Rhino, Elephant, and Lion in one hunt

[IvW]

I hunted buffalo in Mkuze Falls PGR, which is in KZN in 2010, a very large property where I saw personally the seven dangerous animals, totally self sustainable.
I´m sure @IvW knows it and remembers the size of it.

I hunted Pongola Game Reserve, also in KZN, in 2017, 31.000 ha or 76.600 acres, the 7 dangerous, except lion are there.

And there are many other very large properties in RSA that offer "real" hunts, you just have to do your homework and stop believing that all hunting there is canned and in small properties.

Fenced, yes, they have to protect the animals from poachers, and the properties from settlers, but do keep in mind that over half of the animals in SA can go over, under, or through any fence.

@Nyati I certainly know both and have also hunted both..including a number of others in the area ..

 

[Shakka]

I hunted buffalo in Mkuze Falls PGR, which is in KZN in 2010, a very large property where I saw personally the seven dangerous animals, totally self sustainable.
I´m sure @IvW knows it and remembers the size of it.

I hunted Pongola Game Reserve, also in KZN, in 2017, 31.000 ha or 76.600 acres, the 7 dangerous, except lion are there.

And there are many other very large properties in RSA that offer "real" hunts, you just have to do your homework and stop believing that all hunting there is canned and in small properties.

Fenced, yes, they have to protect the animals from poachers, and the properties from settlers, but do keep in mind that over half of the animals in SA can go over, under, or through any fence.

Totally agree. As I said before, I don’t think that anyone would turn down the chance to hunt DG in Zimbabwe’s BVC and it is also fenced off. 1 million acres but there is still a fence around it

 

[375Fox]

I have always been straight forward rather than beating about the bush. I am passionate about my country, hunting, conservation and guiding people on foot safaris. I get upset when people make statements that are incorrect and not applicable to what is being stated. Some people generalize about some things yet they are ignorent and persist with generalizing and imply that because of all are. For example, yes you can hunt a cbl lion on a much smaller property but then they generalize and make unsubstantiated posts implying that all lion hunting is put and take or CBL that is far from the truth. Same with buffalo hunting...posting pictures of a buffalo cow with a tag and then making stupid comments...implying that all buffalo hunting here is captive bred and you can basically pre book one and get a progress report on its growth....well..... Now if that upsets somebody it was not directed at I apologise to them, but at least some people should do there homework and not generalize if they do not know what they are talking about.

By all means, if anybody is apposed to DG hunting in SA by all means hunt where you prefer but do not make unsubstantiated belittling statements about DG hunting in SA.....

If my comments offended you I apologise to you, if anybody prefer they can report them to admin for removal and they can repremand me or even remove me.

I felt the photo of the buffalo with an ear tag and comment about pre-booking and its implication was in poor taste. However, I wouldn’t have become involved in this thread had I not see a post implying certain practices were a thing of the past done only by a few bad operators at that time. Those practices are certainly still occurring (to varying extents) in addition to well managed wild areas. What bothers me is the difficulty identifying outfitters being honest and those who are not. I wish it was easier to identify how dangerous game areas (primarily buffalo) are managed to create some confidence possibly such as a certification from hunting organization, but I never see that happening. How would you suggest best identifying properly managed wild areas vs areas that are only claiming to be?

 

[375Fox]

The thread has , expectedly , turned into a canned hunting thread with people pointing fingers out of high moral positions. The question is simply ... Do you think this only happens in South Africa ? If you do , then you are very very uninformed and /or naïve.

Regardless of what happens in other countries, South Africa has the reputation for questionable practices due to intensive game ranching and CBL lion shooting. My question to you what hunting/outfitter practices have changed over years to change this reputation and give confidence to someone that they are actually booking a hunt in a properly managed self sustaining area? I find it very difficult to distinguish between those being honest and those trying to market their hunts in a better light in South Africa.

 

[Shakka]

Regardless of what happens in other countries, South Africa has the reputation for questionable practices due to intensive game ranching and CBL lion shooting. My question to you what hunting/outfitter practices have changed over years to change this reputation and give confidence to someone that they are actually booking a hunt in a properly managed self sustaining area? I find it very difficult to distinguish between those being honest and those trying to market their hunts in a better light in South Africa.

Great point and question

 

[Nyati]

I have also witnessed some "questionable" practices in SA, but, to be fair, the hunters asked for it.

Yes, let´s face it, some people are just interested in taking home a nice trophy, and don´t specially want to work hard for it. And the Outfitter, who is a businessman, agrees and fulfills his client´s wishes. I even witnessed a "hunter" asking the PH to be allowed to shoot a buff from the Bakkie, the PH, a very good professional, refused.

Now how to distinguish the honest from the others ?
As far as I know, there is a way, following the recommendations of someone that you trust and has the necessary experience.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Admittedly, i've seen a few insane pricing guestimates above, but for lion and rhino you'll be hitting 2 different places in SA (likely NW and Limpopo,) then either heading over toward Kruger (NE) in SA for elephant OR drive over the border to SE Zim, experience the country there and get a tuskless (cheap), PAC (not bad-some with nice tusks), or trophy. You can set up and choreograph all 3 yourself or contact RSA/Zim booking agent Carl Knight. 'Could squeeze it all in in 2 weeks but 3 is recommended. My guestimate is that you can do the above (sans the trophy ele) for $20K (de-horned rhino-it actually has a horn growing back), $15K PAC elephant, and $15K NICE lion. Each is rounded up a tad, so $50Kish should do the trick. You'll be traveling more and tipping more people but that pales in comparison to the daily rates and trophy fee tallies. You likely won't be bringing the lion or ele back, but oddly the (lesser number) rhino is allowed...

 

[C.W. Richter]

There are fantastic prices on big non-trophy elephant in Namib, but you won't be collecting the lion or rhino there (for a variety of logical reasons lol RSA will be your friend in this regard. 1 flight, see the country driving between concessions! I have driven from SA to Zim with no problems. A very scenic, manageable trip! 2.5 hr wait at 1 border crossing, but the scenic trip was totally worth the wait (and we routinely do that and more at mundane airports!)

 

[C.W. Richter]

IF budget is no issue and you want nice trophies and the best African experience, do the elephant in Botswana or Zim, the lion in Zim (many a skinning areas are overrun with them!) and the (white) rhino in RSA. All countries adjoin/not too far away. The deal on wild managed lions in the NW or Limpopo on here are very appealing too...Good Luck. Oh, and worry much more about mamba/cobra/adder antidotes than chinavirus 21!

 

[375Fox]

I have also witnessed some "questionable" practices in SA, but, to be fair, the hunters asked for it.

Yes, let´s face it, some people are just interested in taking home a nice trophy, and don´t specially want to work hard for it. And the Outfitter, who is a businessman, agrees and fulfills his client´s wishes. I even witnessed a "hunter" asking the PH to be allowed to shoot a buff from the Bakkie, the PH, a very good professional, refused.

Now how to distinguish the honest from the others ?
As far as I know, there is a way, following the recommendations of someone that you trust and has the necessary experience.

Very true point. There are many people who don’t draw a distinction and if that’s the case that is fine, I guess. However, it really bothers me seeing buffalo hunts advertised as self sustaining when they are clearly not and downplaying the existence of put and take hunting. There is a huge buffalo farming industry there where the only end market for bulls is hunting. Their silence on my questions and the lack of responses from most outfitters to a thread I started about wild hunting in South Africa earlier this year, tells me a lot and confirms what I already thought. As I said in my first post, it’s unfortunate for the outfitters who do things properly and hunt properly managed, close to wild areas to have to prove they have real wild hunting.

 

[postoak]

Admittedly, i've seen a few insane pricing guestimates above, but for lion and rhino you'll be hitting 2 different places in SA (likely NW and Limpopo,) then either heading over toward Kruger (NE) in SA for elephant OR drive over the border to SE Zim, experience the country there and get a tuskless (cheap), PAC (not bad-some with nice tusks), or trophy. You can set up and choreograph all 3 yourself or contact RSA/Zim booking agent Carl Knight. 'Could squeeze it all in in 2 weeks but 3 is recommended. My guestimate is that you can do the above (sans the trophy ele) for $20K (de-horned rhino-it actually has a horn growing back), $15K PAC elephant, and $15K NICE lion. Each is rounded up a tad, so $50Kish should do the trick. You'll be traveling more and tipping more people but that pales in comparison to the daily rates and trophy fee tallies. You likely won't be bringing the lion or ele back, but oddly the (lesser number) rhino is allowed...

I've read a number of times here that it is illegal for a non-citizen to shoot a PAC animal in Zimbabwe.

 

[mark-hunter]

And yet, some have been offered and shot. This question would be interesting to clarify.
If not legal, to find regulation for this?

 

[IvW]

Admittedly, i've seen a few insane pricing guestimates above, but for lion and rhino you'll be hitting 2 different places in SA (likely NW and Limpopo,) then either heading over toward Kruger (NE) in SA for elephant OR drive over the border to SE Zim, experience the country there and get a tuskless (cheap), PAC (not bad-some with nice tusks), or trophy. You can set up and choreograph all 3 yourself or contact RSA/Zim booking agent Carl Knight. 'Could squeeze it all in in 2 weeks but 3 is recommended. My guestimate is that you can do the above (sans the trophy ele) for $20K (de-horned rhino-it actually has a horn growing back), $15K PAC elephant, and $15K NICE lion. Each is rounded up a tad, so $50Kish should do the trick. You'll be traveling more and tipping more people but that pales in comparison to the daily rates and trophy fee tallies. You likely won't be bringing the lion or ele back, but oddly the (lesser number) rhino is allowed...

Where in SE Zim and with who can you hunt PAC elephants as a client? That is not legal....exactly one of the points I was making......

 

[Tanks]

You don’t need PAC elephants for inexpensive hunts. Tuskless is inexpensive and Camp Fire areas even cheaper.

 

[Zambezi]

I felt the photo of the buffalo with an ear tag and comment about pre-booking and its implication was in poor taste. However, I wouldn’t have become involved in this thread had I not see a post implying certain practices were a thing of the past done only by a few bad operators at that time. Those practices are certainly still occurring (to varying extents) in addition to well managed wild areas. What bothers me is the difficulty identifying outfitters being honest and those who are not. I wish it was easier to identify how dangerous game areas (primarily buffalo) are managed to create some confidence possibly such as a certification from hunting organization, but I never see that happening. How would you suggest best identifying properly managed wild areas vs areas that are only claiming to be?

I agree that some sort of certification by some hunting organisation would be beneficial and go a long way in identifying the bad apples that still exist... maybe something for someone to get off the ground.

As for identifying good operators, this forum is the best place to start. ASK QUESTIONS, LOTS OF QUESTIONS.
1. Ask here about the outfit/PH your are intending to hunt with. Most here will know of that PH/outfitter.
2. Ask about property sizes.
3. Property location/s.
4. Annual off-take of species. If you have a 10 000Ha area and their annual off-take of buffalo is 150 bulls, what does that tell you??
5. If you have the same size property as above and their annual lion quota is 3-4 males....
6. Ask straight out if the animals are CBL etc etc. There are many operators what are quite open about CBL / Managed / Free ranging / Self sustaining.

As mentioned about fences, SA properties HAVE to be fenced in order to legally own the animals and they are also fenced to stop not only poachers but squatters as well.

There are many many properties here that host the big 5 that are self sustaining and of a size that the animals don't even know they are fenced in. The behave in a natural manner. And it is big enough that you will die walking/stalking/chasing before a fence bothers you.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I've read a number of times here that it is illegal for a non-citizen to shoot a PAC animal in Zimbabwe.

I will double check with a few PH's I know, but perhaps "non-trophy" (non-export for the use of tribal communities) would be the proper terminology. There are some areas around the parks that are literally overrun with elephant so perhaps the communal areas are given some special dispensation in this regard. I have only taken elephant in the Caprivi, but I'm aware of good deals offered in Zim and have observed its large elephant population in areas.

 

[Jan Dumon]

South Africa has definitely not done itself any favors with some of the questionable practices.
I think the hunter should also do due diligence when booking a hunt and ask for references and do his homework.
The canned lion reputation will never be lived down. That's just the way it is. It doesn't help though that everyone , including outfitters from other countries , continuously hammer on the bad apples in our industry. I think that's really the point I was trying to make. Its no skin off my nose as I don't partake in these practices and can show a list of satisfied clients who can vouch to the quality hunting they experienced in both open and fenced areas. Its the better than though and know it all attitude that gets under my skin . The pot calling the kettle black if you wish. In 27 years I have been blessed with mostly amazing clients and have built up solid relationships with these people. lets show out the bad apples for everyone to see and stop generalizing or badmouthing. It bodes bad for all of us.

 

[VertigoBE]

I agree that some sort of certification by some hunting organisation would be beneficial and go a long way in identifying the bad apples that still exist... maybe something for someone to get off the ground.

As for identifying good operators, this forum is the best place to start. ASK QUESTIONS, LOTS OF QUESTIONS.
1. Ask here about the outfit/PH your are intending to hunt with. Most here will know of that PH/outfitter.
2. Ask about property sizes.
3. Property location/s.
4. Annual off-take of species. If you have a 10 000Ha area and their annual off-take of buffalo is 150 bulls, what does that tell you??
5. If you have the same size property as above and their annual lion quota is 3-4 males....
6. Ask straight out if the animals are CBL etc etc. There are many operators what are quite open about CBL / Managed / Free ranging / Self sustaining.

As mentioned about fences, SA properties HAVE to be fenced in order to legally own the animals and they are also fenced to stop not only poachers but squatters as well.

There are many many properties here that host the big 5 that are self sustaining and of a size that the animals don't even know they are fenced in. The behave in a natural manner. And it is big enough that you will die walking/stalking/chasing before a fence bothers you.

Hello Zambezi, and all others that have given their opinions so far,

I’d like to throw my two cents in, being completely new, inexperienced and uneducated to hunting in Africa. So far my experiences in hunting in Europe have luckily been formed with a few very ethical hunters, who taught me a lot.

One of the questions you put forward is “if you have a 10k hectare and 150 buffalo taken each year this should tell you everything”. Well actually this does not tell me anything, I have no figures to compare it to and would not know whether this is a lot or nothing at all. I can only compare to figures in Belgium or Scotland where I hunted before (not buffalo of course).

What I am trying to say is that there is a great lack of critical unbiased information for the prospective (first time) African hunter.

Perhaps a new thread or section in this forum could be dedicated to educating and informing people on how to recognise ethical hunting (from an advertisement or sales pitch of a ph/concession owner I mean to say).

I would very much appreciate such information as it is very hard to come by. Even this thread is a prime example of this. I do not know any of you personally or well enough to know who I should listen to, and whose advice I should take with a grain of salt. Most give eloquent and knowledgeable opinions, but I cannot as an outsider see who is to be believed, and who not.

Anyway, I’ll be going hunting (hopefully) in a few months for the first time in Africa. The only research I have done is putting my trust in the owner of the concession who is originally from the same birthplace as I am. And my taxidermist who hunted there before who said he has a nice thing going on. Every other concession holder / outfitter / broker I had spoken to all promised heaven on earth concerning ethics. Some more convincingly than others.

It is difficult to see clear in these muddy waters when even the (in my eyes) esteemed members of AH do not seem to agree on what constitutes an “ethical hunt”. Especially when the PH / outfitters / brokers also have their own stake in the game... after all they have a business to run and services to sell. So it is normal that they would defend, to the detriment of others, the aspects of hunting they do themselves.

To make it very clear, this is not an attack or criticism to anyone specific, I just do not know who or what to believe (apart from the obvious extremes of a 100hectare game farm or such).

10000 hectares for a Belgian is massive... For your information, we have a small game hunt in Flanders on 70-90 hectares. And will likely get into a big game area (wild boar and roe deer) of about 100 hectares later this year. We will have a few animals each year, but not much. Just to put things in (my) perspective.

V.

 

[Zambezi]

Hello Zambezi, and all others that have given their opinions so far,

I’d like to throw my two cents in, being completely new, inexperienced and uneducated to hunting in Africa. So far my experiences in hunting in Europe have luckily been formed with a few very ethical hunters, who taught me a lot.

One of the questions you put forward is “if you have a 10k hectare and 150 buffalo taken each year this should tell you everything”. Well actually this does not tell me anything, I have no figures to compare it to and would not know whether this is a lot or nothing at all. I can only compare to figures in Belgium or Scotland where I hunted before (not buffalo of course).

What I am trying to say is that there is a great lack of critical unbiased information for the prospective (first time) African hunter.

Perhaps a new thread or section in this forum could be dedicated to educating and informing people on how to recognise ethical hunting (from an advertisement or sales pitch of a ph/concession owner I mean to say).

I would very much appreciate such information as it is very hard to come by. Even this thread is a prime example of this. I do not know any of you personally or well enough to know who I should listen to, and whose advice I should take with a grain of salt. Most give eloquent and knowledgeable opinions, but I cannot as an outsider see who is to be believed, and who not.

Anyway, I’ll be going hunting (hopefully) in a few months for the first time in Africa. The only research I have done is putting my trust in the owner of the concession who is originally from the same birthplace as I am. And my taxidermist who hunted there before who said he has a nice thing going on. Every other concession holder / outfitter / broker I had spoken to all promised heaven on earth concerning ethics. Some more convincingly than others.

It is difficult to see clear in these muddy waters when even the (in my eyes) esteemed members of AH do not seem to agree on what constitutes an “ethical hunt”. Especially when the PH / outfitters / brokers also have their own stake in the game... after all they have a business to run and services to sell. So it is normal that they would defend, to the detriment of others, the aspects of hunting they do themselves.

To make it very clear, this is not an attack or criticism to anyone specific, I just do not know who or what to believe (apart from the obvious extremes of a 100hectare game farm or such).

10000 hectares for a Belgian is massive... For your information, we have a small game hunt in Flanders on 70-90 hectares. And will likely get into a big game area (wild boar and roe deer) of about 100 hectares later this year. We will have a few animals each year, but not much. Just to put things in (my) perspective.

V.

You seem like a knowledgeable person when it comes to European hunting so you have some experience when it comes to the actual hunting side of things.

With regards to your post regarding who to trust and how to gauge the area to be hunted I would suggest you start a new thread asking about the specific outfitter/PH you have in mind. Many many threads like this and I don't think the outfitter has his feelings hurt (well I hope not) as his reputation is something he stands on and is probably proud of it. If he isn't then that tells you something too.... Members here will give you an honest reply and those that have specific grumbles about the outfitter/PH can always PM you if they don't want to put it out in public.

When it comes to "ethics / ethical hunting" it is a personal and subjective thing. Only YOU can determine what YOU consider ethical.

Look up the hunting reports on that outfitter under their own reports and the reports of members who have hunted with them. PM the members, I'm sure they will give you honest feedback. Just remember that you will probably never ever get 100% positive feedback! Bad experiences can broadly be divided into "problems with the outfitter" and "problems with the experience"... some hunters can just never be pleased enough. Flight delays and they blame the outfitter. Cold front and rain in highveld winter so hunting is poor, they blame the outfitter... so be discerning when you get feedback.

Depending on the species you are after it is hard to say what size property is suitable. Also the geomorphology and vegetation is critical to carrying capacity and therefore size matters when this is taken into account.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

It is extremely unfortunate that fencing is a criterion in choosing an acceptable hunt. Sure, there are some areas left that aren't fenced, but I am far more put off on a hunt by seeing locals wandering around with their bicycles and cattle than knowing that in the far distance there is a fence to keep the two apart. The criterion that should perhaps be applied to a certain category is 'sustainable' as many have said, and that really just means breeding herds.
perhaps the answer is to create three categories, open, full disclosure and clients choose:
1. Unfenced, wild areas, example Selous, Zambezi Valley, etc.
2. Fenced game farms or areas with sustainable populations, example Save Conservancy and the larger South African farms. Not minimum size, just sustainable.
3. Place and take.

Obviously the price would diminish from category 1 to 3.
Do not pour scorn on class 3, it definitely has it's place to a certain sector including the biltong hunters. A word of caution from one who has lived here all my life and understands the 'African way'. The game breeding industry in South Africa generates a large amount of internal economic well being, AND it delineates and protects vast areas of land, albeit some in small pockets. Destroy that and see how long before it turns into squatters and goats!
In summary, choose your category and pay your money, but keep your lofty opinions and critisisms of the categories you don't like to yourself, because ALL ARE NECESSARY.