s were used on buffalo, hippo and elephant with incredible success, the only recovered solid was the 325 .458 caliber and that was frontal brain shot elephant. Side brain shot elephant with the 350 .474 caliber exited...... Buffalo and Hippo shot with the others all exited.
[/I]

The .500 400gr bullet only has a sectional density of .229 and therefore insufficient penetration to be relied upon for all DG, especially big, tough African DG over 1000 pounds.

Well, I have to differ on this statement as well. In 2013 I hunted with my 50 B&M Alaskan, lever gun, M71 with 18 inch barrel. Shooting 405 CEB Lever Solids at 2120 fps. This is .500 caliber, and a 405 has a SD of .231. I did recover some bullets from the hippo those estimated 4-5 ft of penetration, and 4 is ultra conservative.

On one buffalo I used a 405 Solid at about 40 yards running, second shot, I am not a good running shot, and hit right straight through the guts, and exited. What I did not know at the time, I hit a 3 inch diameter tree 10 steps in front of me, and 30 steps after going through the tree hit the buffalo in the guts, and still exited. Another 405 Solid fired a few minutes later on point of the shoulder facing me traveled at least 5 feet and was found in the rear end of the buffalo. Any broadside at all exited.

Bone was encountered in both......

A 500 S&W in a lever gun loaded with proper bullets will absolutely perform incredibly well, much better than most old standards loaded with common poorly designed bullets.

 

[analog_peninsula]

That’s great information. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[expresshunt]

Here in the land down under...we had a hunter bring his long heavy Ruger 416 Rigby... second trip he bought along his beloved very well used rusty ol Marlin 4570 with a Buffalo Bore load, and shot our biggest (at the time) ever Water Buffalo trophy out on a vast flood plain.. we were laying low in a rock hard dry mud wallow, ( like a small crater) trying to decide on two huge bulls.. when a monster emerged 600yds from the swamps behind us.. we got positioned in a bunker in front of him and waited it out.. Wally don't miss, and a huge 112 SCI point bull was down. Of course even with a heart shot, a couple more slugs where levered in..!!
Another time the 'famous to some' Tony Black Tx was on his second trip, and bought along his Theodore 405 Winchester. With bigger Heym doubles in camp that week he recieved some flack.. mainly from me for fun.. so when his turn came the big Buffalo turned to run.. first shot perfect, but before it bit the dust at full gallop.. it had 4 tough bullets levered in a lightening speed. Sensational shooting.. it was deader than dead.
On another note.. many years ago when options were lesser, in the Victoria mountains and hills hunting the Sambar deer was difficult, on hard to find and very flighty big Sambar, I recall some Vic locals fitting the strong Browning BLR with 458WM barrels and using 400 gainers, (as 500gr wasn't really needed I guess). Those who have hunted these deer know that many shots are at a fast departing animal in heavy bush, so a fast reload, still on shoulder, brush buster and heavy bullet required.
If the 450/400 has killed so many DG over 100+ years, then a lever loaded the same will also do the job. Personally I love all the 400 calibers... and need a 405 in camp.!!

 

[mgstucson]

@michael458
I have great respect for you as far as providing LOADS of great information on this forum about specific loads, and as an inventor of the B&M line of cartridges. I know you tout what you invent, and I see nothing wrong with that either. I also appreciate your sharing your actual hunting experiences. These are all extremely valuable to me as a reader.

Energy? Honestly, that is a useless number that really means very little in reality, sorry. Sectional Density..... Only a Factor at all, if ALL OTHER FACTORS are equal. In the case of Solid Terminal Penetration, there are 8 Known Absolute Factors, and SD is Last, Factor #8.

1. If energy is a "useless" number, then nearly every other writer on the subject including Boddington, Lott, Keith, nearly everyone, to a person, who could be named since gun writing came into existence, except you of course, has been completely wrong and should just stop writing, and we should all just listen to you.
2. I agree completely that the SD factor is only a factor "if ALL OTHER FACTORS are equal." It seems a rather obvious and useless statement, since it applies to all factors on this topic or any topic you could name.
3. Since penetration seems to be your preferred means on measurement, and since you love posting data, prove how "useless" energy is by taking any projectile you like, in any caliber you like, and vary only the energy, and compare penetration. SInce energy is a function of mass and velocity, you would need to do this in 2 parts to be completely scientific.

Part 1: Take an identical types of projectiles, vary only the mass, keeping the velocity constant, and see if penetration changes.

Part 2: Now take identical types of projectiles, vary only the velocity, and see if penetration changes.

4. Do the same with sectional density. Take an identical type of projectile, any projectile you prefer, and vary only the sectional density, and see is penetration changes. Since SD is a function of diameter and mass, this would need to be done in 2 parts also if you want to be thoroughly scientific.

Part 1: Take identical caliber bullets of the same type and vary only the weights, all other factors being equal, and see if weight's impact on SD changes penetration.

Part 2: Now take identical weight bullets of the same type, and vary only the caliber, all other factors being equal, and see if caliber's effect on SD changes penetration.

(You don't actually need to do any of this, we all know how it would turn out.)

In short, no factor is a factor unless all other factors are equal. Contrary to your assertions sir, energy and sectional density and every variable that could effect either are all crucial variables in penetration. Any of the tests above or below would be easy enough for you to do if you doubt it.

5. Where is your penetration comparison of a B&M 325gr 458 bullet at 2400fps compared to a BULLET OF IDENTICAL CONSTRUCTION a 458 Lott at 500gr and 2400fps? (you better have a long box to catch that 500gr monometal at 2400fps, it is going to be more than 52".) That would be a good SD comparison and energy comparison, all other factors being equal. Oh, you didn't do that one.

6. Where is your penetration comparison of identical types of bullets one at 400gr 416 bullet at 2150fps, another 400gr 458 bullet at 2150fps, and another 400gr 500 bullet at 2150fps. That would be another good SD test. Oh, you didn't do that one either.

(We all know how 5 and 6 would go also.)

You are a fine gentleman sir, and have done us all a great service by posting all the data you have here, and I for one appreciate that. You do yourself a great disservice by pretending that SD and ME are inconsequential numbers. This only harms your own credibility.