High end bolt vs low end double

[Kevin Peacocke]

This question crops up a lot here, especially where someone is contemplating an affordable or entry level double rifle and the advice of some is to steer well clear and rather get a high end bolt gun for the same money. There is something undeniably attractive about a double rifle, it has safari Africa or India connotations that draws hunters to want one.
It may be useful to put some sort of number to the money we are talking about. For me, I am thinking around US$10 000 as the divide.
The first question is whether all entry level or budget doubles are that bad? I have read conflicting reports with a couple of bad names cropping up, but I have yet to hear anything negative about the Chapuis Iphisi, for example, which was pegged right at this price point.
That leads into whether all high-end bolt guns are good? I have seen many mishaps in this category too.
Of course we would all want the best, but that is subjective and one person's best may not be the next's. For example, for me functionality and reliability are paramount, then come fit and form behind that and last of all embelishment.

I suppose it all boils down to getting to the bottom of what is optimal, what is acceptable and what is reject. Ticking the boxes that work for you.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

@Kevin Peacocke
Here’s my take on this from April,

Thread 'Dreaming of a Double Rifle...'
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/dreaming-of-a-double-rifle.91624/

 

[BeeMaa]

I’d take a Heym/Rigby/Mauser in a DG cartridge for $15K 10 times out of 10, before using that same money on a double regardless of the maker. Apologies for raising your limit from $10K to $15K, but I think the high end bolt actions are in that range.

The potential pitfalls with a double represent a significant gamble if the buyer is not educated to a high level. Not to mention that the DR will most likely need to be sent to JJ (or some other reputable DR gunsmith) to be truly ready for the field. And that doesn’t even cover load development for proper regulation.

Give me a high end magazine bolt rifle please. Honestly, you guys know me all too well and it would most likely be a Blaser R8 Kilombero.

 

[TOBY458]

I’d take a Heym/Rigby/Mauser in a DG cartridge for $15K 10 times out of 10, before using that same money on a double regardless of the maker. Apologies for raising your limit from $10K to $15K, but I think the high end bolt actions are in that range.

The potential pitfalls with a double represent a significant gamble if the buyer is not educated to a high level. Not to mention that the DR will most likely need to be sent to JJ (or some other reputable DR gunsmith) to be truly ready for the field. And that doesn’t even cover load development for proper regulation.

Give me a high end magazine bolt rifle please. Honestly, you guys know me all too well and it would most likely be a Blaser R8 Kilombero.

I agree. But I think @Bob Nelson 35Whelen renamed that particular R8 model to “Kilombarbie”.

 

[Altitude sickness]

You can find an amazing Parkwest or Dakota for under $10k

An early Rigby with nice patina for around $10k

 

[mdwest]

I think it largely depends on intent..

If the intention is to have a dedicated DG rifle, and $10k is the target price, I’d find a Chapuis double or perhaps an Army-Navy in good condition, etc..

If the intention is to have a rifle capable of DG, but versatile enough to readily be used for other prey, I’d go with the high end bolt gun every time..

Because I fall into the latter category… DG is an infrequent hunt, and anytime I’m going to hunt DG, I’m also going to be hunting PG, I’m a bolt guy

 

[Altitude sickness]

I agree, if your an elephant hunter a double is nice to have.

 

[skydiver386]

I've easily owned over 100 firearms, visited hundreds of gun stores in the U.S., and many gun stores overseas, and until I went to the SCI show in Nashville I'd never actually seen a Double Rifle up close.

The bottom line is that they are extremely rare, even among well heeled hunters. It takes a team of very talented Craftsman to build and maintain a Double, much like a high end supercar.

A Century ago the Double made perfect sense, especially for DG. If your wallet allows it, you are willing to develop the skills needed to shoot it, and you can hunt Africa frequently, I say buy one. They are wonderful pieces of times past, and a tradition that should be kept alive.

Modern labor cost take even the least expensive Double out of the hands of blue collar hunters. To be honest, spending anything above 2 weeks pay on a firearm by the average married man would put you in the dog house.

For most, the bottom price of 10k is to much. Half that and the average guy can have a reliable factory bolt gun.

 

[Pheroze]

I went with the bolt. I seriously thought about a cheaper double. But what you can get for the same price in a bolt is a flawless work of art that gives such pride of ownership!

 

[Red Leg]

I fully agree with the mystique of a double being interesting. But to be honest, for anyone who grew up a "rifleman" and appreciating accuracy, a double is a pretty miserable excuse for a "rifle." This is particularly true of the current entry level guns that are regulated into three or four inches at 50 yards making them little more than glorified slug guns. Yes, there are exceptions, but the majority will frustrate their owners and see very little real use.

The only one of my doubles that has had extensive field use has been my Blaser S2. It was not created as a cheap copy of an English double, but was designed as a modern interpretation intended to mount a scope. All three barrel sets of mine shoot MOA or better from each barrel and sub 2.5" four shot groups (LxR/LxR) at 100 yards. Sighted in on the right barrel it will do anything in the same caliber a bolt gun will. Obviously, gun writers and the public hated it because it wasn't traditionally and "properly" of limited use in the field.

Finally, few on this forum will take a fifties era thirty-day safari. Most of our hunts are seven to at most 14 days. Under those conditions, a client is best armed with something that allows him to take maximum advantage of every shot opportunity presented. In hunting reports, I have noticed a trend is to take a double for "follow-up" while actually hunting with a scoped bolt action. I am not sure the investment is worth walking up to a dead bull for a photo with a double in my hand.

My strong recommendation would be to invest in the finest bolt action one can afford, and I would hasten to add 10-15K will purchase a superb R8 set for PG and DG.

 

[Altitude sickness]

@Red Leg my wife’s $600 savage 220 20 gauge slug gun takes offense to that comment. I don’t think a double rifle at any cost has ever been made that is as accurate as that savage slug gun.

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

I thought I needed a double for DG hunting as I enjoy it the most. Bought a nice VC Azur 500 NE and enjoyed shooting it. But I found a double was less versatile for me than a bolt. So sold the VC and stayed with my AHR CZ 458 Lott I already had for my DG rifle.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Personally, I've never understood the attraction to double rifles. I'm a historian with a house full of antiques I've restored. And in my career with the Park Service I did a lot of play acting in historical costume. That was "okay" but never was obsessed with it. The nature walk presentations were my thing. On the flip side I've never been a technocrap fanatic either. I have embraced technology that improved research and communication because I've always been passionate about learning. But when it comes to hunting, the technology available when I started out in 1964 was sufficient to force me to learn to be a good hunter (e.g. tracking game for close shots) and still harvest animals humanely. No compound bows or rifles shooting into the next zipcode. Because I was forced to be relatively primitive (e.g. horses instead of SxS), I learned the value of being a part of nature which is what makes hunting enriching. For me, collecting trophies is way down the list. But there is a line in the sand too. I'm not going after game with a slingshot or spear just to get closer to nature. I started out with a bolt action Springfield and a Model 12 pump. Very quickly (1968) moved up to a Wingmaster twelve gauge magnum because the Winchester was too short and only 16 gauge. I'd still be shooting stuff with both guns but had to switch to a lighter recoil auto shotgun when my retinas started to fall apart in 2003-2004. Then I picked up essentially the same gun as my dad's Model 11 semi, a Browning A5. Worked for him and it works for me. He made my rifle too. My youth is as far back as I want or need to be nostalgic about hunting or hunting equipment. I didn't know Ernest Hemingway (thankfully!) or Teddy Roosevelt nor do I have any personal connection to their era. It's gone. Reliving my youth is hard enough, especially with the current runaway destruction of available hunting habitat.

I'm certainly not attracted to some obsolete piece of shooting history that I cannot maintain myself. DIY is another trait Dad handed down to me. He was raised during the Great Depression when people had to take care of themselves ... or die! I can perform surgery on my A5 and built my 98 Mauser 404J but that's about my limit. Double rifle maintenance is for rocket scientists and I don't have enough life left in me to achieve that level.

 

[sureshot375]

While I can appreciate them for their craftsmanship and artistic value, the high end bolt doesn’t do anything a much less expensive bolt gun can’t do.

A scoped bolt is much more versatile than a double. Everyone is going to be more accurate with a bolt than with a double.

Gun writers and internet groups will try to convince you that you are at a disadvantage if you don’t have a double. This is simply not true. When it comes to the role of a client, whose primary job is to get the first shot right, a double is a disadvantage.

I love the challenge of getting close and hunting with my double with irons. It is however an added challenge. The only time a double shines is a close quarters charge, and elephant brain shots where an immediate second shot can be huge if the brain is missed.

I also don’t think you can make a blanket statement that 10k doubles are junk. I have about 11k in my current hunting double. It functions perfectly and I shoot it very well.

At the end of the day the only thing that matters is does the rifle function flawlessly and can you shoot it.

Cheers to whichever you choose. The most important thing is to get out and hunt.

 

[TOBY458]

While I can appreciate them for their craftsmanship and artistic value, the high end bolt doesn’t do anything a much less expensive bolt gun can’t do.

A scoped bolt is much more versatile than a double. Everyone is going to be more accurate with a bolt than with a double.

Gun writers and internet groups will try to convince you that you are at a disadvantage if you don’t have a double. This is simply not true. When it comes to the role of a client, whose primary job is to get the first shot right, a double is a disadvantage.

I love the challenge of getting close and hunting with my double with irons. It is however an added challenge. The only time a double shines is a close quarters charge, and elephant brain shots where an immediate second shot can be huge if the brain is missed.

I also don’t think you can make a blanket statement that 10k doubles are junk. I have about 11k in my current hunting double. It functions perfectly and I shoot it very well.

At the end of the day the only thing that matters is does the rifle function flawlessly and can you shoot it.

Cheers to whichever you choose. The most important thing is to get out and hunt.

I see Chap is being a bad influence on you in both the double rifle and the beer. LOL!

 

[grand veneur]

Eternal discussion, but some are for so fixated on the double rifles that they are hard to convince that they are using absolutely obsolete rifles and that they have to adapt their hunting to their rifles if they want to are successful in all cases. If I had hunted with only a double rifle, I would not have shot the most part of my buffalo due to the different presented shooting situations. The advantage in case of an attack is also a myth. You only have two shots and reloading quickly a double rifle is not easy, especially the heavy big bores.

 

[Taylorz1]

Im going to just say- many PHs have had long careers with BRNO, CZ and Model 70 winchester rifles. These rifles can be had for under $2000. I think that once you get above this price point you are doing it out of want not need. You are just buying pretty wood, nicer finish or a famous name. 99.9% of clients that use a double do it because they want to not because they need to. Thats not a bad reason to use a double but I think the reality of it

 

[Altitude sickness]

There’s no denying a double rifle feels better in the hands. looks better. and carries better. With other trade-offs.

 

[alby]

Love both bolt or double, as long as its vintage for me. Prefer a pre war English named Mauser or double over any new Heym or Rigby.
My 123 year old WJ Jeffery double just feels right!

 

[BJH65]

These threads are insidious to me. Every time I read them I contemplate selling off my more moderately priced big bore bolt rifles and acquiring a Rigby, Mauser, Reimer Johannsen, Heym or Blaser R8 Kilombero. I could sell all seven of them and get two of the above, perhaps one in 375 H&H or 416 Rigby and 458 Lott?