Question For Our German & Austrian Members

[Tex .416]

For the members that live in Germany and Austria, what is the general perception on differences between Heym and Krieghoff?

 

[Red Leg]

I have a pretty strong opinion based on my experiences in both countries (and likely won't track with the likely general opinion on our site), but look forward to hearing what our Teutonic friends have to say on the subject.

 

[rookhawk]

I have similar strong opinions without any residency bonafides to back it up. Quality is generally excellent while aesthetic can be wildly debated.

@Red Leg has a fair amount of German-Austrian weapons in his collection so he's a useful data point even if he lacks the correct passport.

 

[Tex .416]

I have a pretty strong opinion based on my experiences in both countries (and likely won't track with the likely general opinion on our site), but look forward to hearing what our Teutonic friends have to say on the subject.

I have similar strong opinions without any residency bonafides to back it up. Quality is generally excellent while aesthetic can be wildly debated.

@Red Leg has a fair amount of German-Austrian weapons in his collection so he's a useful data point even if he lacks the correct passport.

Well please, the two of you go ahead and share your experience.

I am curious about perceptions from the locals as sometimes as on several subjects in life I have found they have information that is not widely known from friends and family working in the businesses.

 

[rookhawk]

So I’ve handled a ton of Krieghoff shotguns. They are a cult following and I see the price and I do see the quality. I cannot abide the fact they are sporting clays guns and they can’t make a game gun to save their lives. Many people win live pigeon shoots with them.

As to K-gun double rifles: they are a bit fugly, the engraving is crude and childish, and the barrels cannot be re-regulated and are often regulated with a dremel. The safety system you either love or you hate. I cannot abide.

Original Krieghoff Neptune drillings and combination guns from the golden era? The finest ever made.

Heyms: a bit weird in their style, irrefutably one of the best quality, most accurate, most reliable modern double rifles. Are they better than $150k British rifles? Not even close, but they aren’t $150k.

Honorable mention: Just, Franzoi, Peterlongo, and other Austrian builders making lovely best guns.

Turn offs: boar back stocks, skip line and basket weave checkering, etc.

 

[rookhawk]

@Red Leg , your turn.

 

[Whit]

So I’ve handled a ton of Krieghoff shotguns. They are a cult following and I see the price and I do see the quality. I cannot abide the fact they are sporting clays guns and they can’t make a game gun to save their lives. Many people win live pigeon shoots with them.

As to K-gun double rifles: they are a bit fugly, the engraving is crude and childish, and the barrels cannot be re-regulated and are often regulated with a dremel. The safety system you either love or you hate. I cannot abide.

Original Krieghoff Neptune drillings and combination guns from the golden era? The finest ever made.

Heyms: a bit weird in their style, irrefutably one of the best quality, most accurate, most reliable modern double rifles. Are they better than $150k British rifles? Not even close, but they aren’t $150k.

Honorable mention: Just, Franzoi, Peterlongo, and other Austrian builders making lovely best guns.

Turn offs: boar back stocks, skip line and basket weave checkering, etc.

What do you define as the golden era of German weapons manufacturing? The post-WWI Suhl era?

 

[rookhawk]

What do you define as the golden era of German weapons manufacturing? The post-WWI Suhl era?

Golden era is 1919-1939, between the wars.

 

[Rimbaud]

I’ve got two kids in fancy college. Every year, I basically destroy a London best, or top Austrian rifle and/or European sports car. I lust after the Fanzoj kipplauf and want one with a few different barrels and optics. I checked w Fanzoj some years ago, and the starting price was €50,000. If I was smart, I would have saved/invested years ago for the kipplauf as for educational expenses. The struggle is the journey.

 

[Killo]

So I’ve handled a ton of Krieghoff shotguns. They are a cult following and I see the price and I do see the quality. I cannot abide the fact they are sporting clays guns and they can’t make a game gun to save their lives. Many people win live pigeon shoots with them.

As to K-gun double rifles: they are a bit fugly, the engraving is crude and childish, and the barrels cannot be re-regulated and are often regulated with a dremel. The safety system you either love or you hate. I cannot abide.

Original Krieghoff Neptune drillings and combination guns from the golden era? The finest ever made.

Heyms: a bit weird in their style, irrefutably one of the best quality, most accurate, most reliable modern double rifles. Are they better than $150k British rifles? Not even close, but they aren’t $150k.

Honorable mention: Just, Franzoi, Peterlongo, and other Austrian builders making lovely best guns.

Turn offs: boar back stocks, skip line and basket weave checkering, etc.

Hey Rookhawk do you shoot live pigeons?

We do allot of that down here in Mexico…

Love it!!

 

[One Day...]

As to K-gun double rifles... are often regulated with a dremel...

Really !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Care to share sources, evidences, pics of muzzles, rookhawk?

I find this really, really difficult to believe...

For what it is worth, it is the first time ever I hear someone making this type of comment on Krieghoff...

I agree that one either loves or hates the decocking "safety"; I agree that the "engraving" is at its best when completely absent; I will add that the nickel plating does nothing to improve the looks of the rifle and that I have seen a few rifles on which it was chipping away; I will agree that the ergonomics will work for you or not; but as to state that the rifles "are regulated with a dremel", I have certainly never seen, or heard, anything like that, and I am immensely skeptical.................................

As to Tex .416's original question, I am neither German nor Austrian, and although I was posted in Germany (where I hunted in the Black Forest) I never lived in Austria, but I hunted a lot in the Alps and the European mountain hunting community is fairly tight knit, with good or bad reputations crossing borders easily.
So, my input is as follows...
Both Heym's and Krieghoff's European reputation was based on their double rifles and drillings. Neither was considered a leader in turn bolts -- that was Mannlicher's, then Steyr-Mannlicher's unchallenged supremacy; and train loads of ex-military K98 were converted for both Teutonic gentry and Latin masses with various degrees of sophistication from exquisite to simply functional.
I am not aware of any issue with Krieghoff, but Heym had a very publicized accident with a double rifle action breaking under fire. This was, in the end, written off as one-of-a-kind "material defect" accident, but it hurt them tremendously for a while.
My experience with them is that both are effective and reliable, and I would argue that choosing one over the other is more a matter of technical choice (decocker), personal ergonomics, style & aesthetics, rather than quality.

 

[Red Leg]

So back to the original question - I suspect - quickly adding that I am neither Austrian nor German, but have hung out there a bit - that the majority of respondents would strongly support Krieghoff for shotguns and combination guns. As @rookhawk suggests, I, and a lot of very knowledgeable folks, believe that the Krieghoff Neptune was the finest combination gun ever made. The appreciation of that sort of expertise continues to this day. I would also suspect, even with the new popularity of Blaser shotguns, Krieghoff has won more competitive shotgun events than the next five guns of any manufacture combined. The big K-80 has a particularly stellar reputation among the experts who shoot for eye watering purses at box bird shoots.

The number of respondents who are truly familiar with double rifles will be a far smaller subset than German/Austrian shooters as a whole. I would suspect that they would select Heym by a a fairly meaningful margin for a double rifle - though a meaningful percentage would actually purchase a Krieghoff. The price differential is significant and seemingly growing.

Like Blaser, Krieghoff has made no attempt to replicate a British double rifle from between the wars. Their double rifles are modern in every way. The cocking slide is a brilliant solution to calm a PH with a newbie client behind him in the bush, and all that I have examined, two .500s and a .470 were quite accurate. Like @One Day... I too have never heard of a dremel tool being applied to a Krieghoff.

 

[One Day...]

And since I suggested sources and pics, I better do it myself

Glück im Unglück

Auf der Novemberjagd im Testrevier riss die Basküle der Doppelbüchse vom späteren Jagdkönig. Wir hakten beim Hersteller nach, wie es dazu kommen konnte.

wildundhund.de

NO, I am not bashing Heym, but here goes to show that ANY maker can have a bad day, so there is a tale of caution about praising one or damning another...


Full disclosure...

I did select Krieghoff over Heym for my own double rifle .470 NE, after ammo for my .450 #2 became impossible to find, but I did it not because of quality or failure concerns, but because I wanted the decocker: the "African Carry" scares me to no end, especially with a large number of folks (judging by YouTube videos) who would walk back to camp for failing muzzle discipline 101 if drill Sergeants were running safaris. Oh well...
Mine was also special-ordered without any engraving and with blued finish...
I resold it when I realized that it did nothing for me that my R8 .458 Lott / .375 H&H did no do better, and that the R8 came more naturally to my shoulder than the K Gun, but I never experienced any issue with it, and it was remarkably accurate, shooting routinely documented ~2" groups @100 yards with almost anything I fed it.

 

[steve white]

So I’ve handled a ton of Krieghoff shotguns. They are a cult following and I see the price and I do see the quality. I cannot abide the fact they are sporting clays guns and they can’t make a game gun to save their lives. Many people win live pigeon shoots with them.

As to K-gun double rifles: they are a bit fugly, the engraving is crude and childish, and the barrels cannot be re-regulated and are often regulated with a dremel. The safety system you either love or you hate. I cannot abide.

Original Krieghoff Neptune drillings and combination guns from the golden era? The finest ever made.

Heyms: a bit weird in their style, irrefutably one of the best quality, most accurate, most reliable modern double rifles. Are they better than $150k British rifles? Not even close, but they aren’t $150k.

Honorable mention: Just, Franzoi, Peterlongo, and other Austrian builders making lovely best guns.

Turn offs: boar back stocks, skip line and basket weave checkering, etc.

Peterlongo still around?

 

[steve white]

And since I suggested sources and pics, I better do it myself

Glück im Unglück

Auf der Novemberjagd im Testrevier riss die Basküle der Doppelbüchse vom späteren Jagdkönig. Wir hakten beim Hersteller nach, wie es dazu kommen konnte.

wildundhund.de

View attachment 727293

NO, I am not bashing Heym, but here goes to show that ANY maker can have a bad day, so there is a tale of caution about praising one or damning another...


Full disclosure...

I did select Krieghoff over Heym for my own double rifle .470 NE, after ammo for my .450 #2 became impossible to find, but I did it not because of quality or failure concerns, but because I wanted the decocker: the "African Carry" scares me to no end, especially with a large number of folks (judging by YouTube videos) who would walk back to camp for failing muzzle discipline 101 if drill Sergeants were running safaris. Oh well...
Mine was also special-ordered without any engraving and with blued finish...
I resold it when I realized that it did nothing for me that my R8 .458 Lott / .375 H&H did no do better, and that the R8 came more naturally to my shoulder than the K Gun, but I never experienced any issue with it, and it was remarkably accurate, shooting routinely documented ~2" groups @100 yards with almost anything I fed it.

View attachment 727301

Really strange, as that action is well side-bolstered, and that's what it's THERE FOR. I have seen cracked boxlocks in pictures, but nothing as catastrophic as that.

 

[Tex .416]

Here is the article run through translation:

FROM THE WILD AND DOG TEST GROUNDS: During a November hunt in the test grounds, the receiver of the double rifle belonging to the later hunting champion broke. We contacted the manufacturer to find out how this could have happened.

A dead fallow deer calf already lies before Uwe Beuschel. For him, it's the perfect start to the cross-district driven hunt on November 5, 2016, in the WILD UND HUND test area. Half an hour after the fallow deer, he sees two piglets approaching his stand in the old spruce forest behind him. The wild boars are trotting about five meters apart. The 48-year-old shoulders his double rifle and moves toward the first piglet. Shot. The sow rolls and drops. In the same momentum, he moves on, aiming at the second. There's a loud bang. Too loud. Hot gases explode in front of the hound handler's face. He can only hear the falling raindrops as a muffled sound.

Out of the corner of his eye, he sees the piglet dart away. The experienced hunter can't tell if it's been hit. He lowers the rifle. A gap yawns between the barrel and the breech, from which the brass tips of the cartridges gleam. He stares in disbelief at his shattered double rifle.

The officer carefully feels his face, checks his hands for blood. Nothing, thank God. The rest of his body is also unharmed. Only his ears are ringing – acoustic trauma. A quick call to the hunting manager, Heiko Hornung, and a replacement weapon is arranged. The driven hunt can continue for him. At the meeting point, the twenty-year-old and well-maintained Heym double rifle "80 B" in 9.3 x 74 R caliber is inspected. The receiver is broken almost in a straight line on both sides. Slight rust spots are visible on the fracture edges. The barrel assembly appears undamaged. Beuschel was using factory ammunition from Brenneke. There is much discussion, speculation, and questions.

We wanted to know for sure and contacted the manufacturer, Heym. "As soon as the weapon arrived, we naturally examined it immediately," said Managing Director Manfred Eisenbrand. The results indicate that it was likely a material defect. "We submitted the receiver to DEVA for testing. The initial analysis showed that the metal structure at that point is unnaturally coarse-grained. I suspect it's related to the heat treatment of the receiver. However, we can only make a final assessment after the final results are available," explains Bernd Helbig, a master gunsmith at Heym for 40 years. These results are expected in a few weeks.

"The surface rust on the broken edges is probably due to the high humidity. In addition, the buttstock is cracked," explains Eisenbrand. Restoration or reusing parts of the weapon is out of the question. "We were able to determine that the weapon left the Friedrich Wilhelm Heym GmbH factory in Münnerstadt in 1994," Eisenbrand explains. "The new company, Heym AG, was founded in 1998. At that time, we committed to providing spare parts and carrying out repairs. We did not assume any warranty obligations."

However, there is generally no danger associated with the "80 B" double rifle. According to the manufacturer, this is the first known case. How the Gleichamberg residents and Beuschel reached an agreement was unknown at the time of publication.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

I’m tagging @Lowdi to see if he will chime in. Looking through the build thread on his new 505 Gibbs, I noticed he 1) looks to have impeccable taste in firearms, 2) lives in Germany, actually not far from the Heym factory, and 3) owns three Heym doubles at present. He has an 88b in 375, a large frame 88b in 470 and an 89b in 450/400. I think he preference is rather apparent, but maybe he can also share what some of his fellow local firearm enthusiasts of the area prefer between K-guns and Heym.

 

[rookhawk]

Really !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Care to share sources, evidences, pics of muzzles, rookhawk?

I find this really, really difficult to believe...

For what it is worth, it is the first time ever I hear someone making this type of comment on Krieghoff...

A credible member of this forum informed me about his experiences with Krieghoff and their dremel regulation.

In a PM, he wrote:
“I know this sounds hard to believe. But when I was dissatisfied with the 3” group of my Krieghoff Big Ten, I talked to the US rep and he said they would regulate it for $300.

I thought wow that’s great. until I learned how they did it.

They actually do the same thing as Sabatti. he says they use a mill and remove material from one side of the crown until they can move one bullet over.

He then said 3” was good regulation”

 

[rookhawk]

And since I suggested sources and pics, I better do it myself

Glück im Unglück

Auf der Novemberjagd im Testrevier riss die Basküle der Doppelbüchse vom späteren Jagdkönig. Wir hakten beim Hersteller nach, wie es dazu kommen konnte.

wildundhund.de

View attachment 727293

NO, I am not bashing Heym, but here goes to show that ANY maker can have a bad day, so there is a tale of caution about praising one or damning another...


Full disclosure...

I did select Krieghoff over Heym for my own double rifle .470 NE, after ammo for my .450 #2 became impossible to find, but I did it not because of quality or failure concerns, but because I wanted the decocker: the "African Carry" scares me to no end, especially with a large number of folks (judging by YouTube videos) who would walk back to camp for failing muzzle discipline 101 if drill Sergeants were running safaris. Oh well...
Mine was also special-ordered without any engraving and with blued finish...
I resold it when I realized that it did nothing for me that my R8 .458 Lott / .375 H&H did no do better, and that the R8 came more naturally to my shoulder than the K Gun, but I never experienced any issue with it, and it was remarkably accurate, shooting routinely documented ~2" groups @100 yards with almost anything I fed it.

View attachment 727301

Thank you for sharing the link to the broken Heym. I used google translate and tried to read the article. It appears it was a 1994 made Heym 80B in 9.3x74R. Heym analyzed the rifle and they stated there was nothing wrong with the barrels whatsoever. The article and Heym made zero mention of the top lever, so it would be reasonable to believe that it was properly fastened. In the details, they state that the metallurgy of the action was improper, with large grain structure. They stated this is the only example of this phenomenon they had seen.

This was on an 80B, a model we never had in the USA. (We have 88B, 88BSS, and 89B as largebore models sold in the States)

 

[grand veneur]

Some German and Austrian members of the Forum should be better able to answer this question than I, as a Frenchman resident in Germany. Furthermore, I do not own a rifle of these two companies. I can only add to the discussion that both companies were old gunsmith workshops from Suhl that were relocated in West Germany after 1945 and have little to do with the original workshops. Purely subjectively, after having handled and fired rifles from both manufacturers, I would tend to prefer Heym.