Practice bullets vs hunting bullets

[mgstucson]

Attached is a photo of the stuff I got from my friend. If detailed photos of specific items, let me know & I'll add more photos.

Well Ray, that is quite an interesting assortment of punches and dies. Most appear homemade. There is nothing there that matches any known swaging equipment or system I have ever seen before, but many people were machinists, or knew machinists, and either made their own, or had a friend make it for them. It is difficult to tell sizes, OD's, ID's, etc. I don't really have a clue, but I would guess that this was some sort of locally invented/made/used equipment, maybe meant to be used with an arbor press or something similar. I would likely say the knowledge of how it was used probably passed with the man who invented it.

Here are pictures of equipment from known makers, most of whom are out of business entirely, or no longer making bullet swaging equipment.

BSS press and dies made by Larry Blackmon in Louisiana

CH Swag-O-Matic press and dies.

Herters 9Ton press and dies

Herters Super Bullet Maker press and dies

Herters Reloading press dies 223 caliber

Hollywood Gun Shop press and dies

BT Sniper dies and ejection system mounted in Lee Classic Cast reloading presses. Baseball handles are a cool touch.

RCE press and dies. I consider this press to be the best hand swaging press ever designed. This press could swage bullets all the way up to and including .730 caliber 12ga slugs. It could make jackets from strip metal or copper tubing. This press came with accessories to reload everything up to and including 50bmg.

Or go to this web site to see current production Corbins presses and dies for sale.

Corbins


At least you can see how others have done it and get some ideas of how things might work.

 

[Ray B]

My friend Chuck was a career machinist in the navy, so my guess is that you are correct and that he made most everything that he had. It's sad that I didn't visit him when he was making the bullets to see how they were made and what each piece of equipment was used.

 

[mgstucson]

Most people don't know that RCBS actually stands for Rock Chuck Bullet Swage. The founder started his career swaging 22 caliber bullets during WWII, when commercial bullets were unavailable because of the war. He worked out of a back room in the family laundry business. Most people in his little town used them to shoot Rock Chucks (ground squirrels). With this type of equipment you can make premium bullets so cheap you can use them for practice. Also, you will NEVER be without the bullets you want or need to practice or hunt. You are not forced to use weights made by commercial makers, you can make any type, any weight you want suited to your rifle, needs or preferences.

 

[Tintin]

Bruce Bertram does a wide range (including to suit many of the old British cartridges) of good value cup and core bullets that I generally use for plinking / paper and Woodleighs wherever possible for hunting.

 

[Daryl S]

I’ve been searching to find conversations about regarding this topic and I’m certain many people have done this.
As certain bullets go in and out of stock for though the years I’ve stocked up on both cheap and premium bullets for calibers I use,
Since my loads are not MAX for these situations what I’ve done is load the same train weight bullet with the exact same recipe and shoot these to get field practice through the year.
Then switching back over to my other stock of already worked up premium bullets which is the same recipe to keep everything simple and foul a barrel, confirm zero one last time, and hunt.

Though I have taken different weight bullets with a different POI as long as it’s not extremely different.

My current load before I was planing on going to Africa was for a 35 Whelen running 225g TSX at 2500 fps; but instead of just non stop reloading my good cases and primers I took a Speer 250g hot cor; loaded it with resized 06 brass ( I have pails full of it ) and a mod charge of IMR 3031 ( I have pounds and pounds of it ).

Ironically this load hits 2-2.5” high at 100 which at 2150 fps is light but gives me a dead hold at 200 to hit steel for practice. So no dialing but saves me from shooting all the premium stuff just to get trigger time in.

Fast forward I’m last minute going to Africa for the first time, different rifle same caliber.
Northforks 225’s at 2650 being the load, this load I interchange with Sierra 225’s mostly to keep the northfork stock back up until they become more available.

There must be guys who do this instead of just shooting premium stuff all year ?

I commend you for practicing. I know very few hunters around here actually do this. Most buy a box of bullets, go to "a" range in Sept. before the season, fire 2 or 3 shots and if they hit the paper at 100 or whatever meters/yards, GREAT - then they have 16 to 18 rounds remaining to shoot AT a moose.

 

[45-70guy]

I commend you for practicing. I know very few hunters around here actually do this. Most buy a box of bullets, go to "a" range in Sept. before the season, fire 2 or 3 shots and if they hit the paper at 100 or whatever meters/yards, GREAT - then they have 16 to 18 rounds remaining to shoot AT a moose.

It’s crazy to still hear these stories because as just an obsessive reloader I’m constantly shooting to confirm and keep confidence up on rifles and loads as to not think about that part and to focus on the hunt.

But it seems that same thought process is of those who don’t practice as they don’t worry about it either

 

[forshoes]

Good topic.

I always practice and hunt with the same bullet and the same ammo. Accuracy, repeatability, predictability are the upmost importance to me.

The last thing I want to consider is why one bullet is performing different than the other when I actually get to the hunting grounds. Or Waste a bunch of expensive match grade ammo trying to get my rifle back to where I need it to be prior to a hunt.

If you were practicing to develop a skill set or get rid of a bad habit, then I could appreciate using a lower recoiling caliber. But if that lower recoiling caliber is a primary hunting rifle, then use the ammo that you intend to hunt with.

Once my Rifle is dialed in, I put it away. Prior to a hunt I shoot it once or twice at the range to validate accuracy and if that means 2- 3 shots, that’s it. Once I get to my hunting destination, I repeat for validation.

When you look at the cost of airline tickets and the safari itself, practice ammo cost is not as relevant.
Reload and the cost drops even more.
I have more faith in my reloads than some of the 'factory' rounds I've shot recently. I also run EVERY round thru my rifle to make sure it chambers prior to the hunt. It has saved me from real embarrassment at hunting camp.

 

[jwp475]

With the 225 TSX and Power Pro Varmint out of my 1885 Highwal I chronological 2850 FPS

 

[Daryl S]

Sure. Corbins manufactures bullet swaging presses and dies. Others like CH4D, Herters, RCBS, RCE, BSS and Hollywood Gun Shop have made bullet swaging presses and dies down through the years, but Corbins is about the last one standing, BSS and RCE owners have just retired in the last year or so. Corbins web site is just Corbins.com. There are a few makers that have made bullet swaging dies to fit heavy reloading presses like the Rock Chucker. These type reloading press arrangements are popular with the benchrest shooters who make their own bullets because they do very well with small caliber bullets. I know Corbins and RCE presses and dies are used by the US Dept. of Defense for making experimental prototype ammo, and special purpose, special ops ammo.

Generally to make a good bullet in a particular point form (i.e. spitzer, round nose, or flat tip) you need a 3 die swage set. This one set will make all weight bullets in that caliber and with that point form. This same set will make lead bullets, half-jacket bullets, FMJ, hollow points, soft points, open tips, metal tips, plastic ballistic tips, etc. For additional point forms, you just have to add 1 additional die per point form to the set. You can make cup and core, bonded core, and partition bullets. You can even make exotics like jackets filled with lead shot that will basically disintegrate on hard targets to reduce danger wall penetration or ricochet off pavement in self-defense urban environments. You can make a similar exotic bullet with tungsten powder core. Tungsten is heavier that lead by volume.

For jackets, you can buy commercial jackets made from gilding metal (90 -95 percent copper/5-10 percent zinc) from commercial makers like Sierra, Hines, J4, or Corbins. You can also use fired cartridge cases for jackets, which is a VERY inexpensive and great option for practice bullets and premium hunting bullets. You can also use commonly available rigid copper tubing to create bullet jackets. Commercial jackets and cartridge case usually start with a jacket thickness about .015 at mouth and get progressively thicker toward base of bullet. Although you can sometimes special order thicker jackets. Copper tubing used for jackets is commonly available in .025 - .035 wall thickness, and thickness is usually consistent base to tip, although you can bevel the jacket to have a tapering thickness like a commercial jack.

Here is a video from Corbins making a very nice Metal Tip Rebated Boattail bullet on .308 caliber.

Corbins Bullet Swaging Video

Here are some pictures of bullets I make.

358 caliber bullets
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375 caliber bullets
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416 caliber bullets
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Those are awesome. I've barely dabbled in making my own bullets.
The last picture of the 12 bore steel shot was, cut off and used to centre a ball in the bore of a 12 bore SxS smoothbore, not choked gun, allowed slightly better than 10" off hand groups at 100 meters using both black powder and smokeless loads.

 

[mgstucson]

Those are awesome. I've barely dabbled in making my own bullets.
The last picture of the 12 bore steel shot was, cut off and used to centre a ball in the bore of a 12 bore SxS smoothbore, not choked gun, allowed slightly better than 10" off hand groups at 100 meters using both black powder and smokeless loads.

Wow Daryl,
Those are GREAT. What caliber is the steel ball? That steel ball round might be great for following up leopard.


I have had some sabots made by my son in 10ga and 12ga, but I haven't fired any yet. I first batch actually shrunk when I brought them to the arid AZ desert climate. We are going to try a second batch. I have rifled barrels for my 12ga, but only smooth bore in my 10ga doubles. I am working on a sabot design with slanted grooves. I am hoping this will impart at least some minimum spin in a smooth bore if loaded on a pivot that will allow rotation under pressure. I had some custom gas check makers manufactured for me last year to make full bore 12ga and 10ga gas checks for full bore hard cast slugs. I am working on a design to make dies to produce full bore 12ga and 10ga jacketed slugs.

Premium 12ga ammo is VERY expensive, and the "cheaper" rounds just don't shoot the same as the premium rounds. This is clearly a case of just spending a LOT of money on practice rounds, or finding a way to make your own premium rounds cheap enough to practice with.

Here is the start of my solution to make inexpensive 12ga and 10ga premium hunting rounds. These projectiles would all cost less than 50 cents

12ga sabots
L to R:
1. .500 cal "rifled" sabot
2 . .500 cal straight sabot
3. Plastic sabot pivot
4. Solid sabot - the solid sabot is for 1/2" steel balls that can be stacked in a column. Thet can also be used a pivot if my plastic pivot proves less than adequate.
5. .600 cal "rifled" sabot
6. .600 cal straight sabot

12ga bullet, rifled sabot and pivot in column of Hollywood shotshell reloading die

12ga sabots with .500 cal bullets I swage, except the middle one which is 750gr Hornady A-Max

.500 cal bullets and the dies used to make them. First picture is jacketed 50 cal bullets made with 45acp brass as a jacket. You can make longer 50 cal jacketed bullets using 308 brass.

.510 cal, 50bmg, lead proof bullet and die used to make it. (Bullet is NOT max weight for this die)

.510 cal, 50bmg bullets, 750gr A-Max, lead proof bullet from my dies. I can make my own ELD jacketed, metal tipped, 750gr bullets with my dies, I just don't have any pictures of those at present. Talk about saving on practice bullets. The savings are great with 50bmg practice bullets. You certainly CANNOT practice precision shooting with surplus ammo or components.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I’ve been searching to find conversations about regarding this topic and I’m certain many people have done this.
As certain bullets go in and out of stock for though the years I’ve stocked up on both cheap and premium bullets for calibers I use,
Since my loads are not MAX for these situations what I’ve done is load the same train weight bullet with the exact same recipe and shoot these to get field practice through the year.
Then switching back over to my other stock of already worked up premium bullets which is the same recipe to keep everything simple and foul a barrel, confirm zero one last time, and hunt.

Though I have taken different weight bullets with a different POI as long as it’s not extremely different.

My current load before I was planing on going to Africa was for a 35 Whelen running 225g TSX at 2500 fps; but instead of just non stop reloading my good cases and primers I took a Speer 250g hot cor; loaded it with resized 06 brass ( I have pails full of it ) and a mod charge of IMR 3031 ( I have pounds and pounds of it ).

Ironically this load hits 2-2.5” high at 100 which at 2150 fps is light but gives me a dead hold at 200 to hit steel for practice. So no dialing but saves me from shooting all the premium stuff just to get trigger time in.

Fast forward I’m last minute going to Africa for the first time, different rifle same caliber.
Northforks 225’s at 2650 being the load, this load I interchange with Sierra 225’s mostly to keep the northfork stock back up until they become more available.

There must be guys who do this instead of just shooting premium stuff all year ?

@45-70guy
If you want a good load that's completely interchangeable for your Whelen.
The Speer 259gn hot core and 250gn partitions have the same BC but vastly different prices.
Load them with 65gn of CFE 223 for 2,700 fps out of your Whelen and you have a cheaper ( but still a good hunting bullet) for general game and practice. Even works well on pg. The big partition for when you need that extra penetration in bigger critters like eland and giraffe.
These loads will give you plenty of power for anything out to 400 yards.
Fortunately the Whelen ( I know mine does) isn't really fussy what you throw down the barrel. Mine will group 10 different weights and styles of projectiles into less than 1.5" at 100 and all pretty close at 200. After that it's a case of know the range and the ballistics of each projectile.
Bob

Hopefully that gives you some food for thought to play with with the Whelen

 

[mgstucson]

It is just hard to beat the 35 Whelen for big critters until you get to the kind who hunt you if you miss.

 

[Daryl S]

mgstucson​

mgstucson, it's amazing what dies and a high pressure press can achieve.
Those sabots are amazing, but I prefer to find a load shooting a full bore sized bullet for my 12 bore. Currently I have a 12 bore Mossy with 24" rifled tube. I've yet to try any round ball loads in it. The pink cup as shown in my post above, ie: cut-off steel shot wad, as well as the bottom gas-check portion of a WWAA white trap wad (from trap range - all free) work to keep the ball in the centre of the bore and will take the spin of the rifling, at least somewhat.
You asked about the steel ball. Those are .710"WW alloy balls from a Tanner mould and have 536 gr. weight. I also have Tanner (UK) moulds casting .595", .677", .724" and .740".
As long as the ball is under bore size, the cupped gas check will keep it in the middle of the bore and it won't lead at any velocity. These would be perfect, as my rifled tube has .724" groove diameter. With the AA wad base, I put one, cup down on the powder, then wads to fill the space then one, cup-up holding the ball, then star crimp or roll crimp. I prefer adjusting the wad column to get a star crimp. I have 5 of these moulds and they are super. I use wire strippers (I prefer the white handled ones) to cut into, then I twist/turn the ball and the big sprue comes off leaving a tiny little tit, which I just tap down with the jaw of the wire stripper - the result is a perfectly round ball, no sprue.
Here's a picture of the balls as-cast. The mould is pictured with the ball and wads above.
Jeff Tanner used to make these moulds and now his son carries on the business as ballmoulds dot com.
I first tried side cutters, but they left an unsightly and high protrusion of lead. The wire strippers are best, in my most humble opinion.

 

[Daryl S]

Oh, just remembered. I bought a bag of sabot wads that came from Ballistic Products, I think. They hold a .575"ish bullet, such as the bullet moulds for US civil war rifles in .58 cal. The best hunting bullet, would be the Lyman #57730 which casts a bluff nosed bullet at 570gr. Now, if the wooden handle of the plunger is removed and reduced in diameter slightly to increase the hollow base wall, and also shortened to about 3/16", the slug will come out at about 600gr. in hard lead. That should penetrate about as deeply as a person needs. This would work best in a rifled barrel, of course. The sabot looks very much like your first one, but with straight vertical grooves.

 

[mgstucson]

Daryl S
I have a set of Russian molds that cast a .729 slug for my 12ga. I am going to try them with hard cast and my full bore gas checks. I still think I will be cleaning lead from the bore.

No doubt about it though, casting and swaging are the best ways to beat the high cost of ammo and enable more practice. To me the real benefit is being able to make what we want, when we want, regardless of what is available retail. Thereby we can practice and hunt whenever we want with loads that work best for our purpose, not ones we had to settle for because it was the best available or most affordable.

Priceless

 

[Daryl S]

Have you slugged your bore for groove dia?
If the gas seal is a good one, likely not necessary, though.
You are absolutely right about bullet prices.
Does that mould have 1 or more grease grooves? If so, I've found SPG, Lyman's Black Powder Gold as well as 60:40 BeesWax/Vaseline to all be excellent smokeless powder bullet lubes as well as for Black Powder loads. I find them to be about equal for all.
These are all superior to the old Lyman Black wax lube in my opinion. I've run .50 and .45 cal. Bullets with all of them up to and over 2,000fps without lead fouling.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

It is just hard to beat the 35 Whelen for big critters until you get to the kind who hunt you if you miss.

@mgstucson
Easy solution my son.
DON'T MISS.
Then you don't have problems.
Bob

 

[Daryl S]

What's this MISS?????????????

Yeah - OK - did it once, but not on a chase you done and stomp you type of moose.LOL
Yeah- I know they're big.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Don't underestimate your practice/"cheap" bullets. Premium bullets are meant for Premium Game.

OK,...you want to practice cheap in prep for your "dream hunt". Your "dream hunt" is your first African Safari for PG. Your package includes: warthog, springbok, impala, blesbuck, and kudu, zebra, or wildebeest.

I see your state as New Hampshire.

I'm a white privilege, racist, homophomic, anti whatever pig when it comes to Speer and Sierra bullets. We parted ways decades ago, and I haven't regretted it. However, fast forward a couple of three decades, and a 22 Hornet rifle later. My 22 Hornet is the wee stepping stone in maybe regaining my confidence in Speer and Sierra bullets.

With that said. Hunt with those loads and learn and gain confidence for yourself if your practice loads {ammo} does the job on North American Big Game animals; they will work on African PG animals. However, I would recommend using better/premium bullets for the larger PG animals.

JMO, I don't believe animals go around in the after life bragging about whether they were killed by cheap or premium bullets.

 

[45-70guy]

@45-70guy
If you want a good load that's completely interchangeable for your Whelen.
The Speer 259gn hot core and 250gn partitions have the same BC but vastly different prices.
Load them with 65gn of CFE 223 for 2,700 fps out of your Whelen and you have a cheaper ( but still a good hunting bullet) for general game and practice. Even works well on pg. The big partition for when you need that extra penetration in bigger critters like eland and giraffe.
These loads will give you plenty of power for anything out to 400 yards.
Fortunately the Whelen ( I know mine does) isn't really fussy what you throw down the barrel. Mine will group 10 different weights and styles of projectiles into less than 1.5" at 100 and all pretty close at 200. After that it's a case of know the range and the ballistics of each projectile.
BobView attachment 757739View attachment 757740
Hopefully that gives you some food for thought to play with with the Whelen

It’s true Bob out of my 7-8 whelens all bullets and powders will group 1.5” or less.
I did just that with the Speer hot cor as my “practice bullet in my 20” barrel rifle.
They are still a good hunting bullet but way cheaper than anything else out there.