North Fork Cup Point

[SStomcat]

I obtained some North Fork CPS rounds and some Woodleigh Hydro solids both in 300g for my first buffalo hunt. I had planned on using Barnes TSX for my first two rounds and having one of the solids loaded for the last 2 or 3 in the mag. To me, it sounded like a good plan. But, a couple of things happened to change my mind. Neither of my rifles will feed the flat point North Fork rounds reliably. They hand up every time I try to cycle the bolt fast. I tried the Woodleighs since the rounded poly tip in theory should feed better. They did not. In the end, my PH asked me to leave them home as he was getting good results with the TSX's alone and did not think the solids would be needed for Buffalo. This would be different if the prey was Elephant but we would not be using a 375 for that. Something larger.

So, just make sure you are comfortable with how these rounds function if you choose to use them.

One of my PH's swears by Barnes on buffalo. You are good.

 

[MLindsay]

I appreciate all the replies, I would like to look at the ballistic gel comparison but I guess there is not any

 

[doctari505]

I’ve read they aren’t recommended for elephant, but I’ve also seen a number of references to their successful use. What says the Brain Trust?

You mean CPS? or there is something they make as CNS?

CNS = cup nosed solid
CPS = cup nose solid

They are one and the same - sorry for the confusion

 

[doctari505]

I’ve read they aren’t recommended for elephant, but I’ve also seen a number of references to their successful use. What says the Brain Trust?

I was once asked for advice by a contact who was going on a buffalo hunt in Zim's Makuti Safari area. His rifle was a .375 Ruger.
Being a fan of heavy for caliber bullets I suggested 350 grn North Fork Semi Spitzers for the initial shot to be backed up by 350 grn Cup Point Solids.
He asked if the CPSs would work for elephant brain shots - just in case they ran into a problem while tracking buffalo.
I said I thought they might - they will definitely will work for body shots and side brain ones but I was not sure about frontal brain shots where the required penetration is considerably more.
He must have been physic because he and his PH were charged unprovoked and unexpectedly by a tuskless cow while on buffalo tracks.
At the time he was in front of his PH and first in the line of fire so to speak so he fired first when the cow was pretty close.
The cow dropped to the shot, so quickly that the PHs shot, a fraction of a second later landed high because the cow was already falling when he pulled the trigger.
You can see a stream of blood squirting out the lower entry hole - this tells me the cup nose reached the cranial cavity because it is the internal bodily blood pressure within the cranial cavity which is forcing the blood from the brain out the permanent wound channel.
There is no such blood from the higher hole because it is above the cranial cvity and in the relarively bloodless 'honeycomb'. These are the recovered cup points - the bent one was from an insurance shot through the spine. 350's have more momentum than 300 so they are a good choice for such situations.
For really close-range shots, especially with the .375 and their 1:12 twist rates, it is my experience that heavy for caliber bullets, by being longer are better suited for such situations because they stabalize sooner than 300 grainers, which usually take about 25 m to do so.

 

[towserthemouser]

I was once asked for advice by a contact who was going on a buffalo hunt in Zim's Makuti Safari area. His rifle was a .375 Ruger.
Being a fan of heavy for caliber bullets I suggested 350 grn North Fork Semi Spitzers for the initial shot to be backed up by 350 grn Cup Point Solids.
He asked if the CPSs would work for elephant brain shots - just in case they ran into a problem while tracking buffalo.
I said I thought they might - they will definitely will work for body shots and side brain ones but I was not sure about frontal brain shots where the required penetration is considerably more.
He must have been physic because he and his PH were charged unprovoked and unexpectedly by a tuskless cow while on buffalo tracks.
At the time he was in front of his PH and first in the line of fire so to speak so he fired first when the cow was pretty close.
The cow dropped to the shot, so quickly that the PHs shot, a fraction of a second later landed high because the cow was already falling when he pulled the trigger.
You can see a stream of blood squirting out the lower entry hole - this tells me the cup nose reached the cranial cavity because it is the internal bodily blood pressure within the cranial cavity which is forcing the blood from the brain out the permanent wound channel.
There is no such blood from the higher hole because it is above the cranial cvity and in the relarively bloodless 'honeycomb'. These are the recovered cup points - the bent one was from an insurance shot through the spine. 350's have more momentum than 300 so they are a good choice for such situations.
For really close-range shots, especially with the .375 and their 1:12 twist rates, it is my experience that heavy for caliber bullets, by being longer are better suited for such situations because they stabalize sooner than 300 grainers, which usually take about 25 m to do so.

@doctari505 I would love to hear your thoughts about the use of NF CPS bullets in .4 class (404J, 416 Rigby, 416RM, 458WM, 458 Lott, 470NE, etc.) cartridges and .5 class (500J, 505 Gibbs, 500NE, etc.) as a primary choice for elephant hunting, including the possibility of frontal shots on big bulls. I'm not asking about choosing these bullets as insurance when hunting other game in ele areas, but as a primary choice for dedicated ele hunts...

Do these modern bullets (I guess the Woodleigh Hydrostatics operate on a similar concept to the NF CPS) open the possibility of elephant hunting in cartridges with adequate horsepower, or would you stick with the traditional advice of "solids only for elephant?" And if so, would they offer any theoretical advantages over a traditional solid, or one of the modern monolithic flat-nose solids such as the NF FPS, etc.?

 

[SStomcat]

CNS = cup nosed solid
CPS = cup nose solid

They are one and the same - sorry for the confusion

CPS = Cup point solid, thats what I feel NF refers to them

 

[SStomcat]

I was once asked for advice by a contact who was going on a buffalo hunt in Zim's Makuti Safari area. His rifle was a .375 Ruger.
Being a fan of heavy for caliber bullets I suggested 350 grn North Fork Semi Spitzers for the initial shot to be backed up by 350 grn Cup Point Solids.
He asked if the CPSs would work for elephant brain shots - just in case they ran into a problem while tracking buffalo.
I said I thought they might - they will definitely will work for body shots and side brain ones but I was not sure about frontal brain shots where the required penetration is considerably more.
He must have been physic because he and his PH were charged unprovoked and unexpectedly by a tuskless cow while on buffalo tracks.
At the time he was in front of his PH and first in the line of fire so to speak so he fired first when the cow was pretty close.
The cow dropped to the shot, so quickly that the PHs shot, a fraction of a second later landed high because the cow was already falling when he pulled the trigger.
You can see a stream of blood squirting out the lower entry hole - this tells me the cup nose reached the cranial cavity because it is the internal bodily blood pressure within the cranial cavity which is forcing the blood from the brain out the permanent wound channel.
There is no such blood from the higher hole because it is above the cranial cvity and in the relarively bloodless 'honeycomb'. These are the recovered cup points - the bent one was from an insurance shot through the spine. 350's have more momentum than 300 so they are a good choice for such situations.
For really close-range shots, especially with the .375 and their 1:12 twist rates, it is my experience that heavy for caliber bullets, by being longer are better suited for such situations because they stabalize sooner than 300 grainers, which usually take about 25 m to do so.

very informative Sir.

 

[doctari505]

@doctari505 I would love to hear your thoughts about the use of NF CPS bullets in .4 class (404J, 416 Rigby, 416RM, 458WM, 458 Lott, 470NE, etc.) cartridges and .5 class (500J, 505 Gibbs, 500NE, etc.) as a primary choice for elephant hunting, including the possibility of frontal shots on big bulls. I'm not asking about choosing these bullets as insurance when hunting other game in ele areas, but as a primary choice for dedicated ele hunts...

Do these modern bullets (I guess the Woodleigh Hydrostatics operate on a similar concept to the NF CPS) open the possibility of elephant hunting in cartridges with adequate horsepower, or would you stick with the traditional advice of "solids only for elephant?" And if so, would they offer any theoretical advantages over a traditional solid, or one of the modern monolithic flat-nose solids such as the NF FPS, etc.?

600 grain .505 NF CPSs (at 2140 fps) were my carry load when I was at the Southern African Wildlife College which is situated within the greater Kruger National Park, where a 'self defence' situation from either a grumpy dagga boy or an ellie cow with PMS was always a possibility. This was my bullet of choice because it was more than adequate for such situations and I did have to shoot a lion-mauled dagga boy when it charged unprovoked three PH students and myself. I brained the bull at 5 paces and it dropped like a stone with the CPS passing through the brain, out the back of the scull down the side of the neck then through the spine at T2, through the right lung lobe and I recovered it at the back of the rumen. So I was able to both brain and spine the bull with one shot! What I found most interesting is that the hole into and out of the skull is exactly double caliber in side.
The Woodleigh Hydro is proving to be the best penetrator out there while creating the largest wound channels - this is why it is the first choice of my KNP game ranger friend who uses a .450 NE double for all his control work.
There is however a huge difference between 'hunting' and elephant and 'stopping' one.
In the former situation, when a frontal brain shot is needed for a quick, drop to the shot kill, the elephants head will be held up high as it looks down at you - this is because it needs this head position so as to be able focus on you with both eyes - to judge distsnce. If the shot is close, and it is a big bulls, the shot will need to be placed quite low down on the trunk to reach the brain. This can require up to 5 maybe even 6 feet of penetration for the bullet to reach the cranial cavity. Old Kynoch shaped bullets from even the popular big bore cartridges, especially the old cordite loaded ones never attained their advertised velocities and this, together with a poor bullet design meant some such shots never got to the brain. Modern-day flat nosed solids are much better penetrators.
So to answer your question in a long-winded way, I personally would be hesitant to take a frontal brain shot on an expensive, big bull trophy elephant when its head was up high with a CPS. From side-on it will work for sure but not every hunting situation guarantees such a shot.
In a charge situation the elephant will lower is head at the last minute. This changes the situation entirely because fron such a head position the penetration distance needed to reach the brain is considerably less - maybe as much as half of that when the head id held up high. So in such a situation a CPS will work. This is where I see a CPS in the chamber being a good choice when hunting other species.
The Swift Break Away Solid is a sort of blend between the two. Reports are that it penetrates well with a good sized wound channel but I have no real experience it. From the recovered ones I have seen, the 'rivet' the smallish cup the the nose contains and which creates it, is smaller than the 'cup' of the CPS.
For an expensive, trophy bull elephant hunt, regardless of caliber or cartridge I would be reluctant to 'experiment'.
The Woodleigh Hydro is now a well proven bullet giveing excellent penetration and larger than caliber permanent wound channels so this would be my bullet of choice - as heavy as it comes for that caliber.
My second choice would be the South African Dzombo - this bullet has a stellar reputation with the KNP rangers on all the pachyderms.
The NF FNS performs just as well as the Dzombo so it also comes highly recommended.
I have no exoerience with the FN CEB but I do not see why it would not perform equally as well.
Personally, I think the days of jacketed and lead core FMJs are over for expensive elephant hunts - why risk it when there are now so many better options out there.
I hope this is useful.

 

[towserthemouser]

600 grain .505 NF CPSs (at 2140 fps) were my carry load when I was at the Southern African Wildlife College which is situated within the greater Kruger National Park, where a 'self defence' situation from either a grumpy dagga boy or an ellie cow with PMS was always a possibility. This was my bullet of choice because it was more than adequate for such situations and I did have to shoot a lion-mauled dagga boy when it charged unprovoked three PH students and myself. I brained the bull at 5 paces and it dropped like a stone with the CPS passing through the brain, out the back of the scull down the side of the neck then through the spine at T2, through the right lung lobe and I recovered it at the back of the rumen. So I was able to both brain and spine the bull with one shot! What I found most interesting is that the hole into and out of the skull is exactly double caliber in side.
The Woodleigh Hydro is proving to be the best penetrator out there while creating the largest wound channels - this is why it is the first choice of my KNP game ranger friend who uses a .450 NE double for all his control work.
There is however a huge difference between 'hunting' and elephant and 'stopping' one.
In the former situation, when a frontal brain shot is needed for a quick, drop to the shot kill, the elephants head will be held up high as it looks down at you - this is because it needs this head position so as to be able focus on you with both eyes - to judge distsnce. If the shot is close, and it is a big bulls, the shot will need to be placed quite low down on the trunk to reach the brain. This can require up to 5 maybe even 6 feet of penetration for the bullet to reach the cranial cavity. Old Kynoch shaped bullets from even the popular big bore cartridges, especially the old cordite loaded ones never attained their advertised velocities and this, together with a poor bullet design meant some such shots never got to the brain. Modern-day flat nosed solids are much better penetrators.
So to answer your question in a long-winded way, I personally would be hesitant to take a frontal brain shot on an expensive, big bull trophy elephant when its head was up high with a CPS. From side-on it will work for sure but not every hunting situation guarantees such a shot.
In a charge situation the elephant will lower is head at the last minute. This changes the situation entirely because fron such a head position the penetration distance needed to reach the brain is considerably less - maybe as much as half of that when the head id held up high. So in such a situation a CPS will work. This is where I see a CPS in the chamber being a good choice when hunting other species.
The Swift Break Away Solid is a sort of blend between the two. Reports are that it penetrates well with a good sized wound channel but I have no real experience it. From the recovered ones I have seen, the 'rivet' the smallish cup the the nose contains and which creates it, is smaller than the 'cup' of the CPS.
For an expensive, trophy bull elephant hunt, regardless of caliber or cartridge I would be reluctant to 'experiment'.
The Woodleigh Hydro is now a well proven bullet giveing excellent penetration and larger than caliber permanent wound channels so this would be my bullet of choice - as heavy as it comes for that caliber.
My second choice would be the South African Dzombo - this bullet has a stellar reputation with the KNP rangers on all the pachyderms.
The NF FNS performs just as well as the Dzombo so it also comes highly recommended.
I have no exoerience with the FN CEB but I do not see why it would not perform equally as well.
Personally, I think the days of jacketed and lead core FMJs are over for expensive elephant hunts - why risk it when there are now so many better options out there.
I hope this is useful.

Yes, it's very helpful and I appreciate the expertise and advice. Coming from such an experienced and highly regarded source, even more so!

 

[Nhoro]

I would ask this question - what animal needs more penetration than a soft but less than a flat nose solid. Ellie cow is not a frontal on a big bull. So buffalo -use softs all the way. Ellie use flat nose solids all the way.what do we shoot with THE cup point- specialist texts heart shot on Eland or buffalo.Seems to me that Cup points are a solution looking for a problem.

 

[doctari505]

I would ask this question - what animal needs more penetration than a soft but less than a flat nose solid. Ellie cow is not a frontal on a big bull. So buffalo -use softs all the way. Ellie use flat nose solids all the way.what do we shoot with THE cup point- specialist texts heart shot on Eland or buffalo.Seems to me that Cup points are a solution looking for a problem.

Don't knock it until you've tried it!
In my opinion, the CPS is the ideal buffalo-backing shot bullet - it penetrates better than a soft point and produces a much bigger permanent wound channel than an FNS while penetrating almost as well.
The buffalo rumen is a formidable obstacle for an expanded softpoint to pass through, and in my time, I have recovered quite a few that did not reach where intended when shot from the left-hand side quartering-away angle, while every CPS shot from this angle did.
This is what a 600 grn .505 CPS did to a bull buffalo's heart. You could have dropped a golf ball into it! Proof indeed that the permanent wound channel these bullets create in soft tissue is 3 times the final 'riveted' diameter.
And in hard bone, the same bullet produced a hole double the caliber in size. This bullet also broke the neck, and I recovered it in the rearmost part of the rumen!
For Guides, I reckon this is the ideal bullet. A charge from a bull elephant is unlikely but not so from a cow, a buffalo or a lion - and a CPS will be more effective in such situations than any FPS.

 

[FOsteology]

I've only shot giraffe (lion bait) with them, but the results were spectacular. One giraffe was running, and after hit, look like he did a complete cartwheel before crashing down! lol

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Excellent for departing shots on Cape buffalo and hippopotamus on land. While they have seen some success on elephant, I don’t recommend them for elephant hunting. Expansion is your enemy for elephant hunting. Any form of expansion whatsoever. Rather, use Northfork’s excellent Flat Point Solid for elephant hunting.

I don’t recommend them for lion or leopard, because the Cup Point Solid is designed to rivet rather than expand like a true soft point. Although if the caliber is large enough (say .505-.510 bore), bullet diameter will compensate for lack of expansion.

 

[SStomcat]

Don't knock it until you've tried it!
In my opinion, the CPS is the ideal buffalo-backing shot bullet - it penetrates better than a soft point and produces a much bigger permanent wound channel than an FNS while penetrating almost as well.
The buffalo rumen is a formidable obstacle for an expanded softpoint to pass through, and in my time, I have recovered quite a few that did not reach where intended when shot from the left-hand side quartering-away angle, while every CPS shot from this angle did.
This is what a 600 grn .505 CPS did to a bull buffalo's heart. You could have dropped a golf ball into it! Proof indeed that the permanent wound channel these bullets create in soft tissue is 3 times the final 'riveted' diameter.
And in hard bone, the same bullet produced a hole double the caliber in size. This bullet also broke the neck, and I recovered it in the rearmost part of the rumen!
For Guides, I reckon this is the ideal bullet. A charge from a bull elephant is unlikely but not so from a cow, a buffalo or a lion - and a CPS will be more effective in such situations than any FPS.

Doctari - thank you for very useful and informative posts. I believe "the Woodleighs Hydros" and the NF CPS have the same profile, so would you also suggest them as a back up for Buffalo?

 

[Mark458]

600 grain .505 NF CPSs (at 2140 fps) were my carry load when I was at the Southern African Wildlife College which is situated within the greater Kruger National Park, where a 'self defence' situation from either a grumpy dagga boy or an ellie cow with PMS was always a possibility. This was my bullet of choice because it was more than adequate for such situations and I did have to shoot a lion-mauled dagga boy when it charged unprovoked three PH students and myself. I brained the bull at 5 paces and it dropped like a stone with the CPS passing through the brain, out the back of the scull down the side of the neck then through the spine at T2, through the right lung lobe and I recovered it at the back of the rumen. So I was able to both brain and spine the bull with one shot! What I found most interesting is that the hole into and out of the skull is exactly double caliber in side.
The Woodleigh Hydro is proving to be the best penetrator out there while creating the largest wound channels - this is why it is the first choice of my KNP game ranger friend who uses a .450 NE double for all his control work.
There is however a huge difference between 'hunting' and elephant and 'stopping' one.
In the former situation, when a frontal brain shot is needed for a quick, drop to the shot kill, the elephants head will be held up high as it looks down at you - this is because it needs this head position so as to be able focus on you with both eyes - to judge distsnce. If the shot is close, and it is a big bulls, the shot will need to be placed quite low down on the trunk to reach the brain. This can require up to 5 maybe even 6 feet of penetration for the bullet to reach the cranial cavity. Old Kynoch shaped bullets from even the popular big bore cartridges, especially the old cordite loaded ones never attained their advertised velocities and this, together with a poor bullet design meant some such shots never got to the brain. Modern-day flat nosed solids are much better penetrators.
So to answer your question in a long-winded way, I personally would be hesitant to take a frontal brain shot on an expensive, big bull trophy elephant when its head was up high with a CPS. From side-on it will work for sure but not every hunting situation guarantees such a shot.
In a charge situation the elephant will lower is head at the last minute. This changes the situation entirely because fron such a head position the penetration distance needed to reach the brain is considerably less - maybe as much as half of that when the head id held up high. So in such a situation a CPS will work. This is where I see a CPS in the chamber being a good choice when hunting other species.
The Swift Break Away Solid is a sort of blend between the two. Reports are that it penetrates well with a good sized wound channel but I have no real experience it. From the recovered ones I have seen, the 'rivet' the smallish cup the the nose contains and which creates it, is smaller than the 'cup' of the CPS.
For an expensive, trophy bull elephant hunt, regardless of caliber or cartridge I would be reluctant to 'experiment'.
The Woodleigh Hydro is now a well proven bullet giveing excellent penetration and larger than caliber permanent wound channels so this would be my bullet of choice - as heavy as it comes for that caliber.
My second choice would be the South African Dzombo - this bullet has a stellar reputation with the KNP rangers on all the pachyderms.
The NF FNS performs just as well as the Dzombo so it also comes highly recommended.
I have no exoerience with the FN CEB but I do not see why it would not perform equally as well.
Personally, I think the days of jacketed and lead core FMJs are over for expensive elephant hunts - why risk it when there are now so many better options out there.
I hope this is useful.

Thank you for your detailed information as always. I'm looking forward to trying NF CPS in my 458 Lott and 500 J as soon as I can get them loaded. As far as the FN CEB solids I can attest to their penetration abilities with my buffalo hunt last month. My PH and I were following up on my buffalo and faced a charge at about 10 yards. My PH was using 500 grain Barnes banded solids out of his 458 Win Mag and I was using 400 grain FN CEB solids out of my 404 Jeffery. I was just to the left of my PH when the buffalo charged as he was focused directly on my PH. We fired at the same time and we both recalled only hearing one shot. His bullet hit between the eyes and through the brain. My bullet went through the right side throat and spine and actually traveled the entire length of the buffalo and exited his left rear hind quarter. The cook actually found my PH's bullet while preparing the back straps. My bullet didn't leave a big wound channel like the CPS do, but I was shocked by how well it straight line penetrated after going through the spine.

 

[doctari505]

Doctari - thank you for very useful and informative posts. I believe "the Woodleighs Hydros" and the NF CPS have the same profile, so would you also suggest them as a back up for Buffalo?

To be honest, I have never seen a Woodleigh Hydro used for buffalo back-up and I only like to write about what I have personally experienced but having said that I think they will work well. My only concern would be that seeing they are such wonderful penetrators they might even exit from such shots. My game ranger friend in the Kruger National Park told me he had so shoot a big bull elephant with a frontal brain shot - he did so with a 500 grn Hydro from his .450 NE Heym double (at 2200 fps) and the Hydro exited between the shoulder blades!

 

[doctari505]

Thank you for your detailed information as always. I'm looking forward to trying NF CPS in my 458 Lott and 500 J as soon as I can get them loaded. As far as the FN CEB solids I can attest to their penetration abilities with my buffalo hunt last month. My PH and I were following up on my buffalo and faced a charge at about 10 yards. My PH was using 500 grain Barnes banded solids out of his 458 Win Mag and I was using 400 grain FN CEB solids out of my 404 Jeffery. I was just to the left of my PH when the buffalo charged as he was focused directly on my PH. We fired at the same time and we both recalled only hearing one shot. His bullet hit between the eyes and through the brain. My bullet went through the right side throat and spine and actually traveled the entire length of the buffalo and exited his left rear hind quarter. The cook actually found my PH's bullet while preparing the back straps. My bullet didn't leave a big wound channel like the CPS do, but I was shocked by how well it straight line penetrated after going through the spine.

Thank you for your comments - yes that is pretty usual for FNS - the permanent wound channels they create are usually never larger than caliber in size.
If you really want to up the terminal ballistic performance of your .404 try 450 grainers. Another KNP ranger I know uses 450 grn Dzombos in his .404 Jerrefy. Their penetration is so good they can kill any of the pachyderms from any angle. Remember this is not 'hunting' this is PAC 'work'.