possible to form 450/400 3" from 450/400 3 1/4"?

matt85

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with 450/400 3" brass being nearly impossible to find at the moment I find myself wondering if I could make it from other brass. first and foremost the 450 NE case comes to mind but I quickly found this brass is just as rare. then the 450/400 3 1/4" came to mind, I can actually find this stuff for a reasonable price. now im aware the 450/400 3" and the 450/400 3 1/4" are very different animals. but my question is, can you make 450/400 3" from 450/400 3 1/4" brass? if so could advice me on how?

any other cases that have potential as a parent case?

thank you
-matt
 

PaulT

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Matt, I am certainly no historian, nor expert on N.E's but this is simply my take on the references I have on the development of both cartridges.

It appears that the original 450/400 3 & 1/4" was in existence during the black-powder era of the late 1800's (prior to the 3" version),and was in use when the transition from black-powder to smokeless powder was made.

Early on it was found that the new loads, utilizing the then new smokeless powders, created a little too much pressure for the existing 3 &1/4"cases as they had only ever been designed and constructed to tolerate the pressures produced by the previous black-powder loads and caused some rounds to stick in the chambers.
(this has obviously since been rectified with modern brass cases for the 3&1/4").

It was Jeffery that introduced the 3" version with thicker case walls and a fatter case in order to overcome pressure issues and sticky cases.

Apart from obvious difference in length, this reference to the difference in girth of the two cases is the only reference I am able to find that would suggest that the two cases are not inter-changeable.
 

sestoppelman

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I think if you look hard enough some brass will turn up. MidwayUSA does have Hornady loaded ammo however, buy a couple boxes, shoot them up and bingo, brass! Also Huntington Die Specialties has Bertram formed brass for sale under .400NE, same as the .450-400 I believe. You could ask them. And finally I would contact BELL and see if they have some. I did have some from my Ruger, but I fear I sold it. Good luck!
 

sestoppelman

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More possibilities.

Cliffs Gunsmithing in Utah list some on their site.

Custom Brass and Bullets.com

Krieghoff International is selling once fired in this cal.

Jamison International

Bertram Brass
 

matt85

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i know the 3 1/4" brass isnt interchangeable but what if you shortened it and resized it in a FL sizer? while not the same, the 450/400 3 1/4" is the parent case for the 450/400 3" according to my research. not saying its possible though... i wish i had a case or two to try converting them.

hornady factory ammo is pretty expensive at $100 a box considering i would only buy it for plinking (i do not like the DGX bullet). bertram brass is also expensive at $100 a box (might as well buy hornady factory ammo). having said that i did buy 2 boxes of hornady factory ammo to get me started but 40 pieces of brass will not last many loadings without a decent neck sizing die (i have a neck sizing die on order).

my trouble is im an avid shooter and will easily burn threw brass if i dont have a decent stock to rotate. thankfully the recoil of big bore guns tends to keep the number of shots down in a single session (i try to limit myself to 30). but, i still burn threw about 100 cartridges a month with my 375 H&H.

i will check those other sources when i get off of work.

thanks
-matt
 

matt85

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More possibilities.

Cliffs Gunsmithing in Utah list some on their site. out of stock

Custom Brass and Bullets.com out of stock

Krieghoff International is selling once fired in this cal. they had two boxes in stock, I bought both

Jamison International out of stock

Bertram Brass too expensive/out of stock
thanks for the heads up! 40 pieces of once fired brass is a heck of a lot better then nothing.

-matt
 

Russ-F

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with 450/400 3" brass being nearly impossible to find at the moment I find myself wondering if I could make it from other brass. first and foremost the 450 NE case comes to mind but I quickly found this brass is just as rare. then the 450/400 3 1/4" came to mind, I can actually find this stuff for a reasonable price. now im aware the 450/400 3" and the 450/400 3 1/4" are very different animals. but my question is, can you make 450/400 3" from 450/400 3 1/4" brass? if so could advice me on how?

any other cases that have potential as a parent case?

thank you
-matt
This is an old thread but the original question “can 450/400 3” Jeff brass be made from 450/400 3-1/4” wasn’t really settled.

The answer is a definite ‘NO’.

Aside from the 400 Jeff having a larger diameter at the base, the rim thickness is less on the 450/400 3-1/4” case so there’d be too much headspace if used in a 400 Jeff chamber.

Regards
Russ
 

pamtnman

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Because an 1894 450/400 3-1/4” BPE double rifle has all my attention, I’ve been wrestling with this same question. .450 BPE brass (.450NE) is the parent cartridge to the 450/400, and it CAN be resized to 450/400. The original 450/400 was called the “400 reduced from 450”...the 450 being the original. Rim thickness is an issue on all but Kynoch.
 

Russ-F

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The .450 BPE is the parent cartridge to the .450/400 3-1/4”(BPE & NE) but NOT the .450/400 3” Jeffery which is a very different case & has a much thicker rim. It makes no difference to the rim thickness if Kynoch made the brass (Kynoch loaded both the 3-1/4” & the 3” of course).

Or put another way the .450/400 3” Jeffery case cannot be formed from the basic .450-3/14” case.

Regards
Russell
 

pamtnman

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The .450 BPE is the parent cartridge to the .450/400 3-1/4”(BPE & NE) but NOT the .450/400 3” Jeffery which is a very different case & has a much thicker rim. It makes no difference to the rim thickness if Kynoch made the brass (Kynoch loaded both the 3-1/4” & the 3” of course).

Or put another way the .450/400 3” Jeffery case cannot be formed from the basic .450-3/14” case.

Regards
Russell
Kynoch long made and still makes today double rifle ammunition. It was their hallmark and specialty. Kynoch was the gold standard Double rifles take rimmed rounds, and my experience has been Kynoch has had a handle on rim thickness better than any other modern brass maker, except recent Hornady. BELL, Bertram, others produced brass with thick rims that required lathe time to get them to properly fit into a closed DR action. The 450/400 3” is almost a totally different thing than the 3-1/4”. But a .450 NE case is exactly a 450/400 3-1/4” that has not yet been formed/ reduced to the smaller caliber.
 

Russ-F

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Pamtnman,
The difference in rim thickness between the basic .450 BPE or NE case & the .450/400 3” Jeffery case is not dependant on who made made it (i.e. quality control), the difference is part of the specifications. The rim is 0.042” thick on the .450 BPE/NE family (including the .450/400 3-1/4”) but 0.065” on the Jeffery.

As you note & as already mentioned in earlier posts the Jeffery is also different in other respects from the .450/400 3-1/4” - including case diameter above the rim & actual rim diameter so getting back to the original question - forming one from the other isn’t practical nor is there any need to try to do so.

I’ve had issues with Bertram brass in the past as well but that said - we have to be thankful they did at least produce brass in calibres not covered by anyone else.

Regards
Russell
 

pamtnman

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I have found the rim thickness to be dependent upon who makes the brass I use in my double rifles. More specifically, modern Kynoch has been either a perfect fit or very close, while all others but the 2015 run of Hornady brass has been mediocre.
 

Russ-F

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The rim thickness specifications for the .450 BPE / NE family of cases are very different from that for the Jeffery case (which was designed to have a thicker rim). The difference between the two has nothing to do with quality control or who made the case.

Jeffery made a marketing point of using a thicker rim (i.e. stronger therefore better). In reality the thinner rim of the original .450 3-1/4” case (plus the same thickness on most larger calibres) was more than adequate in a double rifle.

The tolerance on rim thickness should be very closely controlled especially as it determines headspace but as you’ve found out some recent makers don’t always control it as they should. Sometimes it’s rough headstamping raising burrs which is the problem rather than actual rim thickness. Certainly the brass currently used by Kynamco (Kynoch) is good. I’ve never had to try the Hornady brass.

Regards
Russell
 
 

 

 

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