Politics

[Nature Boy]

Honestly, it’s late and you’re not worth the time. If you want to educate yourself, figure out which primary macronutrient we buy from Russia and what our alternative is. If canpotex doesn’t figure in to your answer you haven’t figured it out yet.

You are not worth the time. You want the proxy war, I do not. period

 

[Nature Boy]

Absolutely it does. More joys of an interconnected global economy. You gotta deal with nasty people with whom your interests don't really align when it's beneficial to do so. China for instance.

The consideration here is;

Does the short, medium and long term costs associated with a resurgent Russia to US trade interests for the foreseeable future justify short term actions like Russian sanctions which hurt everyone now. The overall consensus? Probably, although I'm sure the US and everyone else will be very eager to resume trade with Russia as soon as humanly possible once they've declared themselves 'really very sorry' for this particular mess.

Politics, huh?

exactly my point. We will be right back where we were and causing a mess for what? Ferrous metals? It is what it is.

 

[Alistair]

exactly my point. We will be right back where we were and causing a mess for what? Ferrous metals? It is what it is.

Hopefully we will be back where we were, yes. Maybe with some additional leverage over Russia and with a bit more understanding of their capabilities, but getting back to square one at the end of this is much preferable than letting Russia run riot and improve their hand whilst demonstrating US/NATO weakness to the world and losing political favors and close trade relationships.

The US has spent a whole lot more to achieve a whole lot less in the past

 

[Nature Boy]

Hopefully we will be back where we were, yes. Maybe with some additional leverage over Russia and with a bit more understanding of their capabilities, but getting back to square one at the end of this is much preferable than letting Russia run riot and improve their hand whilst demonstrating US/NATO weakness to the world and losing political favors and close trade relationships.

The US has spent a whole lot more to achieve a whole lot less in the past

Russia is a gas station, I doubt that changes. Yup, we spend and spend and spend. That's the issue imo. It is what is is. We will see what happens.

 

[Red Leg]

Russia is a gas station, I doubt that changes. Yup, we spend and spend and spend. That's the issue imo. It is what is is. We will see what happens.

I frankly do not believe your assertions are worth my or any one else's time. You repeat talking points from what one finds in the comments section of Revolver and the like. You ignore the greater question of a very different Russia and the threat it would represent having successfully absorbed Ukraine. History seems irrelevant or perhaps unknown to you. You disregard truly expert opinion from those who actually have real experience in the matters you rant about. I think @WAB has it just about right. There are people here with whom I disagree and debate, but whom I genuinely respect. I'll focus on those discussions. They are informed and worth arguing with. But I wish you well.

 

[Scott CWO]

The largest deficit in goods in the United States is with China. In fact, over 65% of the trade deficit – or $419 billion – is because of imports from China. The main imports that the US purchased from China include clothing, machinery, and electronics.

Opposite, China was benefitting. The purposeful destruction of the USA manufacturing base (NAFTA for one thing) ruined the middle class in the US and now we are actually starting to in shore this again. Well, china still makes 95% of our antibitoics and we can't make a GD car since we have no chips. lol

We have trade deficits with almost everybody and we are only printing money to buy those things, it is not sustainable. Our debt to GDP is ridiculous and you have adversarial countries trying right now to get the world off the US dollar. Hopefully, that won't happen for a long time.

I generally agree but NAFTA had nothing to do with China. WE do need to start making things in the USA again, for sure.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

No Russian crude drives up the price per your example. Buit it seems all here really love this proxy war vs big bad Russia, so be it.

Accept it and go and find another forum.

 

[Scott CWO]

Russia is zero threat to our "security" unless this stupid proxy war for money gets them to luanch nukes? Is that good for us? Lol. California has a bigger economy than Russia. This is what they said about Iraq and Aghanistan. Ever hear about the USA getting any OIL from Iraq? Lmao. China owns that. Thx obummer. Now the Taliban is running Afghanistan, doing whatever they want and better armed than ever. Iraq doesn't even sell us any oil. All these people killed and lives ruined for NOTHING. All you hawks gonna send your kids to die for Ukraine? I doubt it. It's not the reality you all want it to be. It's a big grifting scheme and nothing more. We already have boycotted Russian oil to the detrement of our now tanking ecomony and our debt load is gonna kill us off fast.

Yes, we and Ukraine have made Russia a very small threat - now.

 

[Ray B]

The questions that the US and allies have vis a viz Russia are: 1. What is the end game or the attacks- how far will Russia go in expansion of Russia & What situations would prompt Russia to use nuclear weapons?
Tor over 100 years the US has been paying agents in the FBI and over 75 years in the OSS/CIA to obtain answers to these sorts of questions. For several years and situations the information from these agencies has been incorrect. resulting in decisions and policies that have been costly in blood and treasure.
Considering the financial improprieties between Ukraine and Biden, I would hope that the intelligence community could separate themselves from the political aspects so that they can provide accurate risk assessments- whether the diverse focused inepts follow the information or not.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

@Nature Boy

“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”

― Winston S. Churchill

 

[mdwest]

 

[WAB]

United States Imports from Russia of Fertilizers was US$1.28 Billion during 2021, according to the United Nations COMTRADE database on international trade. United States Imports from Russia of Fertilizers - data, historical chart and statistics - was last updated on November of 2022.

Not sure exact percent but this is a lot and the point was and is that we got oil, fertilizer, etc from RUSSIA, whil getting very little of anything from Ukraine. But you go ahead and tell everybody that this doesn't affect US prices. I'll wait.

OK, one last attempt to point out your logic gaps. You earlier stated that the US gets MOST of its fertilizer from Russia. This is totally FALSE and in the post quoted here you admit that you simply don’t know. I retired as an officer and divisional president of one of the top four global producers in 2009. At that time we were a $20B company. $1.28 B may sound like a lot to you, it is not in the global fertilizer market. As I stated previously, any Russian imports are for a single macro nutrient which our neighbors to the north are fully capable of supplying. If you care to educate yourself, I have now given you ample clues with which to do so.

Additionally, these sound bites you are picking up are made by talking heads who know nothing about most of which they speak. On this forum you have true experts in military matters, the defense industry, energy, economics, and ag chemicals. You would do well to try to tap into that knowledge base rather than insult it.

 

[Opposite Pole]

I will say this concerning US involvement in Ukraine – THANK YOU!

This war is about stopping the spread of evil and control over others by aggressive regimes. Soviets have ruled and ruined parts of Europe in a not too distant past. No sane person could want that to happen again. Besides tremendous human cost and total loss of freedom during the past occupation, following it, it has taken the affected economies decades to get back on track and within a grasp of what is considered normal living standards. Why the soviets are so obsessed with controlling ever more territory when they are already failing miserably at running their land is a mystery to me. Why they want their neighbours’ economies to struggle is another mystery. Stronger economies make for better trading partners, this means growth for the country’s economy and improvement to its people’s living standards. Why push for the opposite?

I’ve heard numerous times that Ukraine has only itself to blame as it could have simply declared it won’t join NATO and Russia would leave them alone. This is total nonsense of course as Russia’s demands were for Ukraine to not join or even align itself with the EU and not reform its government and economy and therefore remain a poor, undeveloped country. It was also Russia that invaded Ukraine in 2014 for no reason other than the unquenched soviet desire for ever more territory.

In monetary terms, the USA is the largest provider of aid to Ukraine, and for that, we are very grateful. However, it seems many in the US are under the impression that we in Europe do nothing and just watch the US pick up our bills. This is partly true concerning not reaching NATO’s defence spending goals by some of the European members. While Poland did fulfil its commitments in the past, I consider the current goal of spending 5% of our GDP on the defence budget a far more appropriate figure than the required NATO minimums.

But, while the USA is the largest aid provider in absolute terms, in relative terms (% of GDP) some European countries are also quite heavily involved (as they should) and some ought to be embarrassed. The below statistic might be of interest to you.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/

The above are official government spending figures. I do not have accurate information about what goes on in other countries, but I will tell you about the non-government support in Poland. Since the beginning of the war over eight million refugees crossed from Ukraine to Poland. That equals to over 1/5th of our entire population. A few millions of these people are still here. Selected few amongst them had the means to rent or purchase property the vast majority do not have such means. These people are living in our houses, they eat our food, and their children attend our schools. I am housing a mother with two small girls – escapees from Kyiv, in one of my flats. Unlike governments, we as private citizens have no means of supporting Ukraine with military aid. Instead, we do what we can. Aside from mass-scale humanitarian aid collections run in larger supermarkets country-wide, people organise other help. Through our shooting club, we have sent a considerable number of IFAKs to the front. How many? All that we could physically purchase. There was a shortage of this gear on the market, but we managed to send several thousand. Further, I and a few of my colleagues and business partners purchased and sent several fitted-out 4wd ambulances. These weren’t exactly cheap and consumed most of my budget so that’s it for my planned elephant, buffalo, lion, and mountain hunts. They will now be postponed by several years at least. Especially with our economy and my businesses taking a hit with electricity prices rising by 500% and gas prices rising by 800% because of this sick, soviet ambition. I understand many in the US are tired of their country’s involvement in armed conflicts globally. But letting bullies get away with bullying only sharpens their appetite. As a result, more and more people are affected by them. Rest assured, we, little people in other countries, are doing what we can. You are not the sole aid provider, and your help is greatly appreciated. The invaders must be stopped, or another iron curtain will descend across the continent and perhaps the world.

 

[Nature Boy]

I frankly do not believe your assertions are worth my or any one else's time. You repeat talking points from what one finds in the comments section of Revolver and the like. You ignore the greater question of a very different Russia and the threat it would represent having successfully absorbed Ukraine. History seems irrelevant or perhaps unknown to you. You disregard truly expert opinion from those who actually have real experience in the matters you rant about. I think @WAB has it just about right. There are people here with whom I disagree and debate, but whom I genuinely respect. I'll focus on those discussions. They are informed and worth arguing with. But I wish you well.

I frankly do not believe your assertions are worth my time nor anyone else's time. Irony of you mentioning history is laughable. Ukraine can not win a war vs russia, ever. They haven't been slowed selling oil. (In fact, yellen is secretly pushing for more of their oil to be bought) Ukraine is a ultra corrupt country, thus why NATO would not allow them in previously. War hawks talk tough when the bullets aren't aimed at them. Hunter Biden and burisma is documented. The grift is in, like always. How'd that history work in Vietnam??? "stop the commies". It is now a tourist destination and new manufacturing base. Russia took Crimea years ago, what did that do? We were buying a ton of oil from Russia pre war, why? Big bad enemy? Why are we helping them?

China is the threat, period. not russia. This will likely end in a cease fire and it will go back to exactly what it was.

 

[Nature Boy]

I frankly do not believe your assertions are worth my or any one else's time. You repeat talking points from what one finds in the comments section of Revolver and the like. You ignore the greater question of a very different Russia and the threat it would represent having successfully absorbed Ukraine. History seems irrelevant or perhaps unknown to you. You disregard truly expert opinion from those who actually have real experience in the matters you rant about. I think @WAB has it just about right. There are people here with whom I disagree and debate, but whom I genuinely respect. I'll focus on those discussions. They are informed and worth arguing with. But I wish you well.

U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen on Friday said her country is happy for India to continue buying as much Russian oil it wants including at prices above a G7-imposed price cap mechanism, as long as it avoids Western insurance, finance, and maritime services that are subject to the cap.

 

[Nature Boy]

I generally agree but NAFTA had nothing to do with China. WE do need to start making things in the USA again, for sure.

I know that but NAFTA caused a huge loss of US jobs as did going to china. They made more profits so if you are a shareholder of say Apple (who refused to criticize chy-na when they have 2M in camps and disappear people like Jack Ma among other things yet freely criticize the USA all the time) then you did ok I guess. The fact is they are pulling it back and away from chy-na who forces you to share tech and steals whatever you do not share. There is, to this day, the stupid agreement we have to share tech and education with china, beyond belief stupid. China owns Smithfield, our largest pork and poultry producer. Thjey just shuttered one of the larger plants. Thy have purchased more US land than anyone in recent years (what kind of stupid country sells their land to their arch enemy?).

There were 370,000 chinese nationals in our Universities as of 2019/2020. Read the Book "The 100 Year marathon" by Mike Pillsbury, will open your eyes to the real enemy.

 

[Nature Boy]

Accept it and go and find another forum.

no, you go away. I'm not sure why you want to not allow me to simply have an opinion. Beat it

 

[Nature Boy]

Yes, we and Ukraine have made Russia a very small threat - now.

lol, okie dokie. Somebody posted earlier they would be gone in 60 years on their own. You might want to read up on China.

 

[Nature Boy]

OK, one last attempt to point out your logic gaps. You earlier stated that the US gets MOST of its fertilizer from Russia. This is totally FALSE and in the post quoted here you admit that you simply don’t know. I retired as an officer and divisional president of one of the top four global producers in 2009. At that time we were a $20B company. $1.28 B may sound like a lot to you, it is not in the global fertilizer market. As I stated previously, any Russian imports are for a single macro nutrient which our neighbors to the north are fully capable of supplying. If you care to educate yourself, I have now given you ample clues with which to do so.

Additionally, these sound bites you are picking up are made by talking heads who know nothing about most of which they speak. On this forum you have true experts in military matters, the defense industry, energy, economics, and ag chemicals. You would do well to try to tap into that knowledge base rather than insult it.

Ok, so what? The point was we were buying it from RUSSIA, along with a lot of oil and nothing from Ukraine. So why are we buying things from russia (our big bad threat per all here??????). We get nothing of any importance from Ukraine. But please do explain why Russia is a big threat to te USA? I would love to hear it from experts like you? I don't care what job yu had braggart.

 

[Nature Boy]

I will say this concerning US involvement in Ukraine – THANK YOU!

This war is about stopping the spread of evil and control over others by aggressive regimes. Soviets have ruled and ruined parts of Europe in a not too distant past. No sane person could want that to happen again. Besides tremendous human cost and total loss of freedom during the past occupation, following it, it has taken the affected economies decades to get back on track and within a grasp of what is considered normal living standards. Why the soviets are so obsessed with controlling ever more territory when they are already failing miserably at running their land is a mystery to me. Why they want their neighbours’ economies to struggle is another mystery. Stronger economies make for better trading partners, this means growth for the country’s economy and improvement to its people’s living standards. Why push for the opposite?

I’ve heard numerous times that Ukraine has only itself to blame as it could have simply declared it won’t join NATO and Russia would leave them alone. This is total nonsense of course as Russia’s demands were for Ukraine to not join or even align itself with the EU and not reform its government and economy and therefore remain a poor, undeveloped country. It was also Russia that invaded Ukraine in 2014 for no reason other than the unquenched soviet desire for ever more territory.

In monetary terms, the USA is the largest provider of aid to Ukraine, and for that, we are very grateful. However, it seems many in the US are under the impression that we in Europe do nothing and just watch the US pick up our bills. This is partly true concerning not reaching NATO’s defence spending goals by some of the European members. While Poland did fulfil its commitments in the past, I consider the current goal of spending 5% of our GDP on the defence budget a far more appropriate figure than the required NATO minimums.

But, while the USA is the largest aid provider in absolute terms, in relative terms (% of GDP) some European countries are also quite heavily involved (as they should) and some ought to be embarrassed. The below statistic might be of interest to you.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/

The above are official government spending figures. I do not have accurate information about what goes on in other countries, but I will tell you about the non-government support in Poland. Since the beginning of the war over eight million refugees crossed from Ukraine to Poland. That equals to over 1/5th of our entire population. A few millions of these people are still here. Selected few amongst them had the means to rent or purchase property the vast majority do not have such means. These people are living in our houses, they eat our food, and their children attend our schools. I am housing a mother with two small girls – escapees from Kyiv, in one of my flats. Unlike governments, we as private citizens have no means of supporting Ukraine with military aid. Instead, we do what we can. Aside from mass-scale humanitarian aid collections run in larger supermarkets country-wide, people organise other help. Through our shooting club, we have sent a considerable number of IFAKs to the front. How many? All that we could physically purchase. There was a shortage of this gear on the market, but we managed to send several thousand. Further, I and a few of my colleagues and business partners purchased and sent several fitted-out 4wd ambulances. These weren’t exactly cheap and consumed most of my budget so that’s it for my planned elephant, buffalo, lion, and mountain hunts. They will now be postponed by several years at least. Especially with our economy and my businesses taking a hit with electricity prices rising by 500% and gas prices rising by 800% because of this sick, soviet ambition. I understand many in the US are tired of their country’s involvement in armed conflicts globally. But letting bullies get away with bullying only sharpens their appetite. As a result, more and more people are affected by them. Rest assured, we, little people in other countries, are doing what we can. You are not the sole aid provider, and your help is greatly appreciated. The invaders must be stopped, or another iron curtain will descend across the continent and perhaps the world.

Thanks for a well thought out response vs attacks, appreciate that. The euros have only themselves to blame for relying on Russia for energy. The green BS is just that and most of Europe believed that lie. Trump TOLD YOU not to do it, but you all did. So if Russia/Soviets are trying to get the empire back then WHY IN THE HELL are you financing it? It doesn't make any sense and the USA was also buying Russian oil. The russians are never getting the Soviet Union back, their country is in shambles. That is my belief. Poland is part of Nato, therefore the USA will protect you even though the NATO countires won't spend to the NATO treaty. I'm not blaming them, they can continue to take advantage of USA stupidity/money laundering. Same with Japan and S. Korea while they clean our clock economically. The worst part? All these countries around the world bitch about US involvment and bash the USA all the time and yet here they are having us protect and pay for them once again.

If this was about humanitariian issues then someone can explain to me why Maduro is running people over in tanks and the USA does nothing.(well, we buy their Oil, lol) How bout Cuba? Maybe N. Korea where people starve and the leader shoots off missiles?

Needless to say what you are doing is awesome on a personal basis but this should have been avoided. If Trump was still President vs this Manchurian Candidate fool we have no way Russia goes in. Obummer was weak, obummer 2 is weak and Putin is not stupid.