Help with info on a Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle

[steve white]

Don Henry (RIP) of the Mannlicher Collector's Assoc. always advised me to keep loading on my 1908 MS to the lower side of manual specs., not exceeding the middle pressure recommendations. He claimed the metalurgy of the early years was nowhere near as robust as, for example, a model 1950 or year models forward.

 

[PCC600]

I was not aware it edged out the 375 H&H flanged! Not too shabby.

It was not more power more powerful than the 375 H&H flanged magnum . Not even close . The 375 flanged referred to in Red Leg’s post is the older 375 flanged 2.5 inch cartridge . It was obsolete before WW1 .

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Hard to see in the photos, but if the bipod did not involve permanent alteration, no major 'foul' has been committed in my opinion.

Grand Dad's 1922 proofed M1910 Take Down Model wears a Gerard B 'scope on claw mounts. A 'period' alteration which was done before he purchased it second hand in late 1929 or January of '30.

Bottom line; it's your rifle and if that suits you better and makes it more practical for intended use - have at it. If someone were to rechamber it to 6.5 Creedmoor or paint it pink, that would be a major 'party foul'.

Please do elaborate on your 'fire forming' technique and process. Watch for stretched and weakened brass in the 'web' area.

Also, what projectiles are you using?

Too late to edit. I just realized, having reread the thread, the error of my comment regarding bipod and / or other 'alterations'.

It's a replacement stock as the original was irreparably broken at the wrist.

The grip area seems to differ from originals, likely more suitable to owner, original 'special folding peep sight' was preserved. Scope looks anachronistic to the 'purist' (because it is).

I'm all for it.

A step further; If I had a source for a proper fitting and balanced synthetic stock for my (Grand Dad's) M1910 Take Down Model I'd gladly use it while leaving original stock in its fitted case while synthetic takes the wear if I were to use it frequently or in bad weather. I'd even consider a picatinny rail to fit the 1920s claw mount

In addition, the metal looked pretty 'rough' in the initial photos of Dyls85's M1910, I commend him for bringing her back to use.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Red Leg’s post is the older 375 flanged 2.5 inch cartridge . It was obsolete before WW1 .

Also known as Velopex.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Some bacon with the M1910

The purpose for which she was born.

Kudos for bringing a 'retired' Mannlicher Schoenauer M1910 back to life.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Or these:

View attachment 682677

Marked as "9.5X57 Mauser", but purchased (by me) direct from RCBS about 1990, correct part number for MS, assured by RCBS they were proper, have used to resize .35 Whelen to near perfect copies of DWM531.

Yes, the CH4D are marked the same. My understanding after speaking with CH4D is they are the same specs. I have NOT been able to find info on a 9.5X57 Mauser. My ability to search online seems to be atrophying, when I search on 9.5X57Mauser, I get Mannlicher hits, and info on the 9X57 Mauser. But those dies will do.

 

[Rolland]

I just received a set of CN4D dies and went through the same thing, they call them 9.5 X 56 and and assured me that they are the same as 9.5 X 57. I loaded up 20 rounds and they work perfect.

 

[Dyls85]

Hard to see in the photos, but if the bipod did not involve permanent alteration, no major 'foul' has been committed in my opinion.

Grand Dad's 1922 proofed M1910 Take Down Model wears a Gerard B 'scope on claw mounts. A 'period' alteration which was done before he purchased it second hand in late 1929 or January of '30.

Bottom line; it's your rifle and if that suits you better and makes it more practical for intended use - have at it. If someone were to rechamber it to 6.5 Creedmoor or paint it pink, that would be a major 'party foul'.

Please do elaborate on your 'fire forming' technique and process. Watch for stretched and weakened brass in the 'web' area.

Also, what projectiles are you using?

For the fire forming I take annealed 30 06 brass,run it through a full length sizing die with the primer extractor and expander ball removed to push the shoulder back, then prime and load up with 18gr S335 powder (apparently a faster burning pistol powder works better but I used what I had) then fill the cartridge with maize flour and block the top with a bit of soap to seal it off.
Then fire it off, some times it doesn’t quite expand enough, but it is enough to run the expander ball through afterwards. I then trim the cartridge back down to 57mm and voila and perfect useable case.
Projectiles I have tried a few different ones, I was using old pmp round nose 286gr lead cores but they are very hard to come by, I’ve recently found another South African manufacturer (Axe bullets) that does 250gr copper and 250gr brass round nose in 375, they cycle beautifully through the magazine and on 46gr S335 powder I’m grouping at around an inch to inch and a half on 100m. All and all very very happy!

 

[Sarg]

Also known as Velopex.

I don’t believe that is correct Velopex is the 400/375 Belted Nitro, similar ballistics to .375 Rimless Nitro / 9.5x56MS
The .375 2 1/2in NE is 150fps less with the 270gr bullet but I think with the factory 320gr @ 2000fps it would edge them out ?

I load my .375Ex 2 1/2in higher but less than max as I use in Lee Speeds & Steyr rifles.

 

[SaintPanzer]

I just received a set of CN4D dies and went through the same thing, they call them 9.5 X 56 and and assured me that they are the same as 9.5 X 57. I loaded up 20 rounds and they work perfect.

Yes. The reason for that is the Austrians measure rimless cases to the top of the "rim", the Germans (and CIP, dimension L3) the overall case length. So that 1mm difference between the two is actually the "rim" itself.

Where I get confused is the 9.5X57 Mannlicher Schönauer, and the 9.5X57 Mauser. I haven't been able to find anything on the latter, and it's not listed in the CIP list.

 

[Rolland]

If you want to know more about this rifle contact James Purdey in London . They have the books for James Woodward ( purchased by Purdey circa 1947 ) . They will provide full written details including - date of rifle sale , the buyer details , original stock dimensions etc . All for a fee but not overly expensive.

Does this service apply to all the MS rifles? If so how might I contact them?

 

[PCC600]

Does this service apply to all the MS rifles? If so how might I contact them?

It would only apply to MS rifles retailed by either Purdey or Woodward ( and stamped on barrels or actions accordingly ). If you need to contact Purdey just go onto their website . You are simply looking for a gun history . I did it for my Purdey double rifle and they came back to me with full details within about one week .

 

[Borderer]

I have been reading John Taylor’s book and he mentioned that the Mannlicher Schoenaur is known for failing to extract fired cases. How common is this?

 

[SaintPanzer]

I have been reading John Taylor’s book and he mentioned that the Mannlicher Schoenaur is known for failing to extract fired cases. How common is this?

I've never heard this, and I've never had this problem.

W.D.M. Bell did state he had unreliable cartridges that split, causing issues with extracting, but I'd always thought that meant difficult bolt lift, and I assumed that was based on cartridge quality, not rifle quality. This was his stated reason for switching to the 7X57 Mauser.

What I have heard, but cannot assert, was a comment by Finn Aagard. He noted that he preferred the Mauser, because its action was a bit "sloppier" (i.e. not machined as precisely). The stated reason was that the Mauser allowed for some grit, but the Mannlicher was less reliable if dust/grit got into the action, as it became too tight to work.

I've never had that problem either, though if my Drill Instructor caught me with grit like that in my rifle, no matter the circumstances, I can't imagine the hell that would ensue.

 

[steve white]

I have been reading John Taylor’s book and he mentioned that the Mannlicher Schoenaur is known for failing to extract fired cases. How common is this?

I think Taylor had a strong anti-German bias in general. I have never been able to find other corroboration of his remarks about failing to extract. My personal experiences with Mannlicher-Schoenauers have been uniformly exemplary!

 

[grand veneur]

MS actions in good shape works perfectly. Compared to a Mauser 98 action, it is a more complex bolt action in terms of technology and therefore certainly more prone to malfunctions, but which as the owner of two MS rifles I have also never observed. Nevertheless, I don't used both rifles for hunting in Africa and therefore remain careful with a statement about the absolute reliability of this bolt actions under very hard conditions on this continent.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Yes, the CH4D are marked the same. My understanding after speaking with CH4D is they are the same specs. I have NOT been able to find info on a 9.5X57 Mauser. My ability to search online seems to be atrophying, when I search on 9.5X57Mauser, I get Mannlicher hits, and info on the 9X57 Mauser. But those dies will do.

I never got a sensible answer from RCBS other than assurance that they were correct for the M1910 MS cartridge. Perhaps RCBS and CH4D used the same source material?

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I don’t believe that is correct Velopex is the 400/375 Belted Nitro, similar ballistics to .375 Rimless Nitro / 9.5x56MS
The .375 2 1/2in NE is 150fps less with the 270gr bullet but I think with the factory 320gr @ 2000fps it would edge them out ?

I load my .375Ex 2 1/2in higher but less than max as I use in Lee Speeds & Steyr rifles.

From the 'net:

Type	Rifle
Place of origin	United Kingdom
Designer	Holland & Holland
Designed	1905
Produced	1905
Case type	Belted, bottleneck
Bullet diameter	.375 in (9.5 mm)
Neck diameter	.397 in (10.1 mm)
Shoulder diameter	.435 in (11.0 mm)
Base diameter	.470 in (11.9 mm)
Rim diameter	.466 in (11.8 mm)
Case length	2.5 in (64 mm)
Overall length	3 in (76 mm)

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Production history​

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Specifications​

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Ballistic performance

Bullet weight/type	Velocity	Energy
270 gr (17 g)	2,150 ft/s (660 m/s)
235 gr (15 g)	2,400 ft/s (730 m/s)	2,840 ft·lbf (3,850 J)

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Test barrel length: 27 inches
Source(s): Kynoch[1] & Barnes & Amber.[2]​

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The .400/375 Belted Nitro Express, also known as the .400/375 Holland & Holland and the .375 Velopex is a rifle cartridge designed by Holland & Holland and introduced in 1905.
The .400/375 Belted Nitro Express was developed to compete with the 9.5 X 56 mm Mannlicher Schoenauer, marketed in the UK and British Empire as the .375 Rimless Nitro Express 2 1⁄4 inch.

The cartridge is unique in that it was the first ever cartridge to use a belted rim. The addition of a belt to a rimless cartridge design provided the advantage of allowing for correct headspacing of highly tapered cartridges (an advantage of rimmed cartridges) and smooth feeding through magazine rifles (the advantage of rimless cartridges)

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I just received a set of CN4D dies and went through the same thing, they call them 9.5 X 56 and and assured me that they are the same as 9.5 X 57. I loaded up 20 rounds and they work perfect.

The proprietary cartridge for M1910 Mannlicher Schoenauers has gone by many names in several catalogs and listings at different times over the last century and a bit.

Among the popular designations has been 9.5X57, 9.5X56, .375 Nitro Express Rimless, .375 RNE (Rimless Nitro Express), and others.

Note listings for .375 Nitro Express tend to show powder charges two grains lighter than those for 9.5X57 cartridge which is otherwise identical.

Some measure bore by groove dimension, others by land. Some measure case length to bottom of case rim, others to top of rim. Conversions from metric to inch or vice versa have been 'rounded' differently.


Stoeger, 1939:

Also Stoeger 1939:

Also from 1939 Stoeger - note 6.5X54 listed as '6.7', 8X56 as '8.2'.

Stoeger, 1939 - Note '6.5X53' for DWM477.

Westley Richards, 1912:

Westley Richards 1937 - 38:

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

For the fire forming..

Thank you for detailed response.

More valuable information for the community.