Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

Discussion in 'Firearms & Ammunition' started by Norway_woods, Jan 12, 2017.

  1. daawg1963

    daawg1963 AH Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2017
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    washington state
    Member of:
    sci and boone and crockett
    460 Weatherby is a powerful reliable tool good for anything that walks if you can shoot it well - 378 Weatherby is powerful long range weapon with great knock down power as well - if you shoot them well and someone doesn't approve who cares
     
    Rule 303, JimP, ArmyGrunt and 3 others like this.

  2. Paul Homsy

    Paul Homsy AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2017
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    69
    I completely agree.
     

  3. ArmyGrunt

    ArmyGrunt AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,697
    Video/Photo:
    63
    Likes Received:
    2,145
    Hunted:
    USA, South Africa, Hungary
    How about a Pac-Man, with mouth open towards the poop emoji? I think naysayers need that on occasion!
     

  4. Paul Homsy

    Paul Homsy AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2017
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    69
    Your Pac-Man suggestion is as good as it gets...lol, although I don't feel this harshly towards naysayers, at times I wonder if their opinion is strictly based on fact or hearsay...What gets me is that Weatherbys get the brunt of these opinions. In my view they may not be for everyone but there is a definite place for them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
    Hogpatrol likes this.

  5. ArmyGrunt

    ArmyGrunt AH Elite

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,697
    Video/Photo:
    63
    Likes Received:
    2,145
    Hunted:
    USA, South Africa, Hungary
    I'll happily give a shot with anything. I'll be honest though, that 10g shotgun was not for me!
     

  6. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,150
    Video/Photo:
    50
    Likes Received:
    7,928
    Location:
    Delaware, USA
    Member of:
    Atglen Sportsmen's Club, NRA ,SCCFSA
    Hunted:
    RSA, DE, NJ, PA, KS, TX
    I'm not a fan of the big boomers, you know, the ones that kill on one end and maim on the other. :p:D
     
    Paul Homsy, ZG47 and ArmyGrunt like this.

  7. Dr Ray

    Dr Ray AH Elite

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,964
    Video/Photo:
    16
    Likes Received:
    1,368
    Location:
    Cairns, Australia
    Great advice.
     
    Paul Homsy and Hogpatrol like this.

  8. One Day...

    One Day... AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2018
    Messages:
    778
    Video/Photo:
    278
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    Member of:
    PHASA
    Hunted:
    Europe, America, Canada, Africa

    WOW!!!!!! I realize that the thread has been inactive recently, but since THIS IS COMPLETELY INCORRECT, and since this could potentially misguide someone into an unsafe situation, in all due respect to @IvW, this needs to be corrected.

    The round plunger ahead (right) of the Allen bolt head on the Weatherby Mark V action is NOT "the round pin/plunger/sear that engages with the firing pin as the action is closed" as @IvW stated. It is the plunger that rides in a groove along the length of the bolt and guides the bolt as it slides back & forth and keeps it from rotating prematurely. This plunger is depressed to remove the bolt by pressing the trigger, and if you erroneously press the trigger while moving the bolt you will verify its role by discovering that the bolt can then be rotated prematurely.
    The sear that engages the firing pin is the square part visible behind (left) the Allen bolt head. By the way, the role of this Allen bolt head is to secure the trigger group to the action, therefore it is indeed important to verify from time to time that it is tight (it comes locked from the factory), otherwise the firing pin sear may slip off the trigger sear, which would not be the result of a Weatherby defect (as speculated earlier in the thread), but the likely outcome of some misguided and - clearly - technically unqualified home-grown 'gunsmithing'...

    Hence the value of firing pin blocking safety, as opposed to a trigger blocking safety, but this is another discussion, save noting that the Weatherby Mark V DOES have a firing pin blocking safety, which many, many other guns do not...

    As to "I think the round shape helps make the trigger as smooth and good as it is" as @IvW speculates, well ... not quite LOL. What makes the trigger release smooth and crisp is the smooth and perfectly aligned FLAT surface of the trigger sear sliding on the smooth FLAT surface of the firing pin sear, and the sharp edge of the firing pin sear tripping off the sharp edge of the trigger sear.

    Sorry to intervene in this discussion, but there is enough well-intended but misguided internet 'expertise' out there - including sad to say sometimes on africahunting.com - that when it comes to potential safety situations with self-styled 'advises' or 'explanations' on triggers, safeties and such... it is worth correcting. Maybe actually identifying the proper parts and their function can indeed help preventing another accidental discharge, as lamented earlier in the thread... This may also put into an interesting perspective some quite doctrinal pronouncements made earlier in the thread regarding the reliability of the Weatherby Mark V action, or other subject matters related to actions, calibers, recoil, etc. if this is indeed the level of technical 'expertise' such pronouncements rest upon ;-)

    'Nough said...
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
    cem rona ergin, JimP and ZG47 like this.

  9. One Day...

    One Day... AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2018
    Messages:
    778
    Video/Photo:
    278
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    Member of:
    PHASA
    Hunted:
    Europe, America, Canada, Africa
    As to "why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers (generally) not liked on a Safari?" this is the same reason why fast cars and fast motorcycles are (generally) not liked by insurance companies. These are high performance tools that should only be used by people qualified to use them. When properly used by qualified people, Weatherby guns, Porsche cars or BMW super bikes, do things other guns, cars, or bikes, can't do. Period. When poorly used by folks who should know better, including their own limitations ... bad things happen and people can die. Quite simple actually.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
    JimP, Mekaniks, TTundra and 2 others like this.

  10. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,150
    Video/Photo:
    50
    Likes Received:
    7,928
    Location:
    Delaware, USA
    Member of:
    Atglen Sportsmen's Club, NRA ,SCCFSA
    Hunted:
    RSA, DE, NJ, PA, KS, TX
    In other words, money won't buy skills, experience or wisdom.
     
    jeanes, JimP, Mekaniks and 2 others like this.

  11. IvW

    IvW AH Elite

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    1,994
    Video/Photo:
    57
    Likes Received:
    3,233
    Location:
    South Africa
    Member of:
    BASA, CHASA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Namibia,Zambia
    Thanks for clearing that up in so much detail. I am not a Weatherby expert or gunsmith but I found this loose bolt to be the issue with my rifle and incorrectly presumed that it engaged the firing pin.

    Bottom line is if that bolt is loose the rifle is not safe to use.
     

  12. Ray B

    Ray B AH Elite

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,245
    Video/Photo:
    17
    Likes Received:
    986
    Location:
    WA St, USA
    Those loose bolts can be a problem, but generally there are bigger problems created by the loose nuts.:):)
     
    One Day... and ZG47 like this.

  13. ZG47

    ZG47 AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2015
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    233
    Location:
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Member of:
    NZDA, NZMSC
    Hunted:
    New Zealand
    What he said!
     
    jeanes and Dr Ray like this.

  14. Dr Ray

    Dr Ray AH Elite

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,964
    Video/Photo:
    16
    Likes Received:
    1,368
    Location:
    Cairns, Australia
    I like the weatherby rifles. Pity they are push feed but still ...
    Have only used 257 and 460.
    The latter is sure a big recoiler!
    Had Baz 500’s 460 actually flex the stock so much the cartridge feel out of the magazine.
    I really think the PHs feel that the recoil of the weatherbys is too much for hunters who develop flinches and wound game.
    I don’t think it’s because of the cartridge so much. Very high (relatively speaking) Bullets penetrating tough animals may open up much too quickly causing massive flesh wounds.
     
    cem rona ergin likes this.

  15. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH ENABLER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,482
    Video/Photo:
    68
    Likes Received:
    2,726
    Location:
    North America
    Member of:
    NRA Life Benefactor, Trout Unlimited, Safari Club International
    The hyperbole and analogies used above are both over-the-top and misplaced. The middle of the bell curve, slightly or moderately above average quality weatherby rifle is not a "high performance tool", its a $2000-$4000 mass produced push feed rifle with an odd stock. Comparing superbikes and porsches to a weatherby is a strange analogy for me as I could list of a dozen guns of manufacture that might better fit that description but certainly none of them are going to be called a weatherby. (Hartmann & Weis, Heym, Dakota, Mauser, Griffin & Howe, Rigby, Watson Brothers, etc.)

    There are actually two debates going on so its best to separate them: Weatherby RIFLES and Weatherby Cartridges. I find Weatherby cartridges of 30 caliber and above to be needlessly overpowered, damaging to their actions, and they provide no significant improvement to maximum point blank range worthy of the trouble. The second debate is weatherby crafted rifles, which are average quality rifles for the semi-custom range and I'm not sold they have a major competitive advantage in comparison to many other options at their pricepoints.
     

  16. flat8

    flat8 AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    450
    Video/Photo:
    113
    Likes Received:
    589
    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Member of:
    DSC, NRA
    Hunted:
    USA, RSA
    I've never owned a Weatherby nor shot anything chambered in a Weatherby cartridge, but I've always been interested in .257 WM . . .
     

  17. CTDolan

    CTDolan AH Elite

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,433
    Video/Photo:
    18
    Likes Received:
    1,247
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Weatherby rifles are unique, loathed by some and loved by others. I've had two that would qualify as dangerous game medicine, one a 378 and the other a 460. The problems with each:

    1. 26" barrel + muzzle break (which I tended to not use)
    2. Push feed (not necessarily the detraction some would think)
    3. Marginal capacity (2+1, definitely less than most want but, in reality, not a show stopper)
    4. Ungainly (by far their worst characteristic, in my opinion)

    As for the cartridges, if you've a stout bullet and can tolerate the recoil, they're serious thumpers (a bit much for most situations but certainly capable).
     
    Hogpatrol likes this.

  18. Jay Bucher

    Jay Bucher AH Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    32
    Video/Photo:
    7
    Likes Received:
    32
    Location:
    North Florida
    Member of:
    NRA
    The only knock on Weatherbys that I seen or read was conserning .460 Weatherby. I read in a post on this site from a PH and a PH in Africa said the same thing. Factory Ammo has a tendency to be too hot and will lock the bolt up. The PH I was talking with said he has seen it enogh times and will not allow its use with dangerous game. They called it a rubber mallet rifle, you should have a rubber mallet with you because you will eventually need it.

    Jay
     
    Hogpatrol likes this.

  19. One Day...

    One Day... AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2018
    Messages:
    778
    Video/Photo:
    278
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    Member of:
    PHASA
    Hunted:
    Europe, America, Canada, Africa
    Good points @rookhawk. I agree, at least partially. I was generally referring to Weatherby cartridges when speaking of high performance. Come to think of it, I personally do not associate a gun with "performance". Engineering, quality, finish, looks, accuracy, materials, etc. are more what comes to my mind.

    The Wby rifles are pretty average in MY view. Having been spoiled probably by a childhood in Europe, I personally do not associate the Wby brand with out-of-the-ordinary gun quality. I only own one, it is OK, but I prefer the quality of - take a pick among what's in my safe: Mauser 98 (the well crafted ones, because truth be told there also are some pretty crappy ones), Mauser 66, Sauer 90, Steyr Mannlicher Luxus, Dumoulin (on Mauser action), Heym (Classic Big 5), Griffin & Howe (on Brno action), or even CZ 550, etc. No contest here. I also fail to see what could be better in a Wby Mark V over a Winchester 70 Classic, and I confess to preferring controlled round feed to push feed, although, honestly, I have yet to see one push feed fail in close to 45 years of hunting and shooting with folks using push feed guns (European or American).

    The Wby cartridges are objectively high performance cartridges. Maybe needlessly for some (and I certainly respect that), but very usefully for others (which I respect too). I personally limit myself to 400 meters ethical shooting when I hunt (although I shoot steel quite well past 1,000 meters), so I am not part of those who want hyper velocity and light bullets to snipe game at 700 yards, but I will tell you very specifically what I like in the mid caliber Weatherby cartridges: a .300 Wby 200 gr or a .340 Wby 250 gr zeroed at 300 yards will be +4 to 6" high at 100 and 200 yd and -9" to 11" low at 400 yd. So, I put the horizontal cross hair on the belly line between 0 and 200 yd (and hit the heart 6" higher); I aim dead center at 300 yd; and I put the horizontal cross hair on the shoulder line at 400 yd (and drop into the lungs). Additionally, I have the reach and the horsepower to make a quartering away finishing shot on about anything for which the two cartridges are intended (small, medium and large plains game). This has worked remarkably well for me in places with open spaces, from Europe to USA to Canada, on anything from roe buck to moose. And I would gladly add a .257 Wby if I was not a bit concerned that it might be a bit light on some combo hunts. And, honestly, this is where the 150 gr load for the .300 Wby shines. Could I do the same with a .300 Win and a .338 Win, probably, but not with such simplicity. This is where mid caliber Wby cartridges shine, not in the additional paper PBR (which I agree is not all that impressive) but in the field use of an additional hundred yard of zero. When hunting in denser places and shorter ranges, I am partial to full stock Mannlicher-style guns (Steyr, Dumoulin, etc.) and I trade the .340 Wby for a .338 Win and the .300 Wby for 7x64; 7x65R; .270; .256; 6 mm depending on the game and - mostly - the mood of the day. Now you may agree or disagree with my rationale, but at least I offer one, and ... hopefully ... it may offer value to a reader here or there...

    To finish with Wby cartridges, while I DO agree that Wby speed for DG cartridges (.375 and up) is out of MY context, I appreciate the flat shooting characteristics of the .300 Wby and - especially - .340 Wby, and their recoil is (to ME) perfectly acceptable in what I would call realistic guns. My .340 (see
    https://www.africahunting.com/media...stainless-new-haven-made-300-wby-rifle.61218/) weighs in at 10 lbs 9 oz (which is pretty standard despite some earlier comments on the thread about supposedly unwieldy 11 lbs guns on safari) and produces a recoil energy of 36 ft lbs. For comparison my .416 Rigby (see https://www.africahunting.com/media/cz-550-416-rigby-rifle-mauser-66-458-lott-rifle.61217/) weighs in at 10 lbs 10 oz (which is also pretty standard) and produces a recoil energy of 55 ft lbs. We do not hear too many folks bashing the recoil of the .416 Rigby, do we? Yes, I know that the .416 Wby recoil more (~80 ft lbs to be specific), but so does my .458 Lott, which at 9 lbs is too light (for ME) and I can only blame ME for it because it did not recoil so much when it was a .458 Win. And if you want a 6 lbs .340 Wby, have at it, this is a free country, but do not come crying on my shoulder, and do not ask me to shoot it LOL.

    I guess the part that ticks me off a little bit in all this - and this should probably be my last post on this subject before I annoy too many folks LOL - is the doctrinal tone of some pronouncements by some folks. Tell us that gun brand XYZ is not YOUR cup of tea, it is quite appropriate, but spare us please the final and universal condemnation that gun XYZ, cartridge ABC, or whatever, is a complete POS (because of YOUR sad experience with it). And for Pete's sake, spare us the undocumented, third-removed hearsay of this or that gun failure. If half of what is written on the internet was true, gun makers would have been sued out of business a long time ago.
    The reality is that for every fool who shows up in camp with a brand new canon (insert here the gun brand and the caliber you want), there is a quiet guy who shows up with the same gun and/or caliber and handles it perfectly. Yep, there are (verified) PHs who have horror stories on Wby guns and calibers, but there are also just as many (or more?) who have seen many folks handle them very competently. The aforementioned bell curve alone (and the statistical distribution that it represents) testifies to that ;-)

    So, when we are done bashing Weatherby, what about talking about guys who hit the rear trigger of their double under recoil and blame the gun for doubling on them? or what about talking about "factory" loads that blow up guns and turn out to have been ludicrously overloaded reloads? or what about loose screws or slipping sears on "factory" guns that turn out to have been butchered by home-grown 'gunsmiths'? or what about wandering zeroes on scopes that turn out to be poorly mounted? or what about (oooh!) 'expert' opinions from folks who have never even handled or fired in their entire life gun XYZ or cartridge ABC - I know, I am getting onto thin ice here LOL - etc. etc. You get my drift ;-)

    Let the Weatherby lovers love their Weatherby!
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
    1dirthawker and Rule 303 like this.

  20. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH ENABLER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,482
    Video/Photo:
    68
    Likes Received:
    2,726
    Location:
    North America
    Member of:
    NRA Life Benefactor, Trout Unlimited, Safari Club International
    @One Day... I liked your post very much. Very good points and respectable opinions, thanks for sharing.

    While Weatherby "calibers" are not my cup of tea, there is no denying that even the recoil averse can enjoy the benefits of the .257W and the .270W that are storied calibers that shoot very flat and kill very effectively. I've not owned either but would not hesitate to do so if I found a nice vintage Griffin & Howe so configured. I just do not like Roy Weatherby stocked guns (opinion) and I think the mutated stock as a means to reduce recoil by pushing your face off the comb with negative drops at comb is a form of sacrilege. Others disagree, to each their own on that preference, but I go with 200 years of stockmaking tradition and near infinite hours refining that design over the past 200 years trumps something Roy came up with circa 1957 to cooperate with excessively violent recoil in his magnums. Again, my preferences, I'm in a different clique.
     
    Hogpatrol and sierraone like this.

Share This Page

 
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice