New Pennsylvania accuracy/proficiency testing

[HankBuck]

This article doesn’t seem specify what position the shooting must be done from. It’s fair to assume it’s not from a bench. It’s probably fair to suspect that any commonly accepted field shooting positions (standing, kneeling, sitting, or prone) would be acceptable, as this is analogous to the real world. I would like there to be at least such a requirement in Alaska. The level of incompetence among so many hunters up here is really staggering. A LOT of moose and caribou are wounded and wasted (or fed to wolves) every year. That said, I don’t know how such a requirement would be implemented. The archery certification required for bow hunting only areas is only offered a few times a year and that’s a comparatively low demand. I don’t know how they could deal with thousands of people needing to certify rifle marksmanship.

@RedTag - good point “how could it be implemented”? Targets are NOT game animals and do not create the “excitement and varied situations” hunting does. But basic target shooting abilities are important and the Starting Point for good shooting.
As a slight comparison - New Jersey requires anyone applying for a Concealed Carry Permit to pass a State Mandated handgun proficiency test - the exact same shooting test required for NJ State Troopers to qualify….AND you must REqualify every 2 years to renew you CCP. The reason NJ does this is to make applying for a CCP as tedious and expensive as possible - so many people never bother applying.
I would hate to see New Hunters deterred by overly stringent requirements, there must be a balance, hunters have been allowed to hunt with minimal “testing” for 100s of years, Fathers teaching kids, learning from “misses” and even sometimes wounding animals — that will Never be eliminated even though every Hunter should learn from and try to Avoid mistakes. I think much hunting is already Over Regulated but understand much is necessary due to population increases and needed Game Management. I’m not sure exactly what the Right balance is and know there is a tipping point somewhere.

 

[Hogpatrol]

I hunt PA and with license sales and deer hunters half of what they were at the peak, overpopulation in some areas has become a major crop issue. It looks like Sunday hunting will finally pass after years of opposition from the farm lobby. Two counties have actually gone to hired guns to cull deer. This program will allow farmers, their families and friends to kill more deer with less state regulations. I see it as a win-win, food prices kept somewhat in check and the deer are donated to food banks.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Gentlemen,

I think most on this thread are missing the intent of this program. It is about access to hunting properties that would otherwise be off limits to hunters unknown to farmers.

I grew up in Potter County, Pennsylvania where in the 60's and early 70's, there was a "Deer behind every tree", or so it was said. Only absentee landlords would "post" their land as No Trespassing". As the children of land owners moved to where they could have a career, the land was sold to "flatlanders" from Philly, New Jersey, Harrisburg, Maryland, Delaware and other non-mountainous areas. Flatlanders had made their money and at the ages of most of us on AH, bought themselves a little piece of God's Country. And no Potter County "stump jumpers" or hillbillies twice removed would be allowed to set foot on what had been for generations just an unrestricted hollow or fields in a very rural area. The same thing happened across the country so rural Pennsylvania wasn't that special. When I visit my mother in my hometown, I don’t even think about hunting. My favorite woodchuck fields are now posted No Trespassing.

I remember long ago encounters with flatlanders from cities. Often the difference in cultures, urban to rural, caused unnecessary friction. Later, I was on the other side of that as a Yankee in Dixie. Having joined the Marines at the age of 17, I found myself in areas where No Trespassing signs were the norm. Add to that, Yankees such as myself were not always appreciated in North Carolina and rural Virginia. Knocking on doors to gain permission to hunt even ground hogs (vermin) was a long and seldom successful process.

Presently, the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC), a state Government agency, is trying to add hunting opportunities on otherwise posted farms that may suffer crop damage from deer. Granted this is a government program where do gooder staffers are trying to solve a problem. For that they require extra hunting education and a shooting qualification test. We DO NOT know the specifics of the test. I'll bet a soda or beer that some form of shooting rest is provided.

The intent of this program is that once a hunter is qualified under this program, landowners will be more likely to grant free access to them for hunting. The qualified hunters will probably now shoot their cows, horses, and so on. Yes, those things happened occasionally in my youth. The program may be a pain in the butt but isn't most anything today? For many hunters, this may provide opportunities that may otherwise not be available.

 

[HankBuck]

I hunt PA and with license sales and deer hunters half of what they were at the peak, overpopulation in some areas has become a major crop issue. It looks like Sunday hunting will finally pass after years of opposition from the farm lobby. Two counties have actually gone to hired guns to cull deer. This program will allow farmers, their families and friends to kill more deer with less state regulations. I see it as a win-win, food prices kept somewhat in check and the deer are donated to food banks.

@Hogpatrol - I grew up looking at PA Deer hunting as the greatest adventure on Earth! I traveled from NJ each year to hunt Opening Day in PA and could barely sleep the night before, getting up 3:00am and being in my Stand by 4:30 am and waiting 2 hours for legal shooting light….. THEN I’d notice “I’m Not alone” as dozens of specs of HUNTER ORANGE appeared all around me ! I’d be lucky to have 75-100 yrds between me and the next Hunter sometimes. The gunshots heard the first 30 minutes on Opening Days sounded like Omaha Beach on D-Day…it was always exciting and when I finally got my first deer (a Trophy SPIKE !) I felt like I had a World Record ! I hope other New Hunters get to have those exciting days too - Like Christmas morning as a kid - Opening Day of Rifle Deer Season in PA was the most exciting hunting I’ve ever done.

 

[skydiver386]

Gentlemen,

I think most on this thread are missing the intent of this program. It is about access to hunting properties that would otherwise be off limits to hunters unknown to farmers.

I grew up in Potter County, Pennsylvania where in the 60's and early 70's, there was a "Deer behind every tree", or so it was said. Only absentee landlords would "post" their land as No Trespassing". As the children of land owners moved to where they could have a career, the land was sold to "flatlanders" from Philly, New Jersey, Harrisburg, Maryland, Delaware and other non-mountainous areas. Flatlanders had made their money and at the ages of most of us on AH, bought themselves a little piece of God's Country. And no Potter County "stump jumpers" or hillbillies twice removed would be allowed to set foot on what had been for generations just an unrestricted hollow or fields in a very rural area. The same thing happened across the country so rural Pennsylvania wasn't that special. When I visit my mother in my hometown, I don’t even think about hunting. My favorite woodchuck fields are now posted No Trespassing.

I remember long ago encounters with flatlanders from cities. Often the difference in cultures, urban to rural, caused unnecessary friction. Later, I was on the other side of that as a Yankee in Dixie. Having joined the Marines at the age of 17, I found myself in areas where No Trespassing signs were the norm. Add to that, Yankees such as myself were not always appreciated in North Carolina and rural Virginia. Knocking on doors to gain permission to hunt even ground hogs (vermin) was a long and seldom successful process.

Presently, the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC), a state Government agency, is trying to add hunting opportunities on otherwise posted farms that may suffer crop damage from deer. Granted this is a government program where do gooder staffers are trying to solve a problem. For that they require extra hunting education and a shooting qualification test. We DO NOT know the specifics of the test. I'll bet a soda or beer that some form of shooting rest is provided.

The intent of this program is that once a hunter is qualified under this program, landowners will be more likely to grant free access to them for hunting. The qualified hunters will probably now shoot their cows, horses, and so on. Yes, those things happened occasionally in my youth. The program may be a pain in the butt but isn't most anything today? For many hunters, this may provide opportunities that may otherwise not be available.

Very well said Mark.

 

[Hunt anything]

I completely understand the premise of this regulation, be proficient and gain access to previously posted property. To me the problem with just about all government is once this is a “success” they very well may come back and make it statewide. I believe this will deter some that may hunt a couple of times a year and with hunter numbers declining state wildlife departments need all of the money they can get.
One thing we cherish here in the states is the freedom to hunt, we don’t need to become Europe where the perception is hunting is only for the wealthy aristocrats.
My 2 cents

 

[skydiver386]

Honestly, there are very few that couldn't meet this requirement after an afternoon or two of practice. It worries me that so many feel this to be a difficult accuracy challenge.

 

[HankBuck]

I completely understand the premise of this regulation, be proficient and gain access to previously posted property. To me the problem with just about all government is once this is a “success” they very well may come back and make it statewide. I believe this will deter some that may hunt a couple of times a year and with hunter numbers declining state wildlife departments need all of the money they can get.
One thing we cherish here in the states is the freedom to hunt, we don’t need to become Europe where the perception is hunting is only for the wealthy aristocrats.
My 2 cents

@Hunt anything - agree, I don’t think anyone doesn’t Understand this new regulation, but many see it as “over reach” and however well intended the Government has a long track record of poor execution AND using new regulations as a ‘stepping stone’ to add MORE regulations. I look at implementing the “Hunter Orange” as an example of a good idea - gone overboard. An “Orange” camo Hat is a major increase in visibility over what was worn for 100s of years and a solid Orange hat stands out for over 1000 yrds…and of course accidental shootings have been reduced as a direct result of Hunter Orange. But, many States now require both solid Orange hat AND solid Vest of orange, Require Orange on top of your blind - even Wooden Box blinds, and a slight “fade” in the Orange garment can also result in a violation & fine. These Hunter Orange laws have become as important to Fish & Wildlife as a “Fine $$ revenue generator” as it is for a hunter’s Safety. A Conservation Officer in Nj told me that without Hunter Orange they would be unable to spot hunters from a far - which enables them to walk into the woods and “check them” randomly, about 1/3 of all Hunters are in non compliance on “something” (forgot their license at home, didn’t instantly place tag on their deer, etc..). Very few Game Wardens in NJ ever issue a warning he told me because they are encouraged to write up violations and fines. This “Meter Maid” mentality in NJ and a few other states may Not be present in All States and I’ve met a few “reasonable” Game Wardens - but they are less common. 40 years of duck hunting and coming in with the ducks I shot openly displayed on the bow of my boat — then getting the decoys removed so they can “check” for an extra duck, having the plug on your cased/unloaded shotgun checked, your license inspected is all “routine” in NJ. This form of “search” would Never be tolerated on highways with cars - imagine getting pulled over just because the Police Officer wanted to “make sure” you had your drivers license on you??
We have a Family member that works for Fish & Wildlife and support them fully but their authority and approach to enforcement is more frequently abused then any other area of law enforcement that I’ve worked with.

 

[Hunt anything]

@HankBuck, 100% agree. Or in New Jersey you can always hunt with a NJ State Trooper, I hunted with one and he basically told a federal warden to F&@K off. The guy got back in his truck and left. It was somewhat comical and disconcerting at the same time!

 

[BonUm16]

I dunno… every government shooting facility I’ve been to in the lower 48 that are public shooting ranges not only have benches, they require shooters to use them… standing, kneeling, etc type positions are not allowed for “safety” reasons..

If this is a state govt requirement… it’s a bit contradictory to tell people they have to meet a standard that the same state government can’t support them practicing or qualifying by at any of their facilities..

Correct, PA’s public ranges allow shooting only when seated at the bench. I’ll say it is often ignored (along with the max mag limits) and have witnessed many warned or ticketed despite the clearly posted regs.

As to the shooting skills of the average PA hunter, my opinion is somewhat less charitable than other posters. It’s a conclusion reached after processing thousands of the state’s whitetails some years ago.

 

[Betterinthebush]

Gentlemen,

I think most on this thread are missing the intent of this program. It is about access to hunting properties that would otherwise be off limits to hunters unknown to farmers.

I grew up in Potter County, Pennsylvania where in the 60's and early 70's, there was a "Deer behind every tree", or so it was said. Only absentee landlords would "post" their land as No Trespassing". As the children of land owners moved to where they could have a career, the land was sold to "flatlanders" from Philly, New Jersey, Harrisburg, Maryland, Delaware and other non-mountainous areas. Flatlanders had made their money and at the ages of most of us on AH, bought themselves a little piece of God's Country. And no Potter County "stump jumpers" or hillbillies twice removed would be allowed to set foot on what had been for generations just an unrestricted hollow or fields in a very rural area. The same thing happened across the country so rural Pennsylvania wasn't that special. When I visit my mother in my hometown, I don’t even think about hunting. My favorite woodchuck fields are now posted No Trespassing.

I remember long ago encounters with flatlanders from cities. Often the difference in cultures, urban to rural, caused unnecessary friction. Later, I was on the other side of that as a Yankee in Dixie. Having joined the Marines at the age of 17, I found myself in areas where No Trespassing signs were the norm. Add to that, Yankees such as myself were not always appreciated in North Carolina and rural Virginia. Knocking on doors to gain permission to hunt even ground hogs (vermin) was a long and seldom successful process.

Presently, the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC), a state Government agency, is trying to add hunting opportunities on otherwise posted farms that may suffer crop damage from deer. Granted this is a government program where do gooder staffers are trying to solve a problem. For that they require extra hunting education and a shooting qualification test. We DO NOT know the specifics of the test. I'll bet a soda or beer that some form of shooting rest is provided.

The intent of this program is that once a hunter is qualified under this program, landowners will be more likely to grant free access to them for hunting. The qualified hunters will probably now shoot their cows, horses, and so on. Yes, those things happened occasionally in my youth. The program may be a pain in the butt but isn't most anything today? For many hunters, this may provide opportunities that may otherwise not be available.

Your read and mine are the same.

Also, we are currently suffering from an over abundance of whitetail deer, especially doe. And now, like in the 70’s the good bucks can’t service all the doe and a lot of junk bucks are catching the doe, so the quality of breeding in the herd is going down. When I count 25-45 deer in my canola fields grazing in January and February there are way too many deer.

The last two years I reopened my farm to guys I vetted, with one caveat, they had to fill their doe and bonus tags (or at least freeze trying) or they lost their spot next year. It has worked out well so far.

 

[mdwest]

I agree 100%. State and private facilities should not only allow, but encourage and provide training for standing, kneeling, sitting and prone shooting. These were the positions I was taught as a young hunter almost 50 years ago, and they were considered the basics of rifle marksmanship.

Yep.

Other than whitetail (which I typically shoot from a blind, in a seated position, with my rifle "rested" in some way (on a bench, or across the window sill, etc depending on the blind and its amenities), pretty much every animal I have shot has been from a standing, kneeling, sitting (on my butt, on the ground), or prone position..

Between my dad teaching me at a young age, and Uncle Sugar then training me further as a young adult, I learned to shoot well and be comfortable in a variety of shooting positions..

Unfortunately I think most hunters don't have those advantages or opportunities.. when they get put on the sticks, or asked to prone out, etc.. its the first time they have ever shot their firearms that way.. and they have no clue what they are doing.. because their ranges don't allow them to practice or shoot from any position other than seated at a bench..

 

[BonUm16]

Gentlemen,

I think most on this thread are missing the intent of this program. It is about access to hunting properties that would otherwise be off limits to hunters unknown to farmers.

I grew up in Potter County, Pennsylvania where in the 60's and early 70's, there was a "Deer behind every tree", or so it was said. Only absentee landlords would "post" their land as No Trespassing". As the children of land owners moved to where they could have a career, the land was sold to "flatlanders" from Philly, New Jersey, Harrisburg, Maryland, Delaware and other non-mountainous areas. Flatlanders had made their money and at the ages of most of us on AH, bought themselves a little piece of God's Country. And no Potter County "stump jumpers" or hillbillies twice removed would be allowed to set foot on what had been for generations just an unrestricted hollow or fields in a very rural area. The same thing happened across the country so rural Pennsylvania wasn't that special. When I visit my mother in my hometown, I don’t even think about hunting. My favorite woodchuck fields are now posted No Trespassing.

I remember long ago encounters with flatlanders from cities. Often the difference in cultures, urban to rural, caused unnecessary friction. Later, I was on the other side of that as a Yankee in Dixie. Having joined the Marines at the age of 17, I found myself in areas where No Trespassing signs were the norm. Add to that, Yankees such as myself were not always appreciated in North Carolina and rural Virginia. Knocking on doors to gain permission to hunt even ground hogs (vermin) was a long and seldom successful process.

Presently, the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC), a state Government agency, is trying to add hunting opportunities on otherwise posted farms that may suffer crop damage from deer. Granted this is a government program where do gooder staffers are trying to solve a problem. For that they require extra hunting education and a shooting qualification test. We DO NOT know the specifics of the test. I'll bet a soda or beer that some form of shooting rest is provided.

The intent of this program is that once a hunter is qualified under this program, landowners will be more likely to grant free access to them for hunting. The qualified hunters will probably now shoot their cows, horses, and so on. Yes, those things happened occasionally in my youth. The program may be a pain in the butt but isn't most anything today? For many hunters, this may provide opportunities that may otherwise not be available.

What part of Potter, Mark? Potter/Tioga is just about my favorite region of the commonwealth. I typically hunt out of Germania or Ansonia.

 

[jomw10]

Meeting this requirement shouldn't be a big deal. If you cannot meet it, probably something is wrong with your rifle.
I don't have an issue with it, but the implementation, that I could have... How are this proficiency test going to be done?, are there enough public ranges across the state to do it?, how much will it cost to the hunter? is it valid for multiple years or you have to do it every year.

 

[HankBuck]

@HankBuck, 100% agree. Or in New Jersey you can always hunt with a NJ State Trooper, I hunted with one and he basically told a federal warden to F&@K off. The guy got back in his truck and left. It was somewhat comical and disconcerting at the same time!

@Hunt anything - that’s interesting and knowing only a few Game Wardens and a couple of NJ State Troopers - there is No love lost between those groups. My understanding is a NJ State Trooper has ZERO authority over any Federal Conservation Officer. I know some Police (Not State Troopers) that were trespassing and poaching and were ticketed by NJ Game Wardens — they don’t miss an opportunity to write up a violation. Cops will cut other cops a break for speeding and even Drunk Driving - if it’s not involved in an accident, Not sure if a Game Warden would let another Game Warden go??
My limited experiance with Police that are also Hunters — they are the Worst Trespassers ever, go where they please and have No fear.

 

[Hunt anything]

I was hunting with a New Jersey native who was living in California at the time. After the incident that morning we were talking about it and his words pretty much were troopers run this state and can do whatever they want. Probably just his experience from growing up in a corrupt state.

 

[HankBuck]

I was hunting with a New Jersey native who was living in California at the time. After the incident that morning we were talking about it and his words pretty much were troopers run this state and can do whatever they want. Probably just his experience from growing up in a corrupt state.

@Hunt anything - I agree “Troopers can do whatever they want” and they are a close knit group. NJ State Police have been regarded as the Best Police Department in the Country with the toughest standards for any candidate to get into and “pass” their academy training - it’s longer then most and NJ was the last to allow Women into the State Police (1976) and the last to eliminate Boxing from the Academy physical requirements (2018?)…they are a well trained group of guys and they usually command attention & respect….better then most local police departments.
As far as cutting you a break - a State Trooper, FBI Agent, of an NYC Cop is down right “lenient” compared to most Game Wardens.

 

[Hogpatrol]

PSA, From the article "The program also discusses the use of the app OnX, which provides maps with property names and boundaries." I would not recommend using this as the end all and be all. I had it for three years and multiple times was not accurate, nor kept up to date. Would first verify property lines with the landowner.