Politics

Me watching people debate war studies and military strategy of the 20th century with @Red Leg:D Pop Popcorn:

This is a friendly group, but by its nature and the anti's trolling it, a somewhat anonymous one. I find it helpful to assume that everyone is pretty darned smart with some serious bonafides behind their opinions. In this situation, I'd assume you're speaking to Admiral Halsey behind that screen on the other end rather than Cletus the raccoon slayer from Appalachia.
 
If Waco had not occurred, neither would have OKC.

Ruby Ridge also played a significant roll in McVeigh's decisions.
 
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Ruby Ridge also played a significant roll in McVeigh's decisions.

I think McVeigh was a solution to a non-existent problem. He believed in more than destroying the government, he believed in the ideals of a white supremacist utopia, one that was national-socialist as well. (90% alignment of ideology to Bernie Sanders, minus the racism towards blacks and jews)

But we don't have to speculate about McVeigh very much at all. They found his copy of "The Turner Diaries" that was the inspiration for a lot of white socialist / white supremacy causes. It was to McVeigh what Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto are to other radicals.

McVeigh was a terrorist as well, not just a racist soldier fighting a war in his own mind. He killed a pile of kids in the daycare center of the Federal building as well. He had no problem with who he killed to achieve his terrorist ends. What were those ends he was seeking? A race war leading to a white utopia based on national socialistic principles.

But beyond the point of order on history, my point is at present white supremacy is not a demonstrable threat in the USA. I've only seen Klan members once in my life, 25 years ago in the hills of West Virginia, and they couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag. Evidence suggests their numbers are way, way down since they were an ultra-minority in fringe areas of the country more than two decades ago. Yet the Department of Homeland Security issued a warning that it is indeed our greatest national security threat at present? That is evidence of a deep state working to overthrow the ideals of the republic my friends. That's not lunacy. That's the actual platform of the BLM/Antifa current democrat party. And if you don't agree with their ideology 100% you're filled with hate and must be destroyed. Don't believe me? Look what they do to Chick-Fil-A as a company because their FORMER CEO held a position in favor of traditional marriage roughly 24 months after that was the opinion of the Democrat President of the USA, Barrack Obama, held that same exact viewpoint. Do you see what I mean? You will go from tolerated as a different opinion to an ideological enemy in a single election cycle.

The soul of the republic is at stake this cycle. I hope those thinking of voting for Biden take a look at the actual belief system and demands of BLM. The whole-hearted support for radicalization of the current DNC, and the incredible destruction that is happening to major and minor cities. A vote for Trump is a vote for one thing: A vote for law and order with equal protection under the law for everyone.

If the Dems win the presidency, the rioting is only going to get worse. They've deemed those against BLM to be "white supremacists" already. They've told minorities that the PRIMARY, SUPER MAJORITY reason for their troubles is not just racism, but systemic racism. They've told the youth that their problems are systemic inequity of our capitalist system. So instead of talking about decisions and consequences, mathematically provable facts as to why outcomes are bad with school, life, encounters with the justice system, the left has transferred all accountability off these minorities and kids. They are now enraged, having believed the myths and are burning the world down. This isn't going to end well for any American whatsoever.

Yet the DHS announces the BIGGEST security threat is white supremacist terrorists? Under what rock or bush do these fictional people live?
 
I am enjoying brushing up on my history by reading these posts. Honestly. I find them refreshing and entertaining as all parties wage to prove their points. The points being made are all based on a relative understanding of facts, not supposition or hearsay, or worse, pure emotion. Kudo’s to all the minds posting as I find this entertaining, and also non-threatening, whether I agree with a certain post or position or not.
 
Mcveigh and Nichols were just a couple of sexually misquided drones that lived in the little town of Herrington in Kansas. Mcveigh got out of the Army because he couldn't make the special forces. I heard he flunked the mental part. They both didn't like the affirmative action polices of the military. I don't think they belonged to any group. You would think that somebody that age would be more interested in where the next keg party was or chasing girls. My cousins husband did the sketch of Mcveigh and never got anything for it. He worked at the body shop where the truck was rented. He says because he was convicted of felony. One thing about it old Mcveigh played the cold killer to the end.
 
I am enjoying brushing up on my history by reading these posts. Honestly. I find them refreshing and entertaining as all parties wage to prove their points. The points being made are all based on a relative understanding of facts, not supposition or hearsay, or worse, pure emotion. Kudo’s to all the minds posting as I find this entertaining, and also non-threatening, whether I agree with a certain post or position or not.



AH is blessed with a number of very knowledgeable individuals, who are not afraid to share that knowledge, or their opinions.

There are threads I enjoy reading and occasionally ask questions in, knowing my knowledge of the subject doesn't allow me to add much to the discussion.

We tend to wade into waters we are familiar with. Occasionally an individual will dive into waters they know nothing about. This often proves embarrassing and entertaining, depending on the perspective.

Each of us have areas of expertise that dwarf the understanding of most. The opportunity to read and
become a sponge is one of the true gifts that Jerome has provided us.
 
Me watching people debate war studies and military strategy of the 20th century with @Red Leg:D Pop Popcorn:

This is a friendly group, but by its nature and the anti's trolling it, a somewhat anonymous one. I find it helpful to assume that everyone is pretty darned smart with some serious bonafides behind their opinions. In this situation, I'd assume you're speaking to Admiral Halsey behind that screen on the other end rather than Cletus the raccoon slayer from Appalachia.
Cletus found a bunch
Screenshot_20200910-182422.jpeg
 
. Mcveigh got out of the Army because he couldn't make the special forces. I heard he flunked the mental part.

He actually didnt even make it that far...

Before you can go to the Special Forces Qualification Course (Q course), you must first attend Special Forces Assessment and Selection (SFAS).. and get "selected" by the cadre to attend the Q course at the end of a 21 day program of mental and physical challenges...

McVeigh washed out on day 2 of SFAS..

He essentially made it past day 1 where you attend some orientation, get issued some gear, get assigned a place to sleep and a place to put your stuff, take an initial physical fitness test, and a couple of other initial tests like a swim assessment, etc..

Before actual selection events started on day 2... he quit..

The media's version of the story that he failed the MMPI is false.. and was debunked by the Army shortly after CNN et all started trying to tell the world that McVeigh had attended "Special Forces training" and all of their other BS...

The MMPI is (or was back in those days.. Im not sure about now) typically administered on Day 1 of SFAS..

but it always takes several days, often more than a week, to get the results back.. back then (not sure about today) each test had to be individually reviewed and evaluated by a licensed psychologist.. tests are more than 500 questions long and take considerable time to even score, much less evaluate (again, things are likely different today.. but in McVeighs time the MMPI was taken by hand with a pencil and a bubble score sheet and then each and every answer was individually scored by the doc)..

Then there is the fact that McVeigh's records clearly show he was a voluntary drop (he quit) in the early AM on day two...

If he were an MMPI failure he would have been forcibly removed from the course... an involuntary drop..
 
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LMFAO...! Triggered by what exactly? The arrogant opinion of somebody with no skin in the game?
Furthermore, I never stated that you don't have a right to an opinion. I stated very clearly that as a non-US citizen, your opinion on this POTUS or US politics means less than nothing to me. I would worry about your own country's issues of which I'm am sure there are many.
LMFAO too!! Yet you were triggered enough to join in when I commented in the negative over your poster boy. And yes my country has issues - no country hasn't - and if you want to comment on that, go ahead: at least I have a thick enough skin to accept it for what it is.
 
I don't know anything about you and you know nothing about me, my education, or my experiences. I suggest you reflect on that before accusing me of not knowing my history. I'll simply say I am comfortable with credentials.

Plan "Red" like the period Plan "Orange" and a host of other contingency plans have been developed as planning exercises since WWI. The Pentagon still does them and reviews and updates pertinent ones on the shelf. It was indeed declassified because it was a no longer a relevant plan. That the Canadians were upset that they would be targeted in the case of such a war plan is I suppose understandable, but should hardly be surprising from a pure planning perspective. I know of no single respected historian who believes that the United States and Great Britain were ever remotely close to hostilities after WWI.

The United States, Great Britain, and Japan were indeed involved in a tense game of high stakes poker with respect to the five interwar naval treaties. Begun with a Euro-focus in 1922, Japan's emerging power changed that emphasis to the Pacific. All three countries were acting absolutely in their own national interests. The US and Great Britain both came out of those negotiations pretty well and both at Japan's expense; so much so that Japan eventually denounced the 5/5/3 construct (note the agreed parity between the US and UK). Germany was a bit player with little real voice in the outcome. Italy and France chose to largely ignore them.

Your unsubstantiated claims about Lend Lease remain curious to me. I repeat, the structure was created to prevent a financial burden to the UK. Roosevelt was certain the US would have to eventually enter the war against Germany, and was willing to provide whatever materiel could be spared from the US's rearmament program. However, he was opposed by a powerful isolationist consensus in the Republican Party and similar wing in his own. "Lend Lease" allowed him to end cash sales to Britain for the temporary "lease" of basing rights - most of which were never meaningfully utilized. In other words, the US essentially gave Britain whatever it had available - there was no expectation the "loaned" materiel would ever be returned. Thus, not only did the US not "nullify" a non-existent threat, it did everything in its power to increase the war fighting potential of Great Britain. With all due respect, this isn't even a debatable point.

I will agree, at the time, some in the UK government saw it as a one-sided deal in the favor of the US. However, by the end of the war, any clear thinking politician and every historian saw the agreement as the first step leading to the great Anglo-American partnership of WWII.

And with respect to the Wickes class and other four-stack destroyers, what other country gave the UK a single hull of any sort? Certainly, the US Navy was beginning a cautious ship construction effort as war loomed, and the older destroyers of the reserve fleet would shortly become obsolete. Also, many of them required extensive repair and overhaul. However, the Navy opposed the provision of these ships due to the needs generated by Pacific and Atlantic war-planning exercises. Indeed, those that remained in the US Navy soldiered on through WWII. "Lend lease" provided a fig-leaf to give 50 ships of that class to the UK and Canada. It is not like any were returned. If anything, FDR acted to aid Britain in spite of his Navy experience. And while you may denigrate that loan or gift, they were certainly more capable than the armed trawlers with which the UK was supplementing convoy escorts at the time.
As you say the tensions of the 30's had much influence over US thinking and policy. Indeed there were US plans for exercises after WWI, but Plan Red was both formulated only AFTER the US failed to get it's way to limit Britains navy at the Geneva Naval Convention in 1926, and, specifically targeted the UK as the main threat to the US. In this aspect Plan Red stands apart from all other post-WWI US exercise plans.

With all due respect the terms of Lend Lease stipulated the return of materiel to the US - hence the word "Lend" in the title. I agree much of what the US gave was not returned. Instances of destroying materiel - such as dumping US built aircraft off UK aircraft carriers at the end of the war - are many. But it all wasn't one way traffic. The US received priceless technology in return such as sharing the UK's cavity magnetron - identified as the most valuable cargo to ever enter the US - is one good example. The benefits of that one piece of technology handed over to the US are incalculable. As for concessions to bases, the UK granted them as part of payment in kind as with sharing it's technology - if the US underutilised them, then that was their decision.

Those destroyers were mothballed by the US after WWI and then loaned to the UK because - due in part to the limitations of the international naval treaties - no-one else had any ships in such numbers that the UK needed. So the point is moot here. However, the UK did conti up honouring it's obligations under the terms of Lend Lease agreement, making it's final payment to the US in 2006.

But the upshot of all this was the massive stimulus injected to the US which sent their production industry into overdrive which has generally continued from then on and allowed the US to gain superpower status since 1945. But in comnent to my point about China in an earlier post, I think the US now faces a growing threat, and will have a run for it's money.
 
As you say the tensions of the 30's had much influence over US thinking and policy. Indeed there were US plans for exercises after WWI, but Plan Red was both formulated only AFTER the US failed to get it's way to limit Britains navy at the Geneva Naval Convention in 1926, and, specifically targeted the UK as the main threat to the US. In this aspect Plan Red stands apart from all other post-WWI US exercise plans.

With all due respect the terms of Lend Lease stipulated the return of materiel to the US - hence the word "Lend" in the title. I agree much of what the US gave was not returned. Instances of destroying materiel - such as dumping US built aircraft off UK aircraft carriers at the end of the war - are many. But it all wasn't one way traffic. The US received priceless technology in return such as sharing the UK's cavity magnetron - identified as the most valuable cargo to ever enter the US - is one good example. The benefits of that one piece of technology handed over to the US are incalculable. As for concessions to bases, the UK granted them as part of payment in kind as with sharing it's technology - if the US underutilised them, then that was their decision.

Those destroyers were mothballed by the US after WWI and then loaned to the UK because - due in part to the limitations of the international naval treaties - no-one else had any ships in such numbers that the UK needed. So the point is moot here. However, the UK did conti up honouring it's obligations under the terms of Lend Lease agreement, making it's final payment to the US in 2006.

But the upshot of all this was the massive stimulus injected to the US which sent their production industry into overdrive which has generally continued from then on and allowed the US to gain superpower status since 1945. But in comnent to my point about China in an earlier post, I think the US now faces a growing threat, and will have a run for it's money.
No credible historian on either side of the Atlantic would subscribe to the assertions of such revisionist history. The last serious dispute between the two nations occurred in 1895 over gold production areas claimed by both Venezuela and British Guiana. The US saw it as a Monroe Doctrine challenge and arbitration quickly settled the issue.

The US has done theoretical war planning exercises for a vast array of contingencies since WWI - largely due to its unpreparedness in 1917. Many of those plans have little real world utility, but are valuable staff training opportunities - far more valuable than merely dusting off the more likely war plans. I have participated in many such efforts at Army, DOD, and inter-agency level. I have reviewed in great detail their history, their planning assumptions, and the context in which they were originally developed. In the thirties it would have been irresponsible for the military not to explore war-planning against the then only extant peer military power.

The most serious dispute during the inter war years was actually economic and ended with FDR's refusal to attend the 1933 London Economic Conference - aggravating to the UK without question but hardly the basis of "casus belli." Other issues on the fringes revolved around India and Ireland. After all, classic Imperialism has found little fertile ground on these shores. With respect to naval forces, both the UK and the US ended up with exactly the same naval ratio following the naval treaties. I will concede some British politicians and military professionals resented the United State's rise to world power parity - a resentment that seems apparently to fester to this day.

The US destroyer fleet was built between 1917 and 1919 and much of it was moved to the reserve fleet following the war. The ships were actually little used based upon their planned life cycle. I assume you understand that "operational life" of a military platform is based on use and not a calendar. Obviously, technological development advances that cycle. Though the reserve fleet ships needed work to bring to war fighting readiness, they were hardly worn out hulks.

Both countries shared vital military developments throughout the war. Radar was clearly an initial British area leadership. On the other hand, it is quite likely Montgomery would never have had the opportunity to be victorious at Alamein without the timely arrival of US supplied Grant tanks and P-40 (Kittyhawk) ground attack configured aircraft. You would be hard pressed to find even the most anti-American British student of history who believes that the battle of the Atlantic could have been won without US intervention. The British first cracked the German enigma-based codes - the US the Japanese naval and diplomatic ones. Most notably, the US and UK were partners in the Manhattan Project. The US didn't formally assist the UK in developing their own nuclear weapons stockpile (limited by the altruistic McMahon Act), but the WWII cooperation created the foundation leading to the UK's membership in the nuclear weapons' club in 1952. It was a war-winning alliance that pays dividends to this day. So spare me the one-sided relationship red herring.

It is also worth noting that before the US entry and during WWII, the United States provided the United Kingdom with 52 Billion 1945 dollars of military assistance. That is almost three quarters of a trillion dollars in 2020 value. The vast majority of that was never repaid - and never expected to be repaid.
 
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No credible historian on either side of the Atlantic would subscribe to the assertions of such revisionist history. The last serious dispute between the two nations occurred in 1895 over gold production areas claimed by both Venezuela and British Guiana. The US saw it as a Monroe Doctrine challenge and arbitration quickly settled the issue.

The US has done theoretical war planning exercises for a vast array of contingencies since WWI - largely due to its unpreparedness in 1917. Many of those plans have little real world utility, but are valuable staff training opportunities - far more valuable than merely dusting off the more likely war plans. I have participated in many such efforts at Army, DOD, and inter-agency level. I have reviewed in great detail their history, their planning assumptions, and the context in which they were originally developed. In the thirties it would have been irresponsible for the military not to explore war-planning against the then only extant peer military power.

The most serious dispute during the inter war years was actually economic and ended with FDR's refusal to attend the 1933 London Economic Conference - aggravating to the UK without question but hardly the basis of "casus belli." Other issues on the fringes revolved around India and Ireland. After all, classic Imperialism has found little fertile ground on these shores. With respect to naval forces, both the UK and the US ended up with exactly the same naval ratio following the naval treaties. I will concede some British politicians and military professionals resented the United State's rise to world power parity - a resentment that seems apparently to fester to this day.

The US destroyer fleet was built between 1917 and 1919 and much of it was moved to the reserve fleet following the war. The ships were actually little used based upon their planned life cycle. I assume you understand that "operational life" of a military platform is based on use and not a calendar. Obviously, technological development advances that cycle. Though the reserve fleet ships needed work to bring to war fighting readiness, they were hardly worn out hulks.

Both countries shared vital military developments throughout the war. Radar was clearly an initial British area leadership. On the other hand, it is quite likely Montgomery would never have had the opportunity to be victorious at Alamein without the timely arrival of US supplied Grant tanks and P-40 (Kittyhawk) ground attack configured aircraft. You would be hard pressed to find even the most anti-American British student of history who believes that the battle of the Atlantic could have been won without US intervention. The British first cracked the German enigma-based codes - the US the Japanese naval and diplomatic ones. Most notably, the US and UK were partners in the Manhattan Project. The US didn't formally assist the UK in developing their own nuclear weapons stockpile (limited by the altruistic McMahon Act), but the WWII cooperation created the foundation leading to the UK's membership in the nuclear weapons' club in 1952. It was a war-winning alliance that pays dividends to this day. So spare me the one-sided relationship red herring.

It is also worth noting that before the US entry and during WWII, the United States provided the United Kingdom with 52 Billion 1945 dollars of military assistance. That is almost three quarters of a trillion dollars in 2020 value. The vast majority of that was never repaid - and never expected to be repaid.
I never said Lend Lease was one-sided relationship - as I stated earlier each side still thinks it was screwed by the other - and I never denied it was necessity to supply materiel for the UK to continue the war, as you confirm. But whether or not it was the intention for the UK to repay the full amount, they did comply with it's terms, making their final contractual payment in 2006.
 
I never said Lend Lease was one-sided relationship - as I stated earlier each side still thinks it was screwed by the other - and I never denied it was necessity to supply materiel for the UK to continue the war, as you confirm. But whether or not it was the intention for the UK to repay the full amount, they did comply with it's terms, making their final contractual payment in 2006.
No one in the US believes that this country was “screwed” by the Lend Lease program. I reiterate, every legitimate historian on both sides of the Atlantic sees it as the foundation block that created the great wartime alliance. No “Lend Lease” material was repaid nor expected to be repaid. However, the program ended in August 1945. The British economy had become dependent upon those shipments, and was desperate due to the costs of the war, the collapsing empire, and yes, the early demands of the infant welfare state. In 1947 William Clayton and John Maynard Keynes negotiated the Anglo-American loan to the tune of 3.75 billion USD at a very low interest rate. That loan covered post August 1945 shipments and a host of other needs of the British economy. It was that loan that was retired in 2006. That is a fact not an opinion.

I should note that in 1948 the Marshall Plan money began to flow, and Britain received the lion’s share of those funds as well (around 2.5 billion in then US dollars). Those funds were gifted and not a loan.

I will hasten to add “cash and carry” pre-1941 sales, lend lease, the Anglo-American loan, and the Marshall Plan were not altruism on America’s part. Helping Great Britain persevere in the early stages of the war, and propping up the British and other European economies after the war was clearly in the US national interests. Even so, most educated Britains have reflected gratitude for those efforts.

So, not counting the vast US contribution to the war effort made in blood and treasure to support its own forces and operational needs which of course also benefited the UK war effort directly and indirectly, the US, through “Lend Lease” and the Marshall Plan gave, without repayment or expectation of repayment, almost a trillion 2020 USD’s in war and post-war aide.

You are welcome.
 
No one in the US believes that this country was “screwed” by the Lend Lease program. I reiterate, every legitimate historian on both sides of the Atlantic sees it as the foundation block that created the great wartime alliance. No “Lend Lease” material was repaid nor expected to be repaid. However, the program ended in August 1945. The British economy had become dependent upon those shipments, and was desperate due to the costs of the war, the collapsing empire, and yes, the early demands of the infant welfare state. In 1947 William Clayton and John Maynard Keynes negotiated the Anglo-American loan to the tune of 3.75 billion USD at a very low interest rate. That loan covered post August 1945 shipments and a host of other needs of the British economy. It was that loan that was retired in 2006. That is a fact not an opinion.

I should note that in 1948 the Marshall Plan money began to flow, and Britain received the lion’s share of those funds as well (around 2.5 billion in then US dollars). Those funds were gifted and not a loan.

I will hasten to add “cash and carry” pre-1941 sales, lend lease, the Anglo-American loan, and the Marshall Plan were not altruism on America’s part. Helping Great Britain persevere in the early stages of the war, and propping up the British and other European economies after the war was clearly in the US national interests. Even so, most educated Britains have reflected gratitude for those efforts.

So, not counting the vast US contribution to the war effort made in blood and treasure to support its own forces and operational needs which of course also benefited the UK war effort directly and indirectly, the US, through “Lend Lease” and the Marshall Plan gave, without repayment or expectation of repayment, almost a trillion 2020 USD’s in war and post-war aide.

You are welcome.
Thank you for the benefit of your education. I have REALLY enjoyed discussiing this with you. Most, self included, have hitherto been given "facts" plucked at odd places from the chronology of events, but I appreciate your lucidness and clarity with which you've taken time to formulate and make replies to me. Now I have a clearer understanding of that period. As others have inferred this has been a great walk through history.

......now viewers, we return to coverage of the Trump Biden match.
 

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