Politics

[RLD]

What free ride?? Please explain, I'm confused.

AJ

I think mdwest was suggesting that Europe should entice Trump to meet his NATO obligations by offering to pay some or all of their costs of doing so. If I am wrong about that, my comment makes no sense.

 

[WAB]

My understanding is that Venezuela is years away from really getting up to speed.

That is absolutely the case. Material, technical capability and manpower are all rate limiters. The folks I worked with at PDVSA in the ‘80’s were highly capable. They mysteriously dropped off the radar with the regime change, draw your own conclusions. You don’t replace that capability quickly or easily.

It is not as simple as importing capability as the industry is short globally. When I was running a refinery in Alaska in the early 2000’s, the average age of oil workers in the state was 57. Replacement rates cannot match retirement rates. Kids don’t want these types of jobs anymore. They want to sit behind a keyboard in an air conditioned office.

 

[mdwest]

Russia is burning..

The Ukranians are targeting Russian oil infrastructure hard.. theyve hit 21 of Russias 38 major refineries in the last 12 months..

Its taken a lot of effort and work on the part of the Ukranians.. I think the total number of attacks has been in the high 60's..

theyve also taken down 3 pipelines.. 3 oil export terminals.. 3 storage facilities.. 2 petrochemical plants.. and 2 oil related distribution/logistics hubs..

I would imaging all of that is having a pretty significant impact on the Russian economy..

 

[RLD]

Where exactly is the free ride youre referencing? If you talk to the average American (left or right leaning... doesnt matter) they are of the opinion that Europe has been getting the free ride for decades.. the only difference is the leftists think this is ok.. that the free ride makes the Europeans "like" the US, and there are benefits to that.. and the right wingers no longer care if Europe "likes" the US or not.. they arent interested in buying friends any longer..

I think we'll have to disagree on the bribing the bully... I think Trump (and many others) see it as a bit of payback.. again, look back to 2016 and the way Trump was treated by Europe.. look at @PARA45 attached pic in the post above...

Kick the big kid on the block in the balls... when he beats your ass for it, thats not being a bully... you were just a dumbass that thought you'd get away with piss poor behavior because you always have in the past.. and you got the shit kicked out of you for it...

Europe and Canada absolutely failed to meet their obligations for years. But that is no excuse for the U.S. to want a subsidy now. The U.S. never subsidized the European defense industry, they were just fairly passive as they watched it atrophy.

Trump wants bribes because his feeling were hurt? He should grow up if he wants to be an effective leader of a great nation. And Europe never kicked Trump in the balls, that would be like imposing punitive tariffs or removing him from organizations or something, which they never did. If he wants their respect, perhaps he should act in a way that earns their respect. If he doesn't want to be laughed at frequently then he should stop acting like a clown. Trump's problem, and the intellectual failing of the people he has built around him is they only see a stick and have seemingly no idea who to work with a carrot. All he seems to try to do is to scare/punish people into doing what he wants rather than making them want to work with him. A competent administration needs both tools. Trump seemingly is only one kind of tool. Or did I mean only has one kind of tool?

 

[mdwest]

I think mdwest was suggesting that Europe should entice Trump to meet his NATO obligations by offering to pay some or all of their costs of doing so. If I am wrong about that, my comment makes no sense.

No.. What I was doing is giving @Pondoro 's comment some creedence..

Look at the REFORGER information in prior posts... the US pays billions annually participating in Europe defense exercises.. and once those exercises are over, it pays hundreds of millions doing things like fixing roads, repairing fences, replacing chickens and cows, etc..

US troops in Europe used to be seen as a simbiotic relationship.. Europe gets the benefit of US defense.. and the US gets to keep its primary advasary pushed into a box..

The US however eats ALL of the costs.. Europe does not pay for anything associated with the US presence.. but reaps all of its benefits.. (to include getting brand new roads paved every year, and the benefit of tens of thousands of people spending hundreds of millions on the local economy, etc etc)..


Today Russia is NOT seen as the primary advasary to the US.. at best it runs a very distant second place.. (I'd venture to say that many Americans see them as 3rd place, behind the Chinese and the Iranians)..

The relationship with Europe in regards to defense against Russia isnt nearly as simbiotic as it used to be... Europe wants/needs the relationship more than the US does...

So its unreasonble for them to start footing more of the bill that is specific to the defense of Europe?

 

[mdwest]

Europe and Canada absolutely failed to meet their obligations for years. But that is no excuse for the U.S. to want a subsidy now. The U.S. never subsidized the European defense industry, they were just fairly passive as they watched it atrophy.

Trump wants bribes because his feeling were hurt? He should grow up if he wants to be an effective leader of a great nation. And Europe never kicked Trump in the balls, that would be like imposing punitive tariffs or removing him from organizations or something, which they never did. If he wants their respect, perhaps he should act in a way that earns their respect. If he doesn't want to be laughed at frequently then he should stop acting like a clown. Trump's problem, and the intellectual failing of the people he has built around him is they only see a stick and have seemingly no idea who to work with a carrot. All he seems to try to do is to scare/punish people into doing what he wants rather than making them want to work with him. A competent administration needs both tools. Trump seemingly is only one kind of tool. Or did I mean only has one kind of tool?

Who said anything about a subsidy?

What was said was pick up a portion of the costs directly associated with your own defense..

Want an armored division and a mech infantry division to come over and participate in a major war game specific to the defense of Europe against Russian invasion? how about not charging the US to replace your bridges and roads once the exercise that you asked for is complete?

How about Operation Atlantic Resolve in 2022, where the US sent the entire 4th Infantry Division (heavy mech) plus elements of the 1st Armored Division, 1st Infantry Division, to central Europe in response to Russias invasion of Ukraine..

Europe cant defend itself.. by your own admissions Canada and Europe failed to meet its obligations for decades.. and thats supposed to be a good enough excuse for why they dont pick up some of the costs related to their own defense now and maybe pay to fix their own roads and bridges as needed?

No one said anything about hurt feelings.. what was said was Europe behaved badly.. and Europe is now paying the price... who gives 2 shits about feelings?

Europes feelings are now hurt.. you hear Europeans crying daily about how bad the orange man is.. perhaps they should have thought about that for the 4 years Trump was last in office and the 4 years Biden was in office.. because Trump (and most conservative Americans) could care less about their hurt feelings..

 

[Aaron N]

Billions believe otherwise.

Well obviously they’re wrong!

Endless darkness and silence sound pretty damn good to me though

 

[Tanks]

That is absolutely the case. Material, technical capability and manpower are all rate limiters. The folks I worked with at PDVSA in the ‘80’s were highly capable. They mysteriously dropped off the radar with the regime change, draw your own conclusions. You don’t replace that capability quickly or easily.

Yep, in the past I have worked with engineering firms from Venezuela there, and also brought them here to the States as contractors. Those guys are gone.

 

[RLD]

Europes feelings are now hurt.. you hear Europeans crying daily about how bad the orange man is.. perhaps they should have thought about that for the 4 years Trump was last in office and the 4 years Biden was in office.. because Trump (and most conservative Americans) could care less about their hurt feelings..

The orange man is bad. Bad policy, bad conduct, bad ideas. Interfering in elections, trying to interfere in internal European policies and regulations. Like I said, if he doesn't want people laughing at him he should stop acting like a clown. Seriously, did you Kennedy trying to explain Trump math the other day? Brutal, just brutal.

Trump is the most mercurial and petty leader I can currently see on the world stage. Hyperbole, ego and hurt feelings seem to drive his actions more than anyone else I can think of right now.

And NATO is giving the United States a break already. Their portion of the Common Funded Budget has been reduced in the last two years, and some countries already pay hosting costs towards U.S. bases.

Trump's treatment of NATO has caused ground breaking changes in how France will build and use its nuclear arsenal and I don't particularly see that as a good thing.

 

[mdwest]

Yep, in the past I have worked with engineering firms from Venezuela there, and also brought them here to the States as contractors. Those guys are gone.

My last trip to Venezuela was shortly before Chavez decided he was anti American (1999).. I spent some time in Caracas and in Maracaibo.. and then quite a bit of time in the more rural areas of the Zulia state along the Colombian border..

a US firm, Washington Group International had pretty substantial mining operations there and we were doing site visits, checking in on the engineers, etc..

They were running a really tight operation down there.. the WGI executives were very impressed with the quality of work, design, and execution of things...

I maintained contact with a handful of guys at the mines after we left.. by late 2002 (just 3 years later) all of them were gone.. WGI held onto the ownership of the mines, but they were for the most part inoperable after that.. in 2011 Chavez nationalized the mining industry asnd seized foreign owned mines.. My understanding is those mines havent produced 1/10th of what they were producing prior to being taken over by the government..

Its going to take a long time for Venezela to get back on its feet overall.. much of the skilled labor across almost all industries have been gone for more than a generation..

 

[PARA45]

The orange man is bad. Bad policy, bad conduct, bad ideas. Interfering in elections, trying to interfere in internal European policies and regulations. Like I said, if he doesn't want people laughing at him he should stop acting like a clown. Seriously, did you Kennedy trying to explain Trump math the other day? Brutal, just brutal.

Trump is the most mercurial and petty leader I can currently see on the world stage. Hyperbole, ego and hurt feelings seem to drive his actions more than anyone else I can think of right now.

And NATO is giving the United States a break already. Their portion of the Common Funded Budget has been reduced in the last two years, and some countries already pay hosting costs towards U.S. bases.

Trump's treatment of NATO has caused ground breaking changes in how France will build and use its nuclear arsenal and I don't particularly see that as a good thing.

Oh man, I can't wait to read @mdwest reply. This is going to be good.

 

[mdwest]

The orange man is bad. Bad policy, bad conduct, bad ideas. Interfering in elections, trying to interfere in internal European policies and regulations. Like I said, if he doesn't want people laughing at him he should stop acting like a clown. Seriously, did you Kennedy trying to explain Trump math the other day? Brutal, just brutal.

Trump is the most mercurial and petty leader I can currently see on the world stage. Hyperbole, ego and hurt feelings seem to drive his actions more than anyone else I can think of right now.

And NATO is giving the United States a break already. Their portion of the Common Funded Budget has been reduced in the last two years, and some countries already pay hosting costs towards U.S. bases.

Trump's treatment of NATO has caused ground breaking changes in how France will build and use its nuclear arsenal and I don't particularly see that as a good thing.

So what?

You dont like his policies... you dont like his ideas...

So what?

Do you really think the average American cares? (I can assure you, they do not)...

Which is exactly my point..

So what if he is mercurial and petty? The world has a choice.. learn to deal with it.. or learn to live without the benefits of a relationship with the US... you cant have it both ways... Its pretty much guaranteed that Trump isnt changing... and.. by yours and several others admission, Europe has been wrong on many fronts in the past.. so.. perhaps they (and Canada) need to consider change? Or at least come up with a better methodology for dealing with it other than crying and bitching and moaning..

Or again, dont.. but then dont act surprised when there are consequences..

NATO is giving the US a break? By finally doing what it committed to do for decades but refused to do prior? Thats not a break.. thats merely honoring a commitment that you refused to honor for years... and frankly theyre only doing it now because they werent left with another option.. Trump wont play the historical game with them any longer.. they will step up and re-arm and do their part.. or they will be left defenseless...

and again.. Trumps treatment of NATO? How about we look at NATO's treatment of the US? Youre upset because the bad orange man has been acting like a bull in a china shop for the last 16 months.. but fail to accept that for 75 years Europe allowed itself to be reliant on the US, and for 35 years of that time Europe and Canada allowed their militaries become complete shit shows (starting at the end of the Cold War in 1991) .. which is what has brought on the bull in the china shop..

How about Europe and Canada take some responsibility for its actions (or complete lack of action when it was necessaary) and unfuck itself first.. then you can worry about how the US will unfuck itself..

"weve been doing that for the last 16 months" is hardly an acceptable response or excuse..

 

[PARA45]

 

[RLD]

So what?

You dont like his policies... you dont like his ideas...

So what?

Do you really think the average American cares? (I can assure you, they do not)...

Which is exactly my point..

So what if he is mercurial and petty? The world has a choice.. learn to deal with it.. or learn to live without the benefits of a relationship with the US... you cant have it both ways... Its pretty much guaranteed that Trump isnt changing... and.. by yours and several others admission, Europe has been wrong on many fronts in the past.. so.. perhaps they (and Canada) need to consider change? Or at least come up with a better methodology for dealing with it other than crying and bitching and moaning..

Or again, dont.. but then dont act surprised when there are consequences..

NATO is giving the US a break? By finally doing what it committed to do for decades but refused to do prior? Thats not a break.. thats merely honoring a commitment that you refused to honor for years... and frankly theyre only doing it now because they werent left with another option.. Trump wont play the historical game with them any longer.. they will step up and re-arm and do their part.. or they will be left defenseless...

and again.. Trumps treatment of NATO? How about we look at NATO's treatment of the US? Youre upset because the bad orange man has been acting like a bull in a china shop for the last 16 months.. but fail to accept that for 75 years Europe allowed itself to be reliant on the US, and for 35 years of that time Europe and Canada allowed their militaries become complete shit shows (starting at the end of the Cold War in 1991) .. which is what has brought on the bull in the china shop..

How about Europe and Canada take some responsibility for its actions (or complete lack of action when it was necessaary) and unfuck itself first.. then you can worry about how the US will unfuck itself..

"weve been doing that for the last 16 months" is hardly an acceptable response or excuse..

You were upset that europeans were saying the "orange man is bad." He is bad. You are upset that europeans were speaking the truth. Very strange.

I think the current admin's policies are piss poor and unsuccessful. They hurt America both practically and in reputation. It is harm that will be hard to undo.

The best thing Trump has done has been to get other NATO partners to step up their militaries. But that isn't going to cause Europe to subsidize U.S. military operations.

Canada and Europe, and the rest of the world are changing, in ways that will not work well for the United States, or the Western alliance in general in the long term. Trump missed his opportunity to manage that change properly. Had he been forceful but stable and rational, and added some carrot to his stick, he could have done a great deal of good. Now Europe and Canada and finishing free trade deals with India, and China are licking their chops over the parts of the world Trump treats like shit. What do you think all of those African countries are doing now that Trump has treated them poorly?

The U.S. car is careening in all sorts of stupid directions. Biden was asleep at the wheel and now Trump is acting like a drunk driver.

Instead we have Steven Miller leading an administration that seems to want to throw away 100 years of U.S. achievements so a bunch of bitter old guys can feel like they have punked everyone on their perceived grievances list. That is going to end well.

 

[Betterinthebush]

Canada and Europe, and the rest of the world are changing, in ways that will not work well for the United States, or the Western alliance in general in the long term.

I agree. The general population in the USA are resisting the democratic socialist government system of the EU and (now) Canada that picks winners and losers and taxes everyone else into slavery.

Can’t stand the way Trump conducts business but I simply don’t care how other countries do business. Unless their business conflicts with our business, then I start to care. A little.

 

[mdwest]

You were upset that europeans were saying the "orange man is bad." He is bad. You are upset that europeans were speaking the truth. Very strange.

I think the current admin's policies are piss poor and unsuccessful. They hurt America both practically and in reputation. It is harm that will be hard to undo.

The best thing Trump has done has been to get other NATO partners to step up their militaries. But that isn't going to cause Europe to subsidize U.S. military operations.

Canada and Europe, and the rest of the world are changing, in ways that will not work well for the United States, or the Western alliance in general in the long term. Trump missed his opportunity to manage that change properly. Had he been forceful but stable and rational, and added some carrot to his stick, he could have done a great deal of good. Now Europe and Canada and finishing free trade deals with India, and China are licking their chops over the parts of the world Trump treats like shit. What do you think all of those African countries are doing now that Trump has treated them poorly?

The U.S. car is careening in all sorts of stupid directions. Biden was asleep at the wheel and now Trump is acting like a drunk driver.

Instead we have Steven Miller leading an administration that seems to want to throw away 100 years of U.S. achievements so a bunch of bitter old guys can feel like they have punked everyone on their perceived grievances list. That is going to end well.

thats where youre wrong...

Im not upset about anything... especially not that Europeans hate Trump..

If you've bothered to read any of my posts over the last 16 months you'd know that I find it ridiculous and comical..

Your OPINION is that the current admins policies are piss poor and unsuccessful.. and your OPINION is that they hurt the US both practically and in repuation...

Those are not facts.. there are merely the OPINIONS of someone that is NOT a US national.. and they are opinions not shared with many Americans..

So back to my earlier point... do you really think anyone cares?

Ive been hearing about how Canada and Europe is changing in ways that will not work well for the US.. but.. I have yet to see any of that come true as of yet.. in fact.. a year ago we were all hearing about how Tesla was going to bankrupt itself because of Musks relationship with Trump.. Tesla stock is sitting at $375 a share today.. which is quite a bit better than the $320 per share value that it was hovering around prior to the election... I keep hearing about how the tariffs are going to crush the US economy and how they are going to drive outrageous inflation.. but amazingly inflation in the US is sitting at about 3.3% this year.. which is about the same as it was all of last year.. which is significantly better than the 6% we had in 2024 prior to the election (and the 9% spike that hit the year prior to that)... I keep hearing about how the strait of Hormuz is going to kill the US economy.. and here we are with little to no impact other than an increase in fuel prices, which are already on the way back down (dropped $0.06 today nationally) and never rose to the same price that we were paying in 2024 prior to the election... and I keep hearing about how Europe and Canada relationships are damaged and will take forever to recover... but I hear that from Europeans and Canadians... what I hear from Americans is for the last 30+ years Europe and Canada actively participated in screwing the US, and that its time for a rebalancing..

and.. even more funny is... I keep hearing all of this from people that arent economists.. that on their best day cite known leftist economists.. on most days they cant do any better than citing the European or Canadian news outlets..

so again.. you think the US is a car careening in all sorts of stupid directions...

and I ask you.. why do you think any American cares about your opinion?

 

[AJ Peacock]

You were upset that europeans were saying the "orange man is bad." He is bad. You are upset that europeans were speaking the truth. Very strange.

I think the current admin's policies are piss poor and unsuccessful. They hurt America both practically and in reputation. It is harm that will be hard to undo.

The best thing Trump has done has been to get other NATO partners to step up their militaries. But that isn't going to cause Europe to subsidize U.S. military operations.

Canada and Europe, and the rest of the world are changing, in ways that will not work well for the United States, or the Western alliance in general in the long term. Trump missed his opportunity to manage that change properly. Had he been forceful but stable and rational, and added some carrot to his stick, he could have done a great deal of good. Now Europe and Canada and finishing free trade deals with India, and China are licking their chops over the parts of the world Trump treats like shit. What do you think all of those African countries are doing now that Trump has treated them poorly?

The U.S. car is careening in all sorts of stupid directions. Biden was asleep at the wheel and now Trump is acting like a drunk driver.

Instead we have Steven Miller leading an administration that seems to want to throw away 100 years of U.S. achievements so a bunch of bitter old guys can feel like they have punked everyone on their perceived grievances list. That is going to end well.

Seriously???

We don't care if Europeans are upset or speak 'THEIR' truth.

"piss poor and unsuccessful", good for Canada and all non-US citizens then. HipHip Hooray for you. I 'a US Citizen' see it exactly 180degrees from how you see it. Just because you are looking at this exact moment in time and unable to see what change is being made long time (or perhaps ignoring it). ???

I truly don't care if anybody 'likes' us, or if they feel bad. We are tired of carrying the world, we'll take care of our hemisphere and be happy to help those that want to pitch in.

It's like the parents that tell their 30 year old that they have to pay for their own car insurance and no longer have access to the 'family' credit cards. It's time to grow up and stand on your own feet (that is meant toward Canada, Europe ... )

Just the way I feel.

AJ

 

[PARA45]

I see a lot of this

 

[LivingTheDream]

Your OPINION is that the current admins policies are piss poor and unsuccessful.. and your OPINION is that they hurt the US both practically and in repuation...

Those are not facts.. there are merely the OPINIONS of someone that is NOT a US national.. and they are opinions not shared with many Americans

I was going to post something similiar, the arguement being made was emotional and not logical.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Heard an interesting idea today over a morning crib game with the night watchman to the wharf.

“if immigrants were prohibited from voting for a period of 5-10 years after they received there citizenship and we called it a learning period to allow them to adjust to the North American societal system governments would likely be a lot more disconcerting about who they let into our country”

That from a man who himself is a Lebanese immigrant. He immigrated prior to the outbreak of the Lebanese civil war.