Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

[IvW]

My son and I rechambered our very light (7.25 lbs with scope) Rem XCR II in 375 H&H to 375 Weatherby. The motivation really was quality control from Remington or lack thereof. It came with an extractor too large to chamber factory Rem 375 H&H ammo and when I took it to the gunsmith I found out the chamber wasn't exactly perfect either. So I had a Sako extractor installed and had it rechambered to 375 Weatherby. It's been a great gun ever since. It's a bit snappy with 300g bullets at 2800 fps, but shooting factory 375 H&H rounds (300g at 2500 fps) it's a pussycat. It's very accurate with either load. Got my first brown bear with it at 13 yards so really didn't need the reach of the 375 Weatherby, but for long elk or eland shots it's there if you need it.

As far as speed not killing, given the choice between being shot in the shoulder with a 25-20 or a 257 Weatherby Mag, I'm thinking I'm picking the 25-20

As for "Improving" the 375 H&H(the King of the medium calibre's), it does make sense IF-you do so to gain a bit more case capacity to keep chamber pressures down when loading the super heavy weight bullets. We have a locally made 380 grain 375 H&H bullet designed specifically for buffalo hunting. In the standard case and with our local powders you can get realistically 2200 Fps. If you would like to increase that to 2300 Fps which is a superb speed for dangerous game hunting, it would make sense to increase case capacity in order to achieve that. The best option is to then go the AI route as you can still shoot standard ammunition in an AI chamber. This will give you roughly 9% more case capacity.

If you increase case capacity purely to shoot 300gr bullets faster this is the wrong way to go as the 300 grain bullet in the standard 375 H&H loading is going fast enough at 2500 Fps.

I have two 375 H&H rifles and have been considering to do the AI conversion or alternatively to re-barrel to 404 Jeff. I may well first do the AI chamber and see how that works out with the 380 grain bullets.

 

[IvW]

If the bullet construction is not up to it, velocity is a detriment, but with today's excellent bullets (Swift A-Frames, NorthFork Softs and Cup Points) it's not an issue as long as you stay within their velocity parameters. Should we be shooting 30-30s at plains game (170g bullet at 2100 fps) instead of a 30-06 or a 300 Win Mag? Should we go back to shooting black powder 8 bores instead of 416 Rigbys, 500 Jefferys? I don't think so.

Neither do I.

The original question is related to 375 and up cartridges, and why PH dislike clients bringing such rifle calibres to hunt in Africa with.

You do not need the excessive speed or recoil generated by the Weatherby cartridges. The mildest one is probably the 375 Weatherby.

The 378 Weatherby and 460 Weatherby are just verocious on re-coil and I personally have never seen anybody who can handle or shoot either well.

To add insult to injury, most of these hot shot Weatherby's are then fitted with muzzle breaks to try and tame the recoil.

Have you stood next to a client shooting a 378 Weatherby or 460 Weatherby with a muzzle brake on while you are looking through your binoculars and he decides to pull the trigger!? After the dust settles and your ears are still ringing, you cannot hear your tracker say bad shot!

Not pleasant and not needed in Africa, unless you can truly handle these behemoths without a muzzle brake. If not, I would prefer clients leave them at home. They are just too much and nothing good, I can say about them for hunting in Africa.

Nothing wrong with the rifle or the action, just download them to a sensible velocity if you want to bring them to Africa, or better still stick to the originals, they perform a lot better in Africa.

375 H&H instead of 375 or 378 Weatherby, 416 Rigby instead of 416 Weatherby, any 458 Lott instead of 460 Weatherby!

If you still need more the 500 Jeff or 505 Gibbs or any of the NE cartridges should satisfy those needs rather than the Weatherby route.

 

[colorado]

Thanks! Good hunting!

 

[JimP]

There has always been and will always be a love hate relationship with the Weatherby's.

I have found that no matter what the caliber or cambering is that if you can not shoot 3 shots through it accuratly then you have no business shooting that rifle. It doesn't matter if it is a .22lr or a .378 Weatherby. Some hunters on their first dangerous game hunt such as the big bears or the big 5 in Africa figure that the bigger the better when they walk into their local gun shop looking for that rifle. Then the salesman pulls that .378 Weatherby off of the rack and places it into the buyers hands and tells him that it will knock don't anything on the earth. He then plop's down a couple boxes of shells and sends the buyer on his merry way.

Then by the time the hunter gets to Africa he has shot 10 of those rounds and has a problem hitting a 55 gallon drum at 100 yards, and people wonder why PH's and other guides hate it when a hunter shows up with one?

I have shot a .378 a few times and while it does let you know that you have a very powerful rifle in your hands I don't find it overly so. But I try to limit myself to only 5 shots a day from one. Also if you don't practice with one enough you will develop a flinch that is going to be hard to get rid of. If I notice myself developing one I usually put that rifle away for a few days. It has happened to me with a .22-250 as well, sometimes it just happens. Then there is the muzzle brakes, they work wonders when shooting any of the Weatherby's. But I see no need to have one on when hunting and if you do then you better be considerate of the people around you. When I went on my safari I had a muzzle brake on my .340 Weatherby and when my PH saw it he just rolled his eyes. This was at the range, but then after we had rechecked the zero on the rifle I removed it and I could almost see the relief from my PH when I did so.

For the cost of ammo, if you don't reload then you better have deep pockets for the factory ammo. By reloading you can cut the price of a box of 20 by 80% or more, that is once you have the brass to reload it. If not then your first set of reloads is going to be about 1/2 of what factory ammo is.

 

[colorado]

I agree wholeheartedly. My sons and I have been shooting together since they each reached 8 years old . I had been fortunate enought in my youth to hunt 100 days a year before i had to get a "real job". Now we only get to hunt twice a year together, but hunting with your children is a special thing. I gave my youngest my prized 270, since then I've been huntimg everything (deer, bear, elk) here in the West with my 500 Jeffery so when the time comes that I can afford to go to Africa, it just feels natural in my hands. Two elk, two bears, shutout on deer so far with it

 

[Savage Hunter]

So is the consensus that nothing wrong with the weatherby rifle but maybe the choice in caliber?

A weatherby chambered in 375 h&h is acceptable?

 

[IvW]

So is the consensus that nothing wrong with the weatherby rifle but maybe the choice in caliber?

A weatherby chambered in 375 h&h is acceptable?

Yes. Only need to check the safety on some Weatherby it will fire if you take the safety off.

 

[JimP]

Yes. Only need to check the safety on some Weatherby it will fire if you take the safety off.

If that were the case then I would suppose that we would of heard of a recall or safety warnings from either Weatherby or the government.

Look at what went on at Remington because of this issue.

 

[boldo 42]

I don't own a Weatherby but I am inclined to think that this is about esthetics and politics, not about too much power. A 375 will kill anything but people go to hunt Africa with .40 and .50 cal rifles and no one says much about it being too powerful - it is nostalgic - but mention the double raidus shoulder and things get ugly. And, I am sure unprepared shooters carry all manner of Remington

I don't think energy is the issue here , everyone is talking about the velocity the ammo is capable of. You can handle 5000ftlbs at 2300 but when that 5000 is coming back at 2700 fps , then you get problems.

 

[IvW]

If that were the case then I would suppose that we would of heard of a recall or safety warnings from either Weatherby or the government.

Look at what went on at Remington because of this issue.

I personally have had clients with two Weatherby rifles have AD's(accidental discharge) while hunting due to this problem, one a 340 Weatherby the other a 460 Weatherby. You want to make absolutely sure that if you use a Weatherby that this does not happen with your rifle. It scared the living daylights out of me and the clients and could have been fatal.

You may also want to read this post. Rifle Lessons Learned from the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter Proficiency Exam

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...e-professional-hunter-proficiency-exam.14931/

QUOTE "I'll start with my least favourite rifle:- the Weatherby. We don't often see them out here, thank goodness. The one we had this year exhibited the usual Weatherby failing of going off when the safety catch was disengaged. Like all I've seen with this problem, they work fine on the range. It is only after they have been bounced, bumped or jolted whilst loaded and on safe that they do this. I'm sure the problem is correctable and not all do it, however, this one would also not extract at all after the eighth round. It showed decidedly sticky extraction after the first three shots and finally died on number eight. It gives me great pleasure than to dig out my 2lb hammer and beat the bolt of a new rifle open whilst giving the owner a lecture on the benefits of reloading. Weatherby factory ammo always gives extraction problems and needs to be down loaded for use in hot conditions. The .460 is notorious and this .416 proved no different." UN-QUOTE

 

[IvW]

I don't think energy is the issue here , everyone is talking about the velocity the ammo is capable of. You can handle 5000ftlbs at 2300 but when that 5000 is coming back at 2700 fps , then you get problems.

Agreed, therefore I suggest downloading your Weatherby to sensible velocity, it not only shoots better it also kills better on the front end and not on the back end!

 

[Nicholas Barcomb]

Haven't hunted Africa yet. Still planning, but the day is coming soon! I am of the crowd of energy transference and do hunt with a 6.5 x 55 SE for NA big game. Recently I have sold a Ruger #1 in .405 Winchester and purchased a CZ550 Safari in .416 Rigby as a DG rifle when I go to Africa. I have a buddy that says he wants to hunt Africa and currently owns a Weatherby in .300 WBY Mag and another rifle in .300 Winchester Mag. He says he got them to hunt bear and deer up in West Virginia where he grew up. I haven't ever heard him tell any hunting stories, has no mounts, or even shows ny photos of any animals that he harvested. Anyway, i even told him that that was waaaayyyy too much cartridge for whitetail and black bear unless you plan to start at a distance of 300 to 1000 yds for a decent humane kill. He then went on to say that he likes the bang/ flop when he squeezes the trigger. I asked him how far he has had to track any of his animals and he stated that they die right there. Didn't argue with him about this, but he wants to go to Africa and wants to go with a Weatherby Mark V in .460 WBY Mag. I told him good luck and I hope you can deal with the shoulder surgery for replacement!!!!!!!

 

[IvW]

Haven't hunted Africa yet. Still planning, but the day is coming soon! I am of the crowd of energy transference and do hunt with a 6.5 x 55 SE for NA big game. Recently I have sold a Ruger #1 in .405 Winchester and purchased a CZ550 Safari in .416 Rigby as a DG rifle when I go to Africa. I have a buddy that says he wants to hunt Africa and currently owns a Weatherby in .300 WBY Mag and another rifle in .300 Winchester Mag. He says he got them to hunt bear and deer up in West Virginia where he grew up. I haven't ever heard him tell any hunting stories, has no mounts, or even shows ny photos of any animals that he harvested. Anyway, i even told him that that was waaaayyyy too much cartridge for whitetail and black bear unless you plan to start at a distance of 300 to 1000 yds for a decent humane kill. He then went on to say that he likes the bang/ flop when he squeezes the trigger. I asked him how far he has had to track any of his animals and he stated that they die right there. Didn't argue with him about this, but he wants to go to Africa and wants to go with a Weatherby Mark V in .460 WBY Mag. I told him good luck and I hope you can deal with the shoulder surgery for replacement!!!!!!!

You are very sensible with regards to your caliber choices. Both are exceptional cartridges and come with enviable reputations. You will be more than happy with their performance on African game.

I hope your buddy listens to your advise. Good luck to your Buddy though, 460 WBY Mag is gonna beat him into submission after not many shots! Hope for his sake the PH has a 375 H&H, 404 Jeff or 416 Rigby in camp he can use.

300 Win mag with decent heavy for calibre bullets is good for PG at longer range. 180-220 grains and he could hunt all PG with it.

But the 460 ouch!, I would steer well clear!

 

[JimP]

I personally have had clients with two Weatherby rifles have AD's(accidental discharge) while hunting due to this problem, one a 340 Weatherby the other a 460 Weatherby. You want to make absolutely sure that if you use a Weatherby that this does not happen with your rifle. It scared the living daylights out of me and the clients and could have been fatal.

You may also want to read this post. Rifle Lessons Learned from the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter Proficiency Exam

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...e-professional-hunter-proficiency-exam.14931/

QUOTE "I'll start with my least favourite rifle:- the Weatherby. We don't often see them out here, thank goodness. The one we had this year exhibited the usual Weatherby failing of going off when the safety catch was disengaged. Like all I've seen with this problem, they work fine on the range. It is only after they have been bounced, bumped or jolted whilst loaded and on safe that they do this. I'm sure the problem is correctable and not all do it, however, this one would also not extract at all after the eighth round. It showed decidedly sticky extraction after the first three shots and finally died on number eight. It gives me great pleasure than to dig out my 2lb hammer and beat the bolt of a new rifle open whilst giving the owner a lecture on the benefits of reloading. Weatherby factory ammo always gives extraction problems and needs to be down loaded for use in hot conditions. The .460 is notorious and this .416 proved no different." UN-QUOTE

Sounds like some amateur gunsmith was attempting to set the trigger pull and sear engagement. There are a lot of people out there like this, they will adjust everything without knowing what is going to happen later.

As I mentioned in my first post, I would be willing to bet that if this happens on a regular basis you would see a lawsuit against Weatherby and a recall on their rifles. It didn't take much to do it to Remington with their trigger recall and it was for the same reason, the rifle would fire when the safety was removed.

 

[Pheroze]

I don't think energy is the issue here , everyone is talking about the velocity the ammo is capable of. You can handle 5000ftlbs at 2300 but when that 5000 is coming back at 2700 fps , then you get problems.

A very important point. Now that I think about it I felt the recoil from the 270 wsm in a T3 was worse than most other rifles I have fired. The speed it comes back was jarring and, had I kept that rifle, I probably would not have practiced much. My 375 was much more civilized!

 

[Gemsbok Gangsta]

If you look at the Vanguard triggers and feel the weight of aforementioned trigger going to Timney triggers is a no brainer. Setting both my 300 and 257 too 2.5 pounds helped improve accuracy with both rifles..

 

[Ray B]

I've not fired a 378 Wby, but I have fired a M70 375 RUM. I found the recoil to be fine- certainly noticeable that the gun was not a misfire but I doubt that shooting it will result in the need for shoulder surgery. It was barreled by CP Donnelly with a 28" fairly heavy taper, weight of rifle with 4-24x scope 11# 5oz. the rifle has two purposes- open country elk, for which I use 250 gr bullets and long range target (1000m+) for which I use 350 gr.
According to load data the RUM is very close to the Wby, so I guess the reason the rifle that I use is not abusive is the longer than normal barrel and it's weight is probably about 2# more than a standard Weatherby.

 

[IvW]

I've not fired a 378 Wby, but I have fired a M70 375 RUM. I found the recoil to be fine- certainly noticeable that the gun was not a misfire but I doubt that shooting it will result in the need for shoulder surgery. It was barreled by CP Donnelly with a 28" fairly heavy taper, weight of rifle with 4-24x scope 11# 5oz. the rifle has two purposes- open country elk, for which I use 250 gr bullets and long range target (1000m+) for which I use 350 gr.
According to load data the RUM is very close to the Wby, so I guess the reason the rifle that I use is not abusive is the longer than normal barrel and it's weight is probably about 2# more than a standard Weatherby.

And with a weight of over 11 pounds and a 28 inch barrel that is sure going to be fun dragging that thing around in the African bush. Not the ideal set-up for hunting in Africa, manageable recoil or not.

 

[Ray B]

And with a weight of over 11 pounds and a 28 inch barrel that is sure going to be fun dragging that thing around in the African bush. Not the ideal set-up for hunting in Africa, manageable recoil or not.

The activities were noted. If you want to expand the list to include pushing through Jungle, be my guest, but I suggest you carry it rather than drag it. And you might want to remove your jack and compare it to a 378 Wby, the purpose of the post.

 

[colorado]

Art Alphin (much maligned and maybe deservedly so) who developed the 500 A2 said he only shot a 378 Weatherby once and that was enough. I took that as a serious warning.