Thermal Rifle Scope

[TXhunter65]

Had a couple questions regarding thermal scopes:

1. Is it legal to hunt at night in South Africa with a thermal scope?

2. Can a thermal scope be transported as a carry on?

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

Cant answer your first question

But as for second. I wouldn’t try it personally. Just about any thermal we have here in USA is an ITAR device. From what I know and have researched without proper export documents any ITAR device is illegal to take abroad out side USA.

You need to research before you try to take out of country.

 

[BourbonTrail]

As Mark pointed out, Thermal scopes are controlled by ITAR. That said, I know they are sold in RSA, but those go through the export process. Hopefully someone who as attempted an export will chime in.

(Fun Fact: Teaching someone in RSA how to use a thermal scope or having a technical discussion about them is also controlled by ITAR).

From ATN’s website:
EXPORT REGULATIONS Export of night vision equipment and optical sighting equipment is controlled by the U.S. Department of State Office of Defense Trade Controls, in accordance with International Traffic in Arms (ITAR), Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations Part 120—130 and/or the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) U.S. Department of Commerce. It is unlawful to export, or attempt to export or otherwise transfer or sell any hardware or technical data or furnish any service to any foreign person, whether abroad or in the United States, for which a license or written approval of the U.S. Government is required, without first obtaining the required license or written approval from the Department of the U.S. Government having jurisdiction. It is the Resellers/End Users responsibility to request and obtain export licenses for the export of the subject items, and to ensure that the requirements of all applicable laws, regulations and administrative policies are met. Sales or transfers to entities on the List of Debarred Parties, Denied Persons list and Embargoed Countries are strictly prohibited. These lists can be found at the above US Government websites or at the following links Specially Designated Nationals list https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/SDN-List/Pages/default.aspx Debarred list http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/compliance/debar.html Nonproliferation Sanctions http://www.state.gov/t/isn/c15231.htm Embargoed Countries (see part 746) http://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/regulations/export-administration-regulations-ear Export of GEN-3 night vision equipment from the United States without a valid export permit issued by the U.S. Department of State, Office of Defense Trade Controls is strictly prohibited. Generation 4, autogated/filmless technology is not available for export. <a href="https://www.atncorp.com/exportinformation" target="_blank" >EXPORT RESTRICTIONS</a>

 

[Angelo_orygun]

The previous responses are 100%.

It’s a no-no with a thermal scope. Even foreign made thermal is controlled by ITAR once it lands in the US.

I have hand carried 9 Hz handheld thermal units internationally multiple times, but even that involves paperwork and a temporary export.

 

[Still alive]

I bought one for the lodge owner, added to my 4457 form. Was inspected in Germany and given back. Was in my Carry on bag with my other electronics. No problems

 

[renierh]

I know it is a year down the line from the date of this post now, but I hope someone still follows this thread. But I am currently visiting in the US and got a Flir thermal rifle scope from my friend here as I am a PH in Africa and will use it for work. I am heading back to South Africa end of March. How do I get that thermal back home? Also fill in a 4457 just for the thermal?

 

[Sarg]

I think you better get on to that quick bud, my guiding partners younger brothers both from SA all got pulled up on leaving the US & lost all their scopes, NV & thermals, so did a lot of the SA boys returning from Farming work there in the US, I think they were on a list as most SA guys take some thing home ?

 

[renierh]

I think you better get on to that quick bud, my guiding partners younger brothers both from SA all got pulled up on leaving the US & lost all their scopes, NV & thermals, so did a lot of the SA boys returning from Farming work there in the US, I think they were on a list as most SA guys take some thing home ?

So what would you say I should do not to have issues

 

[Sarg]

No I'm saying the opposite, it looks like they the customs guys are expecting returning South Africans to have ITAR items in their luggage & stop them to check ?

I think guys returning from the shows will get check to, if you know any SA guys from the shows who have returned before you WhatsApp them to find out if they were checked or heard of it, you may need to make a plan !!

 

[mdwest]

I know it is a year down the line from the date of this post now, but I hope someone still follows this thread. But I am currently visiting in the US and got a Flir thermal rifle scope from my friend here as I am a PH in Africa and will use it for work. I am heading back to South Africa end of March. How do I get that thermal back home? Also fill in a 4457 just for the thermal?

You first apply for registration with DDTC. That takes weeks and the cost is about $2500… then you apply for an export license… that can take anywhere from a couple of weeks to 3+ months…

Thermals are ITAR regulated… only a licensed exporter can send them to South Africa from the U.S..

Another option is to pay an exporter to handle the transaction for you… that wont be inexpensive either…

The real challenge is going to be justifying the export… when it comes to ITAR “my friend wants one for hunting” isn’t going to fly… you’re going to have to demonstrate a U.S. govt requirement, a business requirement, etc that the US Govt wishes to support… otherwise they will deny the license…

1st or 2nd gen night vision or digital night vision is a whole lot easier… once you step into 3rd gen NV or thermals you are in a whole different world…

Kinda silly when you consider most of the popular thermals like pulsar and AGM are manufactured outside the US… if they never came into the US you wouldn’t have to deal with the US to get them into SA…

But once they are here, all thermals are ITAR controlled

 

[WAB]

You first apply for registration with DDTC. That takes weeks and the cost is about $2500… then you apply for an export license… that can take anywhere from a couple of weeks to 3+ months…

Thermals are ITAR regulated… only a licensed exporter can send them to South Africa from the U.S..

Another option is to pay an exporter to handle the transaction for you… that wont be inexpensive either…

The real challenge is going to be justifying the export… when it comes to ITAR “my friend wants one for hunting” isn’t going to fly… you’re going to have to demonstrate a U.S. govt requirement, a business requirement, etc that the US Govt wishes to support… otherwise they will deny the license…

1st or 2nd gen night vision or digital night vision is a whole lot easier… once you step into 3rd gen NV or thermals you are in a whole different world…

Kinda silly when you consider most of the popular thermals like pulsar and AGM are manufactured outside the US… if they never came into the US you wouldn’t have to deal with the US to get them into SA…

But once they are here, all thermals are ITAR controlled

Is that true of the older thermals? I thought I recalled a thread that indicated that some of the earlier gen stuff was now non-ITAR?

One thing to remember, this is a public forum. You absolutely should not break federal law. However, if you are so inclined, I would probably advise against discussing it publicly.

 

[Red Leg]

Anyone taking one out of country, whether on a 4457 or not, is playing Russian roulette. Particularly if actually "exporting" it to a third party. You could get caught the first time or do it half a dozen times with no issue. But someone will eventually notice. They may yet. The 4457 creates a lasting "paper trail" where a simple search can pull up key words like Pulsar or ATN. It is a felony with up to a million dollar fine and potential jail time. Moreover, devices like that are getting a lot of heightened attention these days because of the Ukraine War and sanctions on Russia.

 

[mdwest]

Moreover, devices like that are getting a lot of heightened attention these days because of the Ukraine War and sanctions on Russia.

Yes. They absolutely are. A former US Service Member is learning the hard way as I type this response…

Former U.S. Serviceman Pleads Guilty to Exporting Defense Items Such as Night Vision Goggles to Russia in Violation of Federal Law

A former member of the United States military pleaded guilty today to conspiring to unlawfully export to Russia defense articles – including thermal imaging riflescopes and night vision goggles – without a license in violation of the Arms Export Control Act.

www.justice.gov

 

[mdwest]

Is that true of the older thermals? I thought I recalled a thread that indicated that some of the earlier gen stuff was now non-ITAR?

One thing to remember, this is a public forum. You absolutely should not break federal law. However, if you are so inclined, I would probably advise against discussing it publicly.

Early gen night vision has been taken off the USML… but not thermals to my knowledge (when I get back to the office/laptop I’ll check the most recent USML and any updates that might address thermals)…

 

[mdwest]

Is that true of the older thermals? I thought I recalled a thread that indicated that some of the earlier gen stuff was now non-ITAR?

One thing to remember, this is a public forum. You absolutely should not break federal law. However, if you are so inclined, I would probably advise against discussing it publicly.

Just dug into the regs a little bit...

the answer is YES.. SOME thermal devices can now be exported without a license to a limited number of countries..

As I read things.. if there is a camera (most scopes and handhelds have a photo/video option) the frame rate cannot exceed 9 frames per second.. and you are limited to 30/60 hz (uncooled) and 384x288 pixel resolution.. and then you can still only export without a license to STA 1 countries (see list below). If you arent traveling to a STA 1 country, then you cant export without a license (all prior info applies.. get registered with DDTC, apply for a license, etc..etc..)...

My biggest concern would be similar to the recent discussion in the suppressor thread..

Can it be done? the answer is a "maybe"... depends on where youre going, what specific device you are taking, etc..

So.. the real question becomes.. do you trust that the TSA/Customs/Whoever thinks they are in charge at the moment person actually knows the difference in a 384 vs 640 class thermal? Knows what countries are legal to go to and which ones arent? etc..etc..

If I were trying to take a 384 class handheld to somewhere like Ireland, I'd just make sure I have copies of all of the regs in hand, copies of anything you could find on Irish law on hand, schematics/manufacturers info specific to my device that shows it within the standards addressed in the regulations, etc..etc.. and go on about my business.. and would probably make sure I got to the airport at least an hour earlier than originally planned so I have ample time to deal with whatever knucklehead decides to try to make my day more difficult than it should be..

 

[Hunter4752001]

Pulsar are a Lithuanian brand and reportedly one of the best manufacturers of civilian thermals. They have a distributor in South Africa (Ultranexus?). For our SA friends, wouldn't it be a safer option to buy from them than taking your chances with US export laws? Legal fees, fines, jail time, prohibitions on re-entry to US etc would all be more costly than any potential pricing differential.

For our US friends who want to take one with them, probably best to get advice direct from the Gov't Agency which regulates these items, and keep multiple hard copies of the advice, permits etc with you when travelling.

 

[mdwest]

You haven’t dealt with the UG Govt before I’m guessing..

They are notorious for not communicating from agency to agency and for different agencies having different rules about the same thing…

Advice won’t keep you from being guilty or fined.. even decisions made by govt agencies change and they then will hold you criminally liable for adhering to their prior advice after they have changed their opinion on you (google ATF pistol brace for something recent on this)…

The only thing that matters is cold hard facts and the actual law/regulation in its most current form..

Even trying to be law abiding can get you in trouble if/when they change the rules on you… in the US “ignorance” of law is not an allowable defense..

The biggest challenge (see the recent suppressor thread for more info) is the US has been “reforming” export law for the last decade… and is still trying to reform even more… every year the laws change… what was legal last year may not be legal this year… and what was illegal last year may be legal this year…

 

[wvfred]

I asked customs about this at my regional airport for a hunt in Zim in 2019 and got a resounding NO!