How big is big enough? (Property)

[IvW]

Exactly.....

 

[rigbymauser]

I have hunted on 100000 hectars of land in SA...but never used more than 2x2 kilometer on that hunt Thats 400 hectars. Thats was enough for kudu, warthogs and springbok. This area wasn’t a highfenced but kalahari freerange. I wanted freerange, but experienced to not needed to do long walks. Walking ekstremely slowly like 100yards in an hour or slower was the key.

 

[mark-hunter]

I find it amazing that people have no issue hunting exotics on 2000 acres fenced in the states, Texas to be more specific, boust about it here but have a major issue hunting PG on a much larger property in SA ......makes no sense....

It is different type of people:

Type A) Client, not dissappointed:
Doesnt have a will to travel, (maybe does not even have a passport) just want exotic trophy, so goes to Texas, high fence.

Type B) Client, dissapointed:
Wants to experience "true" Africa, hunts on 4 digit budget, has read Ruark, Hemingway, Roosevelt - and have "real Africa" - false expectations for RSA game farm, so gets disappointed when seeing first fence (and then, to air the grievances, makes the shit storm all over internet)

Type C) Client, not dissapointed:
Well informed modern hunter, hunting on 4 digit budget, did his homework, knows about fences, doesnt mind, takes them as reality, or at least as acceptable compromise. Goes to RSA, and has modern african experience. Plans for next trip.

Type D) Client, not dissapointed:
Well informed modern hunter, hunting on 5-6 digit number, has read Ruark, Hemingway, Roosevelt, as well as modern authors, gets his bearings correctly, pays the price and go to "real wild" Africa without fences.

For example, at the moment, I cannot afford hunting in Tanzania, but I would love to hunt Tommy, grant. gerenuk or lesser kudu.
I've searched and researched within my own compromise if those are introduced anywhere else on any game farm in RSA or Namibia.
I couldnt find.
But, surprise, surprise, guess what?

I found gazzele hunitng offered on one of Texas ranches!
Of course, I did not byte, because Texas is not in my neighborhood, nor it is in Africa, but there will be some interested hunters, for sure - who would prefer not to go to Tanzania for any reason..

 

[DWB]

I always hunt on foot, don't mind being dropped off somewhere and working an area. Being a South African and living 100km from Pongola area, there are some farms I frequently hunt. And let me tell you, the one farm I have hunted the most is only 700ha. The more I hunt it the more I realise how little of it I've seen and I have come home empty handed many times. The 30+ head buffalo herd I will most likely only see every third day hunt I do there. Nevermind some other spiecies. Terrain is everything, I hate hunting the grass plains of the highveld. But give me the dense bushveld in KZN and Limpopo and you will have the hunt of a lifetime on a 1000ha farm.

We don't have the added pressure of having to collect a certain number of species though and can take what the bush and budget allows.

 

[PaulT]

I think something else a hunter should take into consideration is how many trophies are harvested per annum on a spesific property
Hunting a 5-10k acre property that is well managed you are gonna hunt "free range" self sustaining animals. This may be small for some people but your hunting experience will be real.

Then i can take you to a 20 000 acre or larger property but every second outfitter hunts there. Then that large property will be a put and take operation. Is it then really better hunting a larger property?

And as Rouan has said the type of terain plays a big part. Hunting 5000 or 10 000 acre in the free state or karoo cannot be compared to hunting the same size property in the Northen Bushveld parts of the country.

Happy hunting
Gerrit

So, going by this then, one cannot assume, given the size alone of the property that it is NOT a put and take operation ?

 

[autofire]

the type of animals on the property seem to impact the "feel" of the hunt. i was on a 3500 hectare high fenced property in RSA and it seemed like old MacDonalds farm. sable just came up to feed boxes by fence gate, herd of black wildebeest just followed the roads , even the cape buffalo acted like hunting jeep was his dinner wagon. i think animals on smaller high fenced farms loose their fear of man and wild instincts. 25k hectare high fence in Bots just the opposite. 1000s of animals that ran wild spooked at sight of trucks real stalk and spot experience.

 

[mark-hunter]

Whatever we are doing, as clients, in our research before going to the hunt, we are actually doing by:

1. Smart correspondence with outfitter (none will ever advertise P&T ops)

2. Checking the references from other hunters, (but what do the clients know about P&T logistics?)

3. Checking the size of the property. (But we have established that, smaller size does not mean P&T, as well as large size does not necessarily mean exclusion of P&T)

4. Under point 1, could do smart research the number of visiting hunters per year, with extreme number of visitor hunters giving some indication of P&T

And this is all basically remote research, mostly by means of internet, and based on trust and good faith.
Bottom line, it is not 100% certain we can identify put and take operation, with means available to us on another continent.

Has anybody tried typing in the google, something like "put and take hunting operation"?

Well, I tried, and there will be on entire google very few, very obscure links. Zero practical info.
The biggest number of links on this forum.

So, remote research as we know it, is not going to give 100% results. Far less.

So, my question to experienced African hunters and especially to PH's, would be:

- Once on the hunting ground, (even when is too late) how can a client recognize and identify P&T animal?

- Or, is there a difference in behavior of P&T animal when compared to self sustained bread animal?

 

[flatwater bill]

There is much more solitude on many large fenced properties in South Africa than there is in the National Forest here in general deer or elk season. It is an unfenced 2.2 million acres with little game, and a hunter behind every tree. The surging population in Africa means people are penetrating into the wild like never before.....herding stock, building villages, mining, roads, working, and unfortunately, poaching. The fence works both ways.................FWB

 

[Bos en Dal SAFARIS]

Whatever we are doing, as clients, in our research before going to the hunt, we are actually doing by:

1. Smart correspondence with outfitter (none will ever advertise P&T ops)

2. Checking the references from other hunters, (but what do the clients know about P&T logistics?)

This is probably the best advise as with point 1 difficult to say as the operator will not tell you directly that he does have a P&T operation. Point 2 in my opinion is the best advise you can take, talk to references, these are the people that's seen the operation and know what is happening at the Outfitter you are planning to hunt with.

- Once on the hunting ground, (even when is too late) how can a client recognize and identify P&T animal?

On a Put and take operation you will see mainly only mature male animals with very few females. on a property where there are self sustainable herds you will see a diverse number of animals from the same species, lets use impala. You will see big herds of female with 1 or 2 mature herd males in them and a bunch of young ones up to maybe 1 year old males, then you will see groups of bachelor herds that will vary from mature trophy males to younger 1 and 2 year old's.

This is true for almost all animals. So if you see signs of herd animals and a variety in size you know it is most likely self sustaining herd. But if there are only mature male animals wondering around and everyone is a very good rep or trophy quality then you are busy hunting a P&T operation

But again the best advise would be to talk to references and get their view on the operation as they have had first hand experience

My best
Gerrit

 

[Bos en Dal SAFARIS]

So, going by this then, one cannot assume, given the size alone of the property that it is NOT a put and take operation ?

Not entirely, i am not talking about the wild hunting areas Africa has to offer, this statement is made for South African hunting destinations. But property size should not be your only factor determining where you want to hunt. As @mark-hunter mentioned talk to references that is key before booking a hunt.

Just today i phoned a land owner that is advertising buffalo for hunting purposes on 17 000 acres, i think we all agree that 17 000 acres can keep you busy in thick bush.

After some discussion it became clear that all the land he has available is 17000 acres but the buffalo is in a 3000 acre area. Now on 3000 acres you can still be very busy hunting a buffalo but the 17 000 acre statement is going to catch the attention, and if you don't talk to someone that was there you will be hunting a smaller area than what you initially thought and it might as well be a P&T operation

My best

 

[mark-hunter]

@Bos en Dal SAFARIS

Gerrit, thanks!
Great answer. Really great, I believe we all should take a good note of it!
Especially newbies visiting RSA for first time!

 

[rigbymauser]

I have always wanted to go to Ethiopia for hunting and to experience some wild africa along the nile. However If I bring a rifle it will cost 6x, but if I leave out the hunting part I can do the same trip for 2x. To bring the rifle cost an additionally 4x. To hunt an impala in ethiopia cost 10 fold of the cost in SA. One pay ALOT to be able to say ‘I have shot a deer in Ethiopia’. I have spoke with different people who have worked in Ethiopia and if staying there for a longer time its fairly easy to find someone with an .303 and go shoot an antilope for a silly money. Its like SA. Local rate for a kudu is R4500-5000 if one know the right people...a US huntingtourist pay USD2500.

 

[DWB]

Please send me the details of those R4500-5000 kudus! You struggle to hunt a bushveld bull for under R15k as a local. And many times, we get told the trophy bulls are reserved for international hunters....

 

[mark-hunter]

I've been to Africa many times, Western African countries, but not for hunting.
I agree with you @rigbymauser , that many things can be negotiated.

But, the question remains - can such trophies be exported?

 

[rigbymauser]

Please send me the details of those R4500-5000 kudus! You struggle to hunt a bushveld bull for under R15k as a local. And many times, we get told the trophy bulls are reserved for international hunters....

The farmes I have got to know up in kalahari charge biltonghunters the quoted price. I have never paid anymore. I don’t about trophy and I don’t bring a tapemeasure. I am in for the hunt and the hunt alone. I pay R1500 for a springbok..warthogs for free. Baboons are for free, but the are very rare. If one spend the time up there and talk with some local boers at the Kooperasie I have been invited to hunt for a small money.

 

[Borderer]

I have approached this by comparing to UK sizes. In my experience, most highland estates are split in to 10,000 acre beats which will support 2-3 days stalking in a week, but certainly not on consecutive days. I think most serious stalking estates supporting daily stalking through the season would be 30,000 acres plus, but there are plenty of smaller places that support less intensive stalking and it all depends on the neighbours. I would estimate the range of a red deer to be circa 100,000 acres but very few estates are that size and many now border rewilding projects which can become a vacuum. On the other hand, I regularly stalk roe on a 300 acre block which is approximately 20% woodland and the remaining part farmland. They are wild animals but in a cultivated environment. I would estimate their range to be about 1,500 acres (but I could be very wrong). I have stayed on a hunting property in KZN which was very similar. Wild animals but in a cultivated environment.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

This has zero scientific backing and is entirely anecdotal.

When I hunted Game4Africa two years ago, my basis for judgement was how the animals reacted to us, if they knew we were there. In all cases, irrespective of the species, they acted exactly as a moose would act if I was hunting at home, and our bulls get a lot of local pressure. Put another way, the animals I saw over there, IMHO, acted consistent with wild animals. I had conversations with my PH (also the owner) about their operation, its history, the properties, and the fact their herds are self-sustaining, and was satisfied with his answers.

Another factor, and maybe someone brought this up and I missed it: many of their properties are owned outright by them - so nothing is shared. And they only take a couple of parties at a time, so at any one time, hunting pressure is pretty minimal. You're not competing with ten other hunters. You're not competing with a half dozen other outfitters.

Size? I don't remember the exact number. I think the property the lodge is on is something like 15 or 20K acres, and they own other properties much larger than that. For myself? It met with a satisfactory threshold.

 

[Frederik]

Easy tell tale of P&T operation after you shot the only mature Sable on the property ask if you can taste it. If the animal was dropped off recently you will not be able to eat it from the calming meds when it was transported.

Ask the question and see the reaction in the faces.
Unfortunately if you get that face you have just taken a P&T animal.
The other tell tale sign is outfits who produce SCI gold medals every week.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

There is nothing as satisfying as seeing breeding herds of what you are after, a bull, females and young, and then find the kicked out bulls to hunt. Then you know.