The .358 Norma

[sestoppelman]

A statement well made, Bob! I haven't tested it myself, but Nathan Foster of Terminal Ballistics has, and according to him the 358 Norma Magnum can do around 2600 ft/sec with the 310 grain Woodleigh.

thats 4654 ft/lbs of energy. That would be a good load in the .375 Hollands!

 

[Capebuffalo]

Pretty sure you meant 2700 fps for the Ruger, not 3700 fps.

Yes, Sestoppelman, you are correct, I made a typing error, it should be the 2700 fps as you said. Thanks for picking it up.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I agree with you, Bob. Barrel twist rates become more and more important, type of bullet/ammo, and type of gun powder keep on improving,.... and it all develops towards better performance! So we can expect that cartridges that were looked down upon in the past can become more relevant again and cartridges whose performances were denied will get the necessary recognition. Just my take on it.

@Capebuffalo
When I ordered the barrel for my Whelen I specified 1 in 12 twist, glad I did. The only thing is we can no longer get CFE223 in Australia as they are not importing it or superformance or any Winchester powders.
Glad I stocked up on CFE223 and go 20 pounds of it but could only get 5 pound of superformance. That should do me a few years.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Pretty sure you meant 2700 fps for the Ruger, not 3700 fps.

@sestoppelman
@3,700fps she would have some awesome energy and recoil would be fearsome. The would well and truly put it in the ouch category of recoil.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[Capebuffalo]

@sestoppelman
@3,700fps she would have some awesome energy and recoil would be fearsome. The would well and truly put it in the ouch category of recoil.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

Yeh, seems the Ruger 375 is an extremely powerful cartridge...with the 358 Norma not far behind!

 

[Capebuffalo]

thats 4654 ft/lbs of energy. That would be a good load in the .375 Hollands!

That comes down to 6,310 Joules then, way over the required minimum of 5,400 Joules in some African countries for dangerous game....

 

[Capebuffalo]

@Capebuffalo
When I ordered the barrel for my Whelen I specified 1 in 12 twist, glad I did. The only thing is we can no longer get CFE223 in Australia as they are not importing it or superformance or any Winchester powders.
Glad I stocked up on CFE223 and go 20 pounds of it but could only get 5 pound of superformance. That should do me a few years.
Bob

Yeh, a 1:12 twist is the way to go for all .35 calibers if you want to shoot the heavy for caliber bullets.
Seems your stocking up idea paid off for you, Bob! I think everything will be back to normal again by the end of the year, regarding ammo.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Yeh, a 1:12 twist is the way to go for all .35 calibers if you want to shoot the heavy for caliber bullets.
Seems your stocking up idea paid off for you, Bob! I think everything will be back to normal again by the end of the year, regarding ammo.

@Capebuffalo
We live in hope but if not I also have 5,000 of each large and small rifle primers, just have to stock up on projectiles for my beloved 25.

 

[Rosch]

The .358 Norma is something like a thick goldchain around Your neck, its nice to have, but You really don't need it. The .358 is the same, too close to the .338 Winni and not too far away from .375 H&H.

To test it the ultimative way, built three guns, all the same with 338, 358 and 375H&H barrels fit and try to sell it:
Be prepared, because many will have the 375, lots want to have the 338, but nobody is even asking for the 358 Norma, because nobody knows it. If You look deaper, brass is problem, bullets are problem (because lots of are mainly made for 358 Win & 35 Whelen and so in my opinion too soft) and original ammo from Norma is far too expensive for a nice afternoon at the shooting range.
If I'm considering a new cartridge for my locker, those named circumstances just chase it out of competition. If You want to invest Your time and money, to shoot an exotic cartridge like that, so buy it, hug it, write us Your huntingstories and be happy.!!

 

[cash_tx]

I was at a gun show north of Dallas, Texas just yesterday, and there were two tables where the seller had laid out a large variety of vintage ammo. Among the inventory was some 358 Norma in the original boxes; two boxes on one table, and three boxes on another. I don't own a 358 Norma, so only paid them casual attention, but I think they were priced around $80 per box of 20.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The .358 Norma is something like a thick goldchain around Your neck, its nice to have, but You really don't need it. The .358 is the same, too close to the .338 Winni and not too far away from .375 H&H.

To test it the ultimative way, built three guns, all the same with 338, 358 and 375H&H barrels fit and try to sell it:
Be prepared, because many will have the 375, lots want to have the 338, but nobody is even asking for the 358 Norma, because nobody knows it. If You look deaper, brass is problem, bullets are problem (because lots of are mainly made for 358 Win & 35 Whelen and so in my opinion too soft) and original ammo from Norma is far too expensive for a nice afternoon at the shooting range.
If I'm considering a new cartridge for my locker, those named circumstances just chase it out of competition. If You want to invest Your time and money, to shoot an exotic cartridge like that, so buy it, hug it, write us Your huntingstories and be happy.!!

@Rosch
Even though Woodleigh have velocity parameters marked on their box for the projectiles you can start Woodleigh projectiles faster than recommended velocity.
My whelen is loaded 300fps over recommended max velocity. On talking to Geoff McDonald they are impact velocity. I shot my zebra at still 100 fps over max recommended impact velocity and it still performed as it was designed to do. Game isn't usually shot at the muzzle. As long as you keep impact velocity in mind the projectiles should be fine.
Bob

 

[steve white]

@Rosch
Even though Woodleigh have velocity parameters marked on their box for the projectiles you can start Woodleigh projectiles faster than recommended velocity.
My whelen is loaded 300fps over recommended max velocity. On talking to Geoff McDonald they are impact velocity. I shot my zebra at still 100 fps over max recommended impact velocity and it still performed as it was designed to do. Game isn't usually shot at the muzzle. As long as you keep impact velocity in mind the projectiles should be fine.
Bob

How do you get such high velocity in the whelen with the 250-310 grain bullets? I can only reach into the 2400's fps with 220 gr 30'06

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

How do you get such high velocity in the whelen with the 250-310 grain bullets? I can only reach into the 2400's fps with 220 gr 30'06

@ steve white
I use the load off the speer loading guide for the 250gr using CFE223 and a 25 inch barrel.
With the 310gn Woodleigh the load of 59gn of H4350 gives 2,200 plus fps, that is a compressed load and low pressure.
I use an 18 inch drop tube and can get 63gn of H4350 in the case and only have a slightly compressed load and still low pressure. This gave 2,455 fps and a healthy dose of recoil. I settled on 62gn for 2,340 fps as my working load. Still more than enough power from a Whelen.
The usual caveats apply to loading start low and work up. These loads were safe in my rifle only.
Bob

 

[Rosch]

Hell no .....310 Grain out of a .35 Whelen?? Is the Whelen meant for something like that, shoving POPEYE into Your gun ?

In my opinion (and You know I like easy), much well-thought-out would be in this weight class .375 (H&H or RUGER) and You can do 300 Grain all day long never being worried if You're really in the limits of this cartridges?!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hell no .....310 Grain out of a .35 Whelen?? Is the Whelen meant for something like that, shoving POPEYE into Your gun ?

View attachment 484613
In my opinion (and You know I like easy), much well-thought-out would be in this weight class .375 (H&H or RUGER) and You can do 300 Grain all day long never being worried if You're really in the limits of this cartridges?!

@Rosch
Where's the fun in that. It's not pushing the limits of the Whelen its just making the Whelen what it can and should be. A very potent cartridge in a non magnum case. A 310gn 35 cal has a higher sd than a 300gn 375 so should penetrate deeply and hit hard on big game at reasonable ranges
Bob

 

[Rosch]

Oh…its just about fun ? Then I haven‘t said anything.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Oh…its just about fun ? Then I haven‘t said anything.

@Rosch
Hunting with a 35 cal factory or handload is as much fun as I can handle with my clothes on.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[Capebuffalo]

The .358 Norma is something like a thick goldchain around Your neck, its nice to have, but You really don't need it. The .358 is the same, too close to the .338 Winni and not too far away from .375 H&H.

To test it the ultimative way, built three guns, all the same with 338, 358 and 375H&H barrels fit and try to sell it:
Be prepared, because many will have the 375, lots want to have the 338, but nobody is even asking for the 358 Norma, because nobody knows it. If You look deaper, brass is problem, bullets are problem (because lots of are mainly made for 358 Win & 35 Whelen and so in my opinion too soft) and original ammo from Norma is far too expensive for a nice afternoon at the shooting range.
If I'm considering a new cartridge for my locker, those named circumstances just chase it out of competition. If You want to invest Your time and money, to shoot an exotic cartridge like that, so buy it, hug it, write us Your huntingstories and be happy.!!

Rosch,

I agree with most you have said. However, we all kiss our wives differently, same with rifles. Although I like the 338 WM as a one do it all rifle, I appreciate the performance of a gun such as the 358 Norma Mag. I also have a great appreciation for the performance of the 375 Ruger too, but I think for now I want to push the limits to shoot as many dangerous animals as I can afford with my 338 WM and 358 NM (in the process) by using hard bullets such as Swift and Woodleighs in 275-310 grains. Maybe then after a while, I would rather jump to a 416 to play it safe and skip the 375s.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Rosch,

I agree with most you have said. However, we all kiss our wives differently, same with rifles. Although I like the 338 WM as a one do it all rifle, I appreciate the performance of a gun such as the 358 Norma Mag. I also have a great appreciation for the performance of the 375 Ruger too, but I think for now I want to push the limits to shoot as many dangerous animals as I can afford with my 338 WM and 358 NM (in the process) by using hard bullets such as Swift and Woodleighs in 275-310 grains. Maybe then after a while, I would rather jump to a 416 to play it safe and skip the 375s.

@Capebuffalo
@Rosch said people haven't herd of the 358 Norma, those that have are very reluctant to get rid of them they are just that good. Brass maybe a bit hard to find but easily made from 7mm mag or 338WM. You can even make it from 458WM. The heavy Swift AFs and the Woodleigh 275s and 310s should acquit themselves well in the 358 Norma.
Bob

 

[Capebuffalo]

@Capebuffalo
@Rosch said people haven't herd of the 358 Norma, those that have are very reluctant to get rid of them they are just that good. Brass maybe a bit hard to find but easily made from 7mm mag or 338WM. You can even make it from 458WM. The heavy Swift AFs and the Woodleigh 275s and 310s should acquit themselves well in the 358 Norma.
Bob

Exactly! I place the 358 NM and the 9.3x64 almost equal to the 375 h&h in performance, with the 375 Ruger a nose length ahead of them....with the 338WM nipping at the heels of them all....and Bob's 35 Whelen nipping at the heels of the 338 WM. However, the 358 NM, the 9.3x64, and the 338WM will shoot flatter and penetrate deeper, whereas the 375s have a tad more diameter.....and Bob's 35 Whelen beat them all in the recoil department! Boy oh boy, I love these mid-bores!