Why are Weatherby guns in 375+ calibers not liked on a Safari?

Discussion in 'Firearms & Ammunition' started by Norway_woods, Jan 12, 2017.

  1. Odinsraven

    Odinsraven AH Fanatic

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    The 30 378 was designed for shaprel testing orgionally ...so with the folly of youth ......i put the stock back on the barreled receiver acquired a scope and off to the range we went .....me being the only one among us possessing a 375hh waa first to go ......... that rifle went back to the test range and the stock removed .........who in their right mind needs that ........7x57 a century ago did for the animals that roam Africa .......303 brit did the same with finesse .......

    Have african animals grown so tough that soo n a min calibre for springbok will be 375hh 300gr min ....Kudu will be 400gr 40 cal and a buff will require at least 30mm cannon ..........

    Without opening old wounds what was used a century ago still works .......

    Though a weatherby guy in camp is always fun ..... closely followed by the RUM guys ........
     
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  2. Paul Homsy

    Paul Homsy AH Veteran

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    The 7x57 and 303 used on elephant were loaded with armor piercing rounds which today are illegal. Armor piercing rounds are different than solids. There was no "finesse". For plains game a 30-06 is just one of the ideal rounds available in my opinion and that of many better informed.
    I'm glad you find humour in the Weatherby and RUM toting guys, it's always nice to have a reason to laugh. You seem to have only seen clowns in camp; I'm glad you found entertainment in the bush. I on the other hand have seen some phenomenal shots using the most powerful Weatherbys and RUMs in the states. From fast accurate very close range snap shooting, including at dangerous game, big and small, to mid range standing unsupported shots to perfectly placed shots at distances I wont even mention. Of course we also have those bar stool prophets who say that a .243 is all they need. It takes all kinds and we're grateful to have them.

    Weatherbys and RUMs add punch and extend the range when necessary for those who can shoot them. Like a fast car, they aren't for everyone.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
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  3. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Late to the thread by my take is, if you are proficient with your firearm and know its capabilities with the ammo you're using, it doesn't matter what brand you shoot.
     
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  4. JimP

    JimP AH Elite

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    This sounds like a hunter problem and not a rifle problem.

    If you can't handle the recoil and make a killing shot then it is your problem and not the rifles.

    This falls back on the philosophy that firearms are responsible solely for mass murders and spoons make me fat.
     
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  5. Odinsraven

    Odinsraven AH Fanatic

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    Why do you need to extend the range ? I am a culler and shoot 200 plus per year ....in Africa ...i trophy hunt warthog .....300m on culling as i use science as in flight time of bullet ........seen the rum ...weatherby guys and cleaned up after a shot over 300 is not ethical as time of flight of bullet is too long ..... warthog 15 m is my best 100 my worsr
     

  6. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Your rifle must be a real slug or your ammo is a slug. My rifle's TOF to 300m is 1/3 of a second, to 1000m 1.4 seconds. I admit an animal can move in that time frame but 300m is a chip shot to most magnums or other high energy calibers like the 28 Nosler, 7mmSTW, 7mmRM, 300 WinMag, 7mmSaum, 300RUM, 338WBY, etc.
     
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  7. Odinsraven

    Odinsraven AH Fanatic

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    Yes indeed to 1000 tof is 1.4 if you can hit the target ...if an animal can move at 300 max and my preferred is 200 a heart lung becomes a neck or liver shot ..... at 1000 another idiots fuckup I mau have to sort out .......you are not a sniper the definition of which is to lay down effective suppressive fire and target high value targets ....

    Ok I will call you out as the laws of physics are on my side ....you are an unethical idiot if you are shooting on an animal at 1000 m or indeed 500m even with a .2moa rifle and your skills you are guaranteed to wound ...... I hsve yet to see a .2moa hunting rifle ...

    But how much culling hsve you done ? Wounded to recovered ...first shot kill or drop to followup ....numbers and percentages would be informative .......as a world can change in 1.4 seconds
     
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  8. Odinsraven

    Odinsraven AH Fanatic

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  9. Odinsraven

    Odinsraven AH Fanatic

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    So why do you need to extend the range 275 rigby and 303 were supplied in SP and AP.was not developed until the 30's Elephant which I did not mention were shot with FMJ as Mr Bell and Taylor have admitted .....so the RUM weatherby and others of their type ...why need them to shoot at extended ranges where the laws of chance.and indeed physics precludes a clean kill .....ego or bravado or an inability to stalk an animal ......or on a darker side wishing to use an animal for target practice ?
     

  10. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Starting to think this is a PETA troll. Either that or a paper plate shooter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017

  11. broncolcj

    broncolcj AH Enthusiast

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    Probably PETA
     
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  12. Paul Homsy

    Paul Homsy AH Veteran

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    Chance has no "laws", it's "preparation meeting opportunity". Physics does.


    Either PETA or an uninformed "white knight" for the conventional cartridges fraternity.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
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  13. Odinsraven

    Odinsraven AH Fanatic

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    Ahh guys tell me how many trips to Africa... how many animals cullled ? Read any of my hunting reports ? Culled in Europe ? Guided professionaly ? Been a hunting agent ? Or indeed an FFl ?

    Just getting a feel for your level of experience ....

    Though i get the feeling yoi are vastly more experienced than myself ..........
     

  14. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    :S Bs Flag:
     

  15. Pheroze

    Pheroze AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    :unsure: not so sure about that, he has been here a long time and posted a bunch
     
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  16. Ole Bally

    Ole Bally AH Fanatic

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    Heck... lots whining in this thread! ! :)
    If you can't take the recoil... either down load it or don't buy one... you can't blame the tool if you can't handle it!!!
    The nice thing about them is there's plenty of case space to make your own dream load!
     
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  17. IvW

    IvW AH Elite

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    Your statement regarding "armour piercing" ammunition is unfortunately just not true.

    https://www.africahunting.com/threads/wdm-bell-his-elephant-hunting-rifles.15057/

    “He shot his 1011 elephants with a 7x57mm rifle”...

    Bell recorded all of his kills and shots fired. It was a business to him, not pleasure, and he needed to record expenditures…

    • He shot exactly 1,011 elephants with a series of 6 Rigby-made 7x57mm (.275 Rigby) rifles with 173 grain military ammo.
    • He shot 300 elephants with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine using the long 159 grain FMJ bullets.
    • He shot 200 pachyderms with the .303 and the 215 grain army bullet.
    • He went to a .318 Westley Richards for a while, which is a cartridge firing a 250 grain bullet at about 2400 fps, but found the ammunition unreliable and returned to the 7mm.
    • He also recorded that one of the reasons why he favored the 7x57 was that the ammunition was more reliable and he could not recall ever having a fault with it. Whereas British sporting ammunition, apart from the .303 military ammo, gave him endless trouble with splitting cases.( He used the .303 in the hope of running into a Herd of Bulls so he could make use of the 10shots ! He was famed for using a Martini in .303 & holding the spare rounds between his fingers & could fire the rifle as fast as a bolt action !)
    • The balance of his elephants were shot with this .318 and his .450/400 Jeffrey double rifle.
    • He wrote about being able to drop an elephant with a light caliber rifle if he shot it in the same place that he would have shot it with a heavy rifle.
    • It was unmentioned, but understood, that 7x57 ammunition cost a tenth the price of large caliber .450/400 Jeffrey cartridges and money is always a factor in business.
    Just out of interest, it is must to be mention that to judge ammunition expenditure and his own shooting, he calculated an average. He discovered that with the .275 (7x57mm) he fired an average of 1.5 shots per kill. This means that half the time he only needed one shot. That is a fair performance for such a large number of elephants killed and considering that it is common today to fire an insurance shot, anyway. Seemingly a business man of a Hunter with a profit & loss acumen.

    It is also interesting to note that, although Bell is the most famous proponent of using small caliber "nitro" rifles for large game, he did not discover the technique, nor was he its earliest advocate. Well known hunter Arthur Neumann, for example, had been shooting elephants with a .303 Lee Met ford rifle for years before Walter Bell got into the business.

    WDM Bell is forever associated with the John Rigby & Sons Mauser rifle and the .275 Rigby cartridge. ".275 Rigby" was the British designation for the German 7x57mm Mauser cartridge. This cartridge propelled a .284 caliber, 173 grain bullet at around 2300 fps and the bullets he used for elephant brain shots were full metal jacketed solids. He declared once that a soft point bullet had never sullied the bore of his rifle. It is interesting to compare these ballistics with what is commonly regarded as essential performance today.

    Weatherby rifles and cartridges are only as good as the shooter. All clients I have guided in Africa who brought Weatherby rifles could unfortunately not handle them.

    Even if you can, their excessive muzzle velocity, muzzle blast, recoil and if fitted with a muzzle break heaven help the PH and trackers.

    The OP was referring to hunting DG in Africa not Elk in the USA across a canyon! This would be referring to 375 Weatherby, 378 Weatherby, 416 Weatherby and the worst of the lot the 460 Weatherby.

    Now when hunting elephant your shot will be typically 10-35 yards and on buffalo 40-100 yards, so what would you need all this extra muzzle velocity for?

    Reduced penetration, increased recoil, delayed recovery time for the 2nd shot if needed, inability to place the first shot in the right place due to flinching in anticipation of the shot, closing both your eyes before yanking the trigger and then trying to figure out what happened after you have pulled the trigger! No thank you! I would much rather have a client in camp with a rifle he can handle and shoot well.

    If you have as you mentioned seen "I on the other hand have seen some phenomenal shots using the most powerful Weatherbys and RUMs in the states", that is great and I take my hat of to whoever can handle these insane calibers, however I would strongly suggest keeping them in the States, as they have no place in my opinion for hunting DG in Africa, unless you intend shooting your elephant or buffalo at 200 yards plus.

    The only sensible thing to do if you are a Weatherby fan is to download them to a velocity that matches the comparative cartridges that have proven themselves over the years for DG hunting in Africa.
     
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  18. Odinsraven

    Odinsraven AH Fanatic

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    Sorry did not receive your credentials - I would have hoped you would have filled me in on these -as I with Sarcasm which needs to be explained to our American cousins - I was trying to tell you some of the positions I have filled as above



    I have also binned - 3 lodges who condoned long range wounding - as cannot describe it as hunting - shooting perhaps - but as I send 40 ethical hunters to Africa each year .............. as to some one who describes themselves as Hogpatrol - suggests we have an ocean of difference in our ideas -

    I have also binned - several future clients - with their hyper velocity rifles as they could no pass an accuracy test in their country - so I do what I do not a keyboard warrior not a hog hunter - so I find it funny you do not understand the development of small arms bullets - AP etc -and indeed are not well read - but again I would be stereotyping if I quoted such
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017

  19. Paul Homsy

    Paul Homsy AH Veteran

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    IvW,

    Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated,
    A few years ago, I saw a film of elephants culling, all shot with military rifles. Nothing was mentioned about ammunition. I know pertinently that when hunting elephants shots are very shorts and the same may apply for buffalo and that large slow moving projectiles are known performers.

    The fact we're discussing two different sets of circumstances, different geographical locations, games in different continents and at different distances doesn't mean I don't understand or disagree. It is the insistence of not needing the extra distance that baffles me. At times, it is useful to have. Game doesn't crawl between the legs in the mountains and on the last day of a long costly hunt if the only shot that presents itself in difficult terrain is within my capabilities but considered by some to be long, I'll take it. I've done it quite successfully. It isn't however the shot I'll take on the first nor second day or a hunt. I don't plan on doing it in Africa where circumstances are so vastly different.

    I personally use middle of the road cartridges, if you read some of my posts. I often use a 30-06. I am against very long shots for all the reasons you took the trouble to mention. I am already very familiar with them.

    I thank you for the long explanation but can assure you I have been well aware about the advantages and pitfalls you describe for decades. Thank you nevertheless for taking the trouble. It is sincerely appreciated.

    I have done and continue to do a lot of bow hunting. I use a long bow or a recurve with no sights and make my own arrows. My shots are usually under 20 yards. Regardless of the game. I shot a very large black bear at under 10 yards and not from a tree stand, in a state where firearms were not allowed during bow season. I believe in spot and stalk and don't care too much for making up for a lack in those skills by compensating with outlandishly long shots. I don't consider it hunting. However I still maintain that there is a place for the heavy Weatherbys for those who like them and can shoot them. I was never interested in the super mags but I've seen them brought to their potential by those who liked them. I limit myself to standard 300 magnums and 375 H&H improved (my own cartridge, the rifle can still shoot regular H&H rounds) and I'm currently looking at a 416 of some kind or 404 Jeffery to buy.

    Thank you again for your very detailed email.

    Best regards,

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
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  20. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Roger that.
     
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