Solid before soft point

[Miletic]

A quartering away shot from the left rear will have a lot of rumen to pass through if it’s a little bit back from ideal. There is usually a bunch in a big ol bull.

Yes, I understand. And a frontal hit in the chest? That one has to shoot him on the spot?

 

[Miletic]

To be clear, what do you call a soft and a solid? You’re saying a lot that is against convention.
A soft is an expanding bullet both lead core and monolithic.
A solid is a non-expanding bullet both FMJ lead core and monolithic.

When I say soft, I mean expansive. When I say hard, I mean solid.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Keep it simple, just shoot almost everything with a Swift A Frame.

Both are 400 gr Swift A-Frames, shot from my 404 Jeffery. The 84.0 grs of H-4350 push them to 2300 FPS. The buffalo was right at 100 yards. The bullet on the left was a straight on shot with the buffalo looking straight at me. I pulled it a little to the left and the bullet entered more of the front right shoulder. That bullet weighed 331 grs or 82.75% weight retention. The bullet on the right was a broadside shot that double lung him and was found on the opposite side, just under the skin. That bullet weighed 345 grs or 86.25% weight retention.

 

[Flipper Dude]

From what I hear, there are more buffalo wounded from frontal shots than any other. Just a slight pull one way or the other and you got a bull with a bullet in one lung that passed behind the shoulder. That said, I’ve shot two that way, but was steady and close and no chance of brush. For me, close is the key. I’m a lot more accurate at 25 yards than I am at 100. Don’t overthink the bullet. Stack some TSX or Swift A frames and go hunt.

 

[Longwalker]

Hunters from the USA tend to answer by suggesting the bullet choices available to them. To answer your question about RWS 9.3x74R ammunition, I expect the EVO bullet would be more appropriate than the UNI classic for hunting very large game like buffalo. I've only shot a few animals with each, but my limited experience the bonded core EVO bullet holds together and penetrates very well. I have not been able to examine one after killing an animal, they exit. The Uni Classic bullet will fragment after hitting bone and stop in animals the size of elk or moose.

 

[Miletic]

This is a hard

 

[Miletic]

Expansiv i think this

Or this

 

[375Fox]

When I say soft, I mean expansive. When I say hard, I mean solid.

I think this podcast with Kevin Robertson would really help you.

 

[Flipper Dude]

This is a hardView attachment 751984

Nah. This is a hard.

 

[Miletic]

Hunters from the USA tend to answer by suggesting the bullet choices available to them. To answer your question about RWS 9.3x74R ammunition, I expect the EVO bullet would be more appropriate than the UNI classic for hunting very large game like buffalo. I've only shot a few animals with each, but my limited experience the bonded core EVO bullet holds together and penetrates very well. I have not been able to examine one after killing an animal, they exit. The Uni Classic bullet will fragment after hitting bone and stop in animals the size of elk or moose.

Yes, I know how they behave on European large animals. I was interested in how they penetrate in Africa.
Thanks

 

[Miletic]

Nah. This is a solid. View attachment 751987

You mean “blady solid”?
Where you find him?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

When I first began hunting in Africa in 1974… the standard practice was to load a soft point for the first shot and solids for the follow up shot. In a magazine rifle, it was soft point in the chamber and solids in the magazine. In a double rifle, it was soft point in the first barrel & solid in the second barrel.

The logic was that (as a client hunter) your first shot would invariably be made from a perfectly broadside position (which your white hunter would get you to) and from this angle… the soft points of those days (for example: the RWS Kegelspitze Cone Point) could be reliably expected to penetrate into the heart-lung region behind the shoulder (provided that you avoided the heavy shoulder bone/humerus/scapula). After the first shot, the Cape buffalo would be either departing (i.e offering only quartering away or going away shots) or (relatively less commonly) charging (i.e offering only frontal shots). At these angles, the soft points of those days seldom could be reliably expected to penetrate deep enough into the vital organs. Hence, we had to rely exclusively upon the solid for follow up shots.

My initial set up (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum magazine rifles) was one RWS 300Gr Kegelspitze Cone Point followed by RWS 300Gr nickel jacketed round nosed FMJ solids (and later, Remington 300Gr Hornady round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids starting from 1982) in the rest of the magazine.

Aside from the fact that soft points generated larger wound cavities in the vital organs of Cape buffalo on body shots to the heart-lung region (which accelerated blood loss and led to the game hemorrhaging faster from blood loss), they possessed one more advantage. They did not over penetrate. You see, the vast majority of African Cape buffalo are hunted in herds. And using solid bullets always runs the risk of accidentally wounding another animal after your bullet passes completely through your intended target animal. During my first Safari to Kenya in 1974, I had (in fact) accidentally wounded a Cape buffalo cow (which I didn’t even notice) when my bullet (an RWS 300Gr round nosed nickel jacketed FMJ solid) had passed through my targeted bull. Back in those days, you could barely get away with this sort of thing. I hesitate to think of the legal repercussions if a client made such a mistake on a Safari today.

In the mid 1980s, the concept of the controlled expansion bullet was first developed. Swift came out with the A Frame in 1984. Jack Carter developed the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in 1985. Barnes came out with the X in 1989. I was first introduced to the Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 300Gr factory load in 1993. And after just one Safari, I resolved to never employ solid bullets on Cape buffalo anymore. Here, we had a bullet which could cleanly penetrate a Cape buffalo from ANY angle while generating a desirably large wound cavity without any risk of passing completely through the target animal & accidentally wounding another head of game.

Even though (post 1993) I mostly used the Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, I used other types of controlled expansion bullets over the years on Cape buffalo as well. The Barnes TSX and Rhino Solid Shank in particular, are stoutly constructed enough to even reach a Cape buffalo’s vital organs with shots taken at acute angles. They can even reach the brain with a shot taken under the Cape buffalo’s boss. Hence, I completely abandoned the solid for my Cape buffalo hunting purposes.

I hope that this provides some useful insight to your question.

On a related subject: In my field experience, a non expanding bullet under .450 caliber can’t be expected to reliably kill a Cape buffalo with a heart-lung shot all too quickly anyway.

 

[Miletic]

I think this podcast with Kevin Robertson would really help you.

I have to look carefully

 

[Miletic]

When I first began hunting in Africa in 1974… the standard practice was to load a soft point for the first shot and solids for the follow up shot. In a magazine rifle, it was soft point in the chamber and solids in the magazine. In a double rifle, it was soft point in the first barrel & solid in the second barrel.

The logic was that (as a client hunter) your first shot would invariably be made from a perfectly broadside position (which your white hunter would get you to) and from this angle… the soft points of those days (for example: the RWS Kegelspitze Cone Point) could be reliably expected to penetrate into the heart-lung region behind the shoulder (provided that you avoided the heavy shoulder bone/humerus/scapula). After the first shot, the Cape buffalo would be either departing (i.e offering only quartering away or going away shots) or (relatively less commonly) charging (i.e offering only frontal shots). At these angles, the soft points of those days seldom could be reliably expected to penetrate deep enough into the vital organs. Hence, we had to rely exclusively upon the solid for follow up shots.

My initial set up (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum magazine rifles) was one RWS 300Gr Kegelspitze Cone Point followed by RWS 300Gr nickel jacketed round nosed FMJ solids (and later, Remington 300Gr Hornady round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids starting from 1982) in the rest of the magazine.
View attachment 751988View attachment 751989View attachment 751990View attachment 751991
Aside from the fact that soft points generated larger wound cavities in the vital organs of Cape buffalo on body shots to the heart-lung region (which accelerated blood loss and led to the game hemorrhaging faster from blood loss), they possessed one more advantage. They did not over penetrate. You see, the vast majority of African Cape buffalo are hunted in herds. And using solid bullets always runs the risk of accidentally wounding another animal after your bullet passes completely through your intended target animal. During my first Safari to Kenya in 1974, I had (in fact) accidentally wounded a Cape buffalo cow (which I didn’t even notice) when my bullet (an RWS 300Gr round nosed nickel jacketed FMJ solid) had passed through my targeted bull. Back in those days, you could barely get away with this sort of thing. I hesitate to think of the legal repercussions if a client made such a mistake on a Safari today.

In the mid 1980s, the concept of the controlled expansion bullet was first developed. Swift came out with the A Frame in 1984. Jack Carter developed the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in 1985. Barnes came out with the X in 1989. I was first introduced to the Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 300Gr factory load in 1993. And after just one Safari, I resolved to never employ solid bullets on Cape buffalo anymore. Here, we had a bullet which could cleanly penetrate a Cape buffalo from ANY angle while generating a desirably large wound cavity without any risk of passing completely through the target animal & accidentally wounding another head of game.
View attachment 751993View attachment 751994View attachment 751995View attachment 751996View attachment 751997
Even though (post 1993) I mostly used the Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, I used other types of controlled expansion bullets over the years on Cape buffalo as well. The Barnes TSX and Rhino Solid Shank in particular, are stoutly constructed enough to even reach a Cape buffalo’s vital organs with shots taken at acute angles. They can even reach the brain with a shot taken under the Cape buffalo’s boss. Hence, I completely abandoned the solid for my Cape buffalo hunting purposes.

I hope that this provides some useful insight to your question.

On a related subject: In my field experience, a non expanding bullet under .450 caliber can’t be expected to reliably kill a Cape buffalo with a heart-lung shot all too quickly anyway.

Thank you Mr. Hunter Habib. So, it is still smarter to use expanding bullets in cal 416 for buffalo?

 

[Miletic]

When I first began hunting in Africa in 1974… the standard practice was to load a soft point for the first shot and solids for the follow up shot. In a magazine rifle, it was soft point in the chamber and solids in the magazine. In a double rifle, it was soft point in the first barrel & solid in the second barrel.

The logic was that (as a client hunter) your first shot would invariably be made from a perfectly broadside position (which your white hunter would get you to) and from this angle… the soft points of those days (for example: the RWS Kegelspitze Cone Point) could be reliably expected to penetrate into the heart-lung region behind the shoulder (provided that you avoided the heavy shoulder bone/humerus/scapula). After the first shot, the Cape buffalo would be either departing (i.e offering only quartering away or going away shots) or (relatively less commonly) charging (i.e offering only frontal shots). At these angles, the soft points of those days seldom could be reliably expected to penetrate deep enough into the vital organs. Hence, we had to rely exclusively upon the solid for follow up shots.

My initial set up (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum magazine rifles) was one RWS 300Gr Kegelspitze Cone Point followed by RWS 300Gr nickel jacketed round nosed FMJ solids (and later, Remington 300Gr Hornady round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids starting from 1982) in the rest of the magazine.
View attachment 751988View attachment 751989View attachment 751990View attachment 751991
View attachment 751992Aside from the fact that soft points generated larger wound cavities in the vital organs of Cape buffalo on body shots to the heart-lung region (which accelerated blood loss and led to the game hemorrhaging faster from blood loss), they possessed one more advantage. They did not over penetrate. You see, the vast majority of African Cape buffalo are hunted in herds. And using solid bullets always runs the risk of accidentally wounding another animal after your bullet passes completely through your intended target animal. During my first Safari to Kenya in 1974, I had (in fact) accidentally wounded a Cape buffalo cow (which I didn’t even notice) when my bullet (an RWS 300Gr round nosed nickel jacketed FMJ solid) had passed through my targeted bull. Back in those days, you could barely get away with this sort of thing. I hesitate to think of the legal repercussions if a client made such a mistake on a Safari today.

In the mid 1980s, the concept of the controlled expansion bullet was first developed. Swift came out with the A Frame in 1984. Jack Carter developed the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in 1985. Barnes came out with the X in 1989. I was first introduced to the Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 300Gr factory load in 1993. And after just one Safari, I resolved to never employ solid bullets on Cape buffalo anymore. Here, we had a bullet which could cleanly penetrate a Cape buffalo from ANY angle while generating a desirably large wound cavity without any risk of passing completely through the target animal & accidentally wounding another head of game.
View attachment 751993View attachment 751994View attachment 751995View attachment 751996View attachment 751997
Even though (post 1993) I mostly used the Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, I used other types of controlled expansion bullets over the years on Cape buffalo as well. The Barnes TSX and Rhino Solid Shank in particular, are stoutly constructed enough to even reach a Cape buffalo’s vital organs with shots taken at acute angles. They can even reach the brain with a shot taken under the Cape buffalo’s boss. Hence, I completely abandoned the solid for my Cape buffalo hunting purposes.

I hope that this provides some useful insight to your question.

On a related subject: In my field experience, a non expanding bullet under .450 caliber can’t be expected to reliably kill a Cape buffalo with a heart-lung shot all too quickly anyway.

The pictures are amazing.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Thank you Mr. Hunter Habib. So, it is still smarter to use expanding bullets in cal 416 for buffalo?

Oh, yes, Definitely. Solids these days are only for elephant, body shots on hippopotamus and perhaps rhinoceros (although I tragically have no rhinoceros to my credit at this time of writing).

 

[318AE]

As others have pointed out, the advice in this matter had changed over time, as bullet construction has improved (the really, really old timers would often say solids only for buffalo, back when the available cup and core bullets were exceedingly fragile and unreliable and basically crap).

The factor not yet discussed much is the hunting environment or scenario. If I hunt buffalo in the Mozambique delta again, it will be softs only. The bulls there are often taken from herds, and they generally don’t have thick brush to run into. They often spin around once hit, with others moving around them. Just a real lousy place for a solid in my experience.
Hunting a lone bull, or a bull in a very small dugga boy group, that is likely to run quickly into thick cover, I often prefer a solid for the follow up, given its likely to be a hasty shot at a poor, quartering away, angle.

For these reasons, ask your PH. He will know what works best for the area and situation you are hunting in.

 

[Miletic]

As others have pointed out, the advice in this matter had changed over time, as bullet construction has improved (the really, really old timers would often say solids only for buffalo, back when the available cup and core bullets were exceedingly fragile and unreliable and basically crap).

The factor not yet discussed much is the hunting environment or scenario. If I hunt buffalo in the Mozambique delta again, it will be softs only. The bulls there are often taken from herds, and they generally don’t have thick brush to run into. They often spin around once hit, with others moving around them. Just a real lousy place for a solid in my experience.
Hunting a lone bull, or a bull in a very small dugga boy group, that is likely to run quickly into thick cover, I often prefer a solid for the follow up, given its likely to be a hasty shot at a poor, quartering away, angle.

For these reasons, ask your PH. He will know what works best for the area and situation you are hunting in.

Yes, I got it. I'm going to start thinking that way. Thank you

 

[Miletic]

Oh, yes, Definitely. Solids these days are only for elephant, body shots on hippopotamus and perhaps rhinoceros (although I tragically have no rhinoceros to my credit at this time of writing).

You said that you are going to get a rhinoceros soon, so now we are expecting a picture and a complete story

 

[Safari Dave]

My PH wanted me to load my rifle so that I shot in this order for buffalo:

1. Expanding
2. Solid
3. Expanding
4. Solid
5. Solid