Politics

[318AE]

it appears I’ve actually discovered the third-rail of the politics thread.

The third rail of the politics thread is expressing knowledge or expertise based on watching a few sensationalized podcasts or anecdotes.

There is a certain participant, here from Ontario that does the same thing. He gets a similar reaction.

 

[pilar]

OK, I can answer that one, just based on experience.

When I enlisted, way back in the Reagan Administration, the only people who applied for benefits were those that were truly down hard. Something catastrophic happened, and they might apply. The rest of us just "sucked it up". It wasn't that the injuries weren't qualifying, it's that unless you were really in trouble, no one applied. Part of this was an approach to life (we tended to not ask for help if we could get by without it... call it pride, or sheer intestinal fortitude, or stupidity, or whatever) and part was simply a lack of knowledge. We assumed that the benefits were for those cases who really needed them... usually guys with a Purple Heart, or something like that.

By the time we got to GWOT, people were encouraged to apply, and formally instructed in how to apply. This includes actual classes in the mandatory "Transition Assistance Programs" required by Congressional mandate. That explains the "record pace".

Now, about the "more likely to be approved part". Remember the "encouraged to apply" part? This includes several state agencies (I can personally vouch for Texas and Idaho) working with the veteran to make sure their paperwork is in order. Also, remember that formal (and required) training in the Transition Assistance Programs? A better documented case equals a more likely to be approved case.

Additionally, electronic records make it far easier for the average person to recall service medical records. Actual records of something that happened with dates showing the injury occurred while in service also correlates to a greater likelihood of being approved.

Something else to think about: you've noted that "roughly 30% of all living U.S. veterans have a service-connected disability, exactly doubling the 15% rate recorded in 2008. Post-9/11 veterans are significantly more likely to apply for and receive benefits". I'm not sure if you've been taking notes, but I can tell you as someone who served from 1986 to 2016, there was far more realistic training (and thus opportunities for non-combat, yet service related injuries) and a great deal more "up close and personal" contacts with bad guys who meant you harm, whether you in a combat MOS or not (and how many combat train guys also bumped into IEDs?) between, say, to pick a random selection of dates where I was actively serving, between 2002 and 2016 than between 1986 and 2001. So not only were we more likely to have service connected injuries, we were very well trained (and formally encouraged) in how to apply.

In other words, and all emotions aside, the statistics you're throwing out should only be surprising to someone who is not keeping up with current events. That doesn't mean fraud does not exist... it's never difficult to find someone who's trying to game the system. It's simply stating that throwing out numbers without possible explanation for the numbers shows either an effort to find statistics that support a predetermined conclusion, or simple intellectual laziness and incuriosity as to what could explain the statistics.

My father was in Vietnam from 1967-1969 straight, except for the time he was in Japan & Hawaii for R&R , has a fried back from a couple helicopter crashes and a plane wreck
And he has never been to the VA , must be a generational thing because my wife’s grandfather landed in Normandy, and was in the battle of the bulge, and into Germany
Suffered terrible PTSD and physical pain, mostly deaf , and never once had a VA visit.
Maybe they were just tougher or didnt expect entitlement?
Or the VA care was subpar, ? Or saw/ new people who were in more need of care?
But they came home and got a job and just got to work.

 

[Red Leg]

My father was in Vietnam from 1967-1969 straight, except for the time he was in Japan & Hawaii for R&R , has a fried back from a couple helicopter crashes and a plane wreck
And he has never been to the VA , must be a generational thing because my wife’s grandfather landed in Normandy, and was in the battle of the bulge, and into Germany
Suffered terrible PTSD and physical pain, mostly deaf , and never once had a VA visit.
Maybe they were just tougher or didnt expect entitlement?
Or the VA care was subpar, ? Or saw/ new people who were in more need of care?
But they came home and got a job and just got to work.

The vast majority of the people receiving disability today have also found a job and just got to work. The fact that our nation finally believes that those patriots are also deserving of some recognition for what was done to their health and quality of life through such service is long overdue as evidenced by your grandfather and father.

 

[roverandbrew]

My father was in Vietnam from 1967-1969 straight, except for the time he was in Japan & Hawaii for R&R , has a fried back from a couple helicopter crashes and a plane wreck
And he has never been to the VA , must be a generational thing because my wife’s grandfather landed in Normandy, and was in the battle of the bulge, and into Germany
Suffered terrible PTSD and physical pain, mostly deaf , and never once had a VA visit.
Maybe they were just tougher or didnt expect entitlement?
Or the VA care was subpar, ? Or saw/ new people who were in more need of care?
But they came home and got a job and just got to work.

I think there is a generational difference to a certain point. I can say Vietnam and GWOT for a lot of people are apples to oranges. I did not do my one or two tours and come home to start a new career at 21. Lots of us did the entire 20 years of the war. Imagine a Vietnam veteran saying I did 8 or 9 or 10 combat tours.

 

[Betterinthebush]

But they came home and got a job and just got to work

I wonder; if they came home from that job and found their house burning to the ground, if they would expect their insurance to cover the loss and rebuild? Or, would they have just sucked it up, go get a second job and get to work rebuilding themselves?

Comparing generations is nonsense. The spirit of the American fighting man is the same regardless of when a person was born. I guarantee you that the American Civil War veterans would never begrudge the WWII veterans for getting the GI Bill.

Fighting men and women volunteered to serve. It’s a choice borne out of a sense of duty, honor and tradition. Giving everything up to life and limb in thousands of cases. I believe that they’re woefully under compensated for many of the traumas they have suffered.

 

[318AE]

My father was in Vietnam from 1967-1969 straight, except for the time he was in Japan & Hawaii for R&R , has a fried back from a couple helicopter crashes and a plane wreck
And he has never been to the VA , must be a generational thing because my wife’s grandfather landed in Normandy, and was in the battle of the bulge, and into Germany
Suffered terrible PTSD and physical pain, mostly deaf , and never once had a VA visit.
Maybe they were just tougher or didnt expect entitlement?
Or the VA care was subpar, ? Or saw/ new people who were in more need of care?
But they came home and got a job and just got to work.

We had segregated units when your grandfather (and my four uncles who had terrible, under treated “shell shock”) served, correct? Sounds like a lot has changed for the better over the generations. My great grandfather was in the civil war, fighting for Texas (the confederacy). I doubt it’s relevant to bring that into the conversation either.

 

[cwpayton]

I wonder; if they came home from that job and found their house burning to the ground, if they would expect their insurance to cover the loss and rebuild? Or, would they have just sucked it up, go get a second job and get to work rebuilding themselves?

Comparing generations is nonsense. The spirit of the American fighting man is the same regardless of when a person was born. I guarantee you that the American Civil War veterans would never begrudge the WWII veterans for getting the GI Bill.

Fighting men and women volunteered to serve. It’s a choice borne out of a sense of duty, honor and tradition. Giving everything up to life and limb in thousands of cases. I believe that they’re woefully under compensated for many of the traumas they have suffered.

I think what Im hearing Pilar say is they were a different generation experientially, times were different to them, no television ,no attitude of somebody owes me something, no free lunch, except of course the great depression when 100s of 1000s were out of work. and the WPA work conservation program was launched. My father started work at 13 for Sinclair oil co. with a team of horses pulling pipe for an oil pipeline in Oklahoma, I dont think alot of 13 year olds could do a similar thing, tough times , makes tough mental attitudes , but same people. Today alot of 18 year olds dont qualify for the military because theyre so overweight and out of shape , they now offer pre enlistment " physical classes.
,

 

[Aaron N]

I think a good takeaway from the last few pages of this thread is the importance of us men to stop being stubborn. Asking for help is not a sign of weakness, neither is looking after your body. Get your checkups, deal with your mental health, nip your issues in the bud before they spiral. And most importantly LOOK OUT FOR EACH OTHER

 

[roverandbrew]

I think what Im hearing Pilar say is they were a different generation experientially, times were different to them, no television ,no attitude of somebody owes me something, no free lunch, except of course the great depression when 100s of 1000s were out of work. and the WPA work conservation program was launched. My father started work at 13 for Sinclair oil co. with a team of horses pulling pipe for an oil pipeline in Oklahoma, I dont think alot of 13 year olds could do a similar thing, tough times , makes tough mental attitudes , but same people. Today alot of 18 year olds dont qualify for the military because theyre so overweight and out of shape , they now offer pre enlistment " physical classes.
,

I will agree as a whole our society is less physical than the past. We are overweight and comfort can be a neurotoxin. Most Americans live an easier life than prior generations. From the war fighter at the tip of the spear perspective, I know we do far more than any generation before us. We fight / fought harder with more recorded valorous acts on a daily basis. Valor awards now are often harder to have processed than prior generations. A soldier in Vietnam could not imagine banging out multiple raids a night, 7 days a week. For months on end.

 

[Alistair]

As lots of americans are in debt the inflation will actually helps to eat part of the debt. Inflation isn`t always bad. On the other hand those who have a huge pension will experience their purchase power from their saving are becomming weaker.

In generel one cannot suspect DT for creating a long term masterplans. His administration is merely an ad Hoc administration. DT can claim all the degrees in the world but he still acts as an encyclopedia of stupidity with new expanded editions published every month.

To point 1, there's a more obvious benefit to a bit of inflation.

The US is hopelessly indebted as a nation.

There's no way in hell any administration can meaningfully pay it down, or cut costs, or mitigate the interest payments. That'd take both competence, and a long term strategy, things which no administration has achieved in my lifetime.

What they can do however, is massively debase the currency that debt is owed in.

In real terms, the portion of the US national debt that was held this time last year has shrunk by 10%+ in the last 12 months. Not because any was paid, but because the dollar has weakened. It'll take a lot less gold, or stock, or housing, or euros to pay it off today than in 2024.

The US can afford to do that due to its soft power investments in the last 60 years which locked in their currency as the global reserve.

People can't bail, there isn't enough liquidity in non dollar denominated vehicles for them to escape into.

So they get screwed, and the us survives.

Rich Americans don't care either. No one with real wealth is stupid enough to hold a majority cash position, and inflation just drives up real asset prices.

Poor Americans do get hurt as wage growth lags cost of living increases, but no administration really cares about them anyway.

 

[cwpayton]

If I may offer an additional bit of math to add to the startling for some realization there has been an increase in disability applications. Since 911, approximately 4.4 million Americans participated in uniform in the Global War on Terrorism. The last time the military experienced such a surge of combat related employment of the armed forces was Vietnam. As you note the mid-seventies through 2001 was a different universe.

Secondly, medical science has advanced just a tad since the Second World War. The Agent Orange fiasco following the Vietnam War put a bright light on the potential risks of employing certain technology without fully understanding its effects. As a result, the VA has been far more proactive in determining certain environmental or location factors are presumptive of long term medical issues than in less informed decades. As Agent Orange also demonstrated, it is not only the right thing to do, but is also likely less expensive and socially divisive than battling class action suits by one's own veterans.

That, doing the right thing with respect for veterans, was also been behind the continuing effort by DOD to ensure that veterans' health issues were recognized and addressed. As you note, when I retired in 2003, no one was interested in my skin cancer, permanently perforated eardrum, or chronic breathing issues. By the time I applied for review two decades latter, repeated exposure to Middle Eastern sun, artillery concussion, and a pollutant rich atmosphere carried significant presumptive weight in an evaluation.

Finally, the existence of Veteran Support Officers in many states have been a Godsend to veterans trying to navigate the bureaucracy of the VA claims process. Applications that formerly were rejected on technicalities are now successfully adjudicated.

So yes, @rookhawk , thankfully something else is finally going on, and you can not imagine how frustrating it is to a veteran to have someone with zero direct experience in the underlying issues pointing a finger and assuming fraud.

Something to add about Agent orange, my x father-in law, did 2 nam tours ,and died at I think 55, or58, of cancer throughout his entire body from agent orange which he handled alot , HE never once complained and never was on or ask for any disability.so theres one who didnt game the system. he now resides in the cemetery by camp Roberts NGB Salt Lake Utah.
Another vet acquaintance of mine lost both legs in Afghanistan, right below the hips, last time I talked to him 3 years ago , he was sitting in motorized wheel chair watching the "shoot". He said ya know THE first 2 0r 3 years I got alot of support and offers to do things, now 10 years out at home I crawl around on the floor like an animal with out my Prosthesis legs on. His name is Clint t. you can catch him on "black rifle coffee" vets, you tube.
,

 

[pilar]

I think what Im hearing Pilar say is they were a different generation experientially, times were different to them, no television ,no attitude of somebody owes me something, no free lunch, except of course the great depression when 100s of 1000s were out of work. and the WPA work conservation program was launched. My father started work at 13 for Sinclair oil co. with a team of horses pulling pipe for an oil pipeline in Oklahoma, I dont think alot of 13 year olds could do a similar thing, tough times , makes tough mental attitudes , but same people. Today alot of 18 year olds dont qualify for the military because theyre so overweight and out of shape , they now offer pre enlistment " physical classes.
,

Correct! I never meant anything disrespectful or disparaging to modern day veterans !
Hopefully our government will continue to implement and improve support to those who served .

 

[Mekaniks]

I think there is some confusion regarding types of disabilities.
A military disability is different and separate from a Social Security Disability with very different criteria and rules.
Most military disabilities allow the individual to work without income restriction. The notion that people who have military disabilities are intentionally refusing to return to work in order retain their military benefit payments and “game the system” is largely incorrect.

 

[rookhawk]

I think there is some confusion regarding types of disabilities.
A military disability is different and separate from a Social Security Disability with very different criteria and rules.
Most military disabilities allow the individual to work without income restriction. The notion that people who have military disabilities are intentionally refusing to return to work in order retain their military benefit payments and “game the system” is largely incorrect.

@Mekaniks there are two things afoot.

1.) We are seeing rapid, rapid increase of VA disability rates over the last 2-3 years. 34% of all veterans are now disabled. At face value, its just a gigantic ratio of the total veterens.

2.) The one-two punch is that VA disability now fast-tracks Social Security SSDI applications. It's the SSDI that prohibits any meaningful work, I believe it caps the recipient at $1600 a month in earnings.

I have no issue with soliders and sailors being taken care of. I have no issue of increasing military pensions that in aggregate, they deserve. I do have concerns at the rapid increase of disability payments as it rhymes with the types of entitlement abuse we're seeing across the broader society.

We can revisit this thread in a year or two and see if it will raise eyebrows when we're at a 44% or 50% disability rate.

What I find extra troubling is that the non-combat MOS seem to be receiving disability benefits at a fairly high proportion of the total recipients. Sure, occupational safety can cause injuries, but our non-combat veterans are becoming disabled at a far higher rate than our skilled trades like carpentry, HVAC, electrical, plumbing, and heavy equipment operators.

I realize we have a lot of veterans on this forum and most of the readers are Republicans. If it was any other type of entitlement I think all of us would have concerns about rapidly increasing recipient rates. I encourage us to be concerned of potential fraud and abuse of all our systems, probably none more sacred than the type of "stolen valor" when someone games money out of a system designed to protect our genuinely injured military personelle.

 

[cwpayton]

Possibly some dont realize "being in the military" is not just a job , its a life, 24/7 ,365. how you eat =[weight] dress think , act and respond is all subject to UCMJ or Tradition, or your commanding Officer or senior NCO. You just dont get it unless you served. I saw so many of my enlisted friends working 2nd jobs to make ends meet, and it wasnt because they made to much money in the military.

 

[Red Leg]

@Mekaniks there are two things afoot.

1.) We are seeing rapid, rapid increase of VA disability rates over the last 2-3 years. 34% of all veterans are now disabled. At face value, its just a gigantic ratio of the total veterens.

2.) The one-two punch is that VA disability now fast-tracks Social Security SSDI applications. It's the SSDI that prohibits any meaningful work, I believe it caps the recipient at $1600 a month in earnings.

With respect to item one. What is you point? As I and others have reiterated, what is provided is a percentage of disability rating that addresses permanent service related medical issues that may or may not affect the ability to earn a wage but can absolutely affect quality of life . I rather suspect the actual percentage of veterans with some sort of permanent service related disability is actually closer to 75-80%. Loud rough handling of the human body results in that sort of wear and tear. Meaningful compensation for service related disability really begins at 60%. At that level a veteran with spouse and child receives $1663 monthly - not exactly a live on the beach in Acapulco stipend.

If a person qualifies for SSDI - a totally different set of qualifications which are indeed tied directly to earning ability, why is that in your mind a bad thing those applications can be handled expeditiously? I assume from your perspective we should put those Vets at the end of the line where they belong in spite of having a significant file of medically adjudicated physical or mental issues?

Finally, I would rather you not be sermonize me about actual veterans and your assumptions about stolen valor.

Kipling was absolutely correct when he penned "Tommy."

 

[mdwest]

I know we do far more than any generation before us. We fight / fought harder with more recorded valorous acts on a daily basis. Valor awards now are often harder to have processed than prior generations. A soldier in Vietnam could not imagine banging out multiple raids a night, 7 days a week. For months on end.

Zero doubt in my mind on this..

My generation needed to be mentally and physically hard... but we didnt necessarily have to be all that smart..

Your generation, with all of the advanced tech thats out there, and with the changes in TTPs, etc.. still has to be mentally and physically hard.. but also has to bring a whole lot of smarts to the table..

The newer generation is capable of so much more than the older generation was capable of.. and for 20 years they demonstrated a willingness to actually go and do it... day after day.. month after month.. and keep on doing it year after year..

Most people (myself included) lose sight of the fact that there are people that ran straight to a recruiters office on 9/12/2001... retired 20 years later.. And literally spent their entire career at war (Afghanistan officially ended in August 2021).. they genuinely dont know what a peace time military looks like at all.. theyve never seen it, never worked in it, never had to function in it, etc..

20 years of deployments.. even as a cook or a light wheel mechanic.. I can assure you takes a toll on the body..

even for a cook, thats a whole lot of weapons qualifications, a whole lot of annual road marches, etc... and if they were in between 2002-2010 its almost a given the FOB they were sitting on in Iraq or Afghanistan (over multiple tours) got hit with mortars, katushyas, VBIED's, or all of the above at least a few times..

they spent countless months away from their families.. missed childrens births and birthdays.. etc.. etc..

So yes.. even those behind the lines support guys have issues.. physical and mental health are effected..

its easy to say "they knew what they were getting into when they signed up"... but.. did they? did anyone on 9/12/2001 envision 20 years of war?

Im an old soldier and I work in the defense industry.. if anyone could have looked into their personal crystal ball and see it, it should have been me... and I certainly didnt envision it initially..

so if the cook has a fucked up back from carrying heavy crap around for 20 years, suffered a minor TBI from a roadside blast he took on a deployment, has constant ringing in his ears from a number of different loud noise exposures, etc..etc.. what do you think is going on with the guy that spent 20 years in an airborne unit as an infantryman? or the special forces guy? or the loader on an M1 Abrams? etc..

Its a pretty safe bet that 100% of the people that do more than a single tour these days have some measure of service related (VA standard) disability no matter what their job was.. and its a reasonable bet that a pretty substantial number of them deal with some degree of PTSD..

The 21st century army is not the same animal that the 20th century army was... OF COURSE a lot more of the younger generation is claiming VA disability... not only is the mindset different, the actual exposure to harmful action is different..

 

[Mekaniks]

@Mekaniks there are two things afoot.

1.) We are seeing rapid, rapid increase of VA disability rates over the last 2-3 years. 34% of all veterans are now disabled. At face value, its just a gigantic ratio of the total veterens.

2.) The one-two punch is that VA disability now fast-tracks Social Security SSDI applications. It's the SSDI that prohibits any meaningful work, I believe it caps the recipient at $1600 a month in earnings.

I have no issue with soliders and sailors being taken care of. I have no issue of increasing military pensions that in aggregate, they deserve. I do have concerns at the rapid increase of disability payments as it rhymes with the types of entitlement abuse we're seeing across the broader society.

We can revisit this thread in a year or two and see if it will raise eyebrows when we're at a 44% or 50% disability rate.

What I find extra troubling is that the non-combat MOS seem to be receiving disability benefits at a fairly high proportion of the total recipients. Sure, occupational safety can cause injuries, but our non-combat veterans are becoming disabled at a far higher rate than our skilled trades like carpentry, HVAC, electrical, plumbing, and heavy equipment operators.

I realize we have a lot of veterans on this forum and most of the readers are Republicans. If it was any other type of entitlement I think all of us would have concerns about rapidly increasing recipient rates. I encourage us to be concerned of potential fraud and abuse of all our systems, probably none more sacred than the type of "stolen valor" when someone games money out of a system designed to protect our genuinely injured military personelle.

We have to close the "cracks" somehow.... By that, imo EVERY veteran should be able to return to civilian life with the support that they need (combat or not)
We have seen how not supporting them works out, with a large portion of our nations homeless being former military that are living on the streets and self medicating....That should be unacceptable as a civilized nation. And it is fiscally unsustainable.....

 

[Altitude sickness]

He said at the time it was part of that course. I am not going to argue about the specifics as it is out of my area of expertise. I also am not going to ask him if he bought it inappropriately.

I don’t think it’s worth bringing up with him either.

 

[rookhawk]

We have to close the "cracks" somehow.... By that, imo EVERY veteran should be able to return to civilian life with the support that they need (combat or not)
We have seen how not supporting them works out, with a large portion of our nations homeless being former military that are living on the streets and self medicating....That should be unacceptable as a civilized nation. And it is fiscally unsustainable.....

Now we're getting somewhere I can support. I have zero problems paying the military better and providing more service-to-private-sector employment support. I have no problem increasing pension rates for veterans either.

I can be both for the armed services and vehemently against fraud in our country. Unjustly acquired disability payments aren't meant to make up for otherwise lousy GI benefits. We can both stop fraud and also better compensate GIs, its not either/or/neither.