Nosler bullet problem 45 acp & others

[fourfive8]

A Lee Factory Crimp Die is a collet type die. All other crimping dies either have a fairly sharp shoulder or a long taper sizing section. A sizing die minus the decapping pin and neck expander can be used as a taper crimp die. Most seating dies have a fairly sharp shoulder for roll crimping which is very different from taper crimping. Roll crimping is used on cartridges that do not headspace on the case mouth. Taper crimping is used on cartridges, like most auto loader pistol cartridges, that headspace on the mouth. A Lee Factory Crimp Die is kind of a stepped roll crimp type die that can be used for auto loader pistol crimping if not over done and if the mouth is not crimped into a groove or cannelure in the bullet's shank.

Belling, if over done, may cause the bullet to tip sideways when first being contacted by the seating plug. If the nose shape of the bullet is not compatible with the seating plug shape, the bullet may remained tipped when entering the case mouth and cause damage to the mouth. A slight and short depth enlargement of the case mouth which is not funnel or bell shaped is the best overall because the bullet base will sit in the case mouth square and plumb to the case axis and not have a tendency to tip or cock at an angle which gives the best chance to start and remain straight during seating.

Again, all this just thinking out loud.

 

[sestoppelman]

Well, all technicalities aside. I do bell the case mouth and do use and like the LEE crimp die, it works for me.

 

[Shootist43]

I load all of my 45 Brass on a Dillon 1050. First off all of my brass (Starline) is 0.892" +/- .001 in length, I bell the mouth ever so slightly and use a Lee Taper Crimp Die. I try to hold the projectile as straight up as I can for as long as I can with the die pushing my finger and thumb off the bullet.

 

[fourfive8]

Yes, this is an odd problem that could be a bullet issue but that would be extremely rare. I too have loaded a bunch of 45 ACP with many types and brands of bullets both cast and jacketed. Autoloader pistol reloading is a slightly different "cat" but the 45 ACP, IMO, is one of the easier autoloader pistol calibers to reload. And like many here, never a problem, once the load set up was adjusted correctly. Back in a previous life I owned and carried a Mac 10. And shot a Thompson quite a bit. Those things do have an appetitive with a high feed bill! So yes, between that experience and the various Colts so chambered, have had some experience loading and shooting the 45 ACP.

Close up pics of the bullet base may tell. I think every possibility has been covered by all the cumulative experience in this thread so far. Digging back into the memory banks after looking at hundreds or thousands of boxes of factory jacketed bullets of all variety I seem to remember a lot or two that had a slight rim around the base. Almost a swaging sprue where the base plug in the factory swaging die was ever so slightly undersized or beveled causing a tiny, thin ring around the base. Overall those bullets give the appearance of a very flat base with no bevel around the edge. But, always good to see new challenges and issues because that is the learning process. It's also a reminder to pay attention to all things reloading. Very interested to see what the underlying issue is here.

 

[perttime]

...
Hornady HAP and Magnus .451 (.4505 - .4515) reloaded smoothly. Over the last year this is my second (and third yet to be opened) 250 count box of Nosler 45 ACP bullets I've used to reload. I had the same problem with the first box, I lost 30 - 40 cases reloading.
...

Did you load some other bullets between the first and second box of Nosler?

What machine are you loading on, and what exactly do you use for expanding?
Did you try increasing the bell?

 

[Ridge Runner]

Did you load some other bullets between the first and second box of Nosler?

What machine are you loading on, and what exactly do you use for expanding?
Did you try increasing the bell?

Machine is RCBS turret press.
Die Set is Lee Carbide 4 die set.
Bell is .452
Same set up previously loaded Hornady and Magnus bullets, ran out of the fore mentioned and started using the Noslers.
Reloading the last 250 cases of 1000 prepped cases. With no problems reloading the previous 750 cases.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Hopefully these pics can show the problem I am encountering with this box of Nosler bullets.

 

[fourfive8]

Don't know what I'm looking at. Need a little better resolution and focus. I see damage on one base, second from bottom pic. Is that case mouth damage during the seating process?

Here's the type of pic that may show the condition of the base. This is a 38 Hornady XTP

 

[sestoppelman]

Guessing photography isn't your profession? Only one pic really shows much and it doesn't really tell us much. But if I had to guess, I will stand by what I have said since the beginning. Not enough bell on the case mouths., or your cases are not expanding properly/are undersized.

 

[fourfive8]

I even tried to watch a few of the several available youtube tutorial videos on loading the 45 ACP to maybe recommend one and provide a link. I couldn't even sit through a minute of any one of them!! Every bubba thinks they are destined to take the place of Cecil B. Dimille. But I don't need to wonder why as there are plenty out there who crave for their 15 minutes of fame on the Maury Povich Show! All the ones I glanced at seemed to concentrate on the unimportant steps and skipped right over the important ones in between all the dead air "uhhs and yahs" and awful background music and on and on. No thanks! The handiest would be a SIMPLE production that was rehearsed a little with good video, including close-ups and good sound - Colorful, Bold and Simple!!! Load 2 or 3 rounds showing each step and the reasons for it. I don't need to watch someone load 50 rounds...... of anything- good grief !!! And I'm too old and tired to put any effort into making one.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I can't find why this isn't sorted by now. This is not .38-40 or something difficult.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Ok, hopefully I can discribe what you all should be able to see.....

Top pic: notice the ring..shinny line in the brass at the bullet end....that is the bulge in the brass caused by the bullet after it was seated into the case

Pics 2,3, 4 & 6: notice that shinny little line at the base of the bullet....that is the out of round portion/lip causing my reloading problems.

Pic 5: notice the base of the bullet. This is a result when the bullet doesn't seat into the case because of the abnormality of the bullet jacket. This bullet and several others like it crush one side of the case. Several other bullets that did seat, left a fine ring or piece of copper ring, copper shaving.

Similar to anyone who has loaded a black powder revolver would find a lead ring from a round ball after being seated into a cylinder chamber.

And quite right photography is not one of my professions. I had to use my Nikon camera to get the best close up photos I could to illustrate the problems.

The mouth of the case (the bell) measures .4523 - .4525. The bullets are suppose to be .451, reality .451 bullets generally run .4505 - .4517. Therefore the bell is plenty open enough, any more open and I will have a problem with the case going into the seating die, besides I haven't had any problems reloading Hornady, Magnus, or Remington bullets with my set up.

 

[perttime]

So, you have a "lip" on the bullet BEFORE you try to seat it?

Many cameras cannot focus if you go really close. Taking photos from a little further away can give better focus and definition.
-----
I'm sure I have more bell when loading pistol cartridges ( you state .451+ bullet - .452 bell).

 

[fourfive8]

The 9mms and 40s are the ones that commonly blow up guns if not done right. If for no other reason, the sheer size of the 45 makes it much easier, or should make it easier, and it is generally more well behaved running at a lower pressure than the 9 or 40. Even the 38-40 isn't bad if you take your time to set up right plus it's a rimmed cartridge making it somewhat more forgiving of case length and crimping. Actually when I was shooting a lot of single action, the 38-40 was one of my favorite cartridges for both the revolver and carbine.

If there is an enlarged ring around the base then yes it may cause some issues in starting the bullet. Never have seen it so bad as to affect loading or shooting though. You could probably call Nosler and send them a couple of examples along with the flattened box so they would have a lot # to reference. I wouldn't doubt they'd give some compensation or credit for replacement or send replacement.

Here's some pics of the steps for flaring and initial seating of 45 ACP. The exact depth of initial seating isn't critical as long as the bullet's entire base edge clears the mouth and the bullet sits squarely in the case before the seating plug engages the nose to complete the process.

1st pic shows amount of flare (bell) I have my die set for.
The black line shows the depth... about .1".

2nd pic shows sequence from top...
un flared case
bullet about to be initially seated into flared case
bullet initially seated into flared case, gravity only and bullet axis same as case
fully seated bullet after seating and taper crimping steps and ready to shoot

 

[sestoppelman]

Any half decent camera or phone camera will take really good pix these days, just have to be aware of what is in focus and what isn't. In this case all but one of your pix is focused on the background, not the subject.
But from your description, it sounds to me like you should not have even tried to load these reject bullets at all, but should have sent them right back to Nosler.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Send them to me...I'll load them and test them...

 

[CoElkHunter]

I de cap live primers all the time in my RCBS de capping die.

+1

 

[Ridge Runner]

UPDATE: THUS FAR..????..

I finished reloading the Nosler bullets from this 250 count box....results: 80 bullets were bad and I took a file to the base of them to knock off the excess copper jacket......ended up with 30 slightly "bulged" cartridges.

I had seriously considered not to open or even use the second box of Nosler bullets, but I did open the box and was expecting the same problems as the previous box, knock on wood, I have reloaded 80 rounds thus far with no problems.

Does anyone know why Blazer and Federal switched from large pistol primers to small pistol primers in 45 ACP? It's a real pain in the neck (ass) having to separate brass by primer size!!

 

[Forrest Halley]

Does anyone know why Blazer and Federal switched from large pistol primers to small pistol primers in 45 ACP? It's a real pain in the neck (ass) having to separate brass by primer size!!

Cost I am guessing or the availability/production of the large primers.

I usually reserve the small primers for lost brass competitions to pass along the good cheer.

It's not so bad once you build up a fleet of brass, but brass coming in as range pick up I treat as raw material and it gets sorted by caliber, head stamp, and primer size if appropriate.

Just to make you feel better about your problems: Did you know that a 9mm shooter has to deal with out of range pick up?
.380's...size very easily
9x18's...short bastard made it to loaded
.38 Super +P...long with a rim...sorta
.38 Super Comp...long without a rim
.38 TJ...holy cow that is a groove

If you want to feel even better...sell your 1911 and buy a Sig 220 or a Smith and Wesson 625 revolver. They will feed anything and the moon clips keep the brass together for easy pickup with a magnet...

 

[YancyW]

Sounds like you have your solution, but I will say, I called Nosler yesterday about an issue I was having, the person I talked to was extremely helpful and took of my issue with no questions asked.