Groups for different bullet/loads?

Ray B

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I'm wondering about the accuracy of double rifle barrels. I understand that the barrels are regulated to shoot specific bullet/velocities from both barrels to a specific point at a specific distance. What I am wondering is for bullets of reduced weight and velocity- will go to a reasonably small grouping "somewhere"? Say a rifle is regulated for 500 grain bullets at 2100 fps to group bullets from both barrels at 50 yards. If 350 grain bullets are loaded to 1800 fps the barrels would shoot the bullets to a different location, but could the grouping of bullets fired from each barrel go to a small grouping, even if it may be 3 feet to the left and low for the one barrel and two feet and high for the other barrel?
 
75% rule...
 
I haven’t a clue, but I’m very interested in knowing the answer to this.
 
Properly regulated double should not cross but stay parralel....very few makers can achieve this....
 
He knows more than most on the point....
 
Reading the article I'm unsure of the definition of accuracy. Considering the context it seems to mean the maintenance of groups between the two barrels. What I am asking is: will say the right barrel of a DR place bullets in similar fashion to a single barrel rifle- that is, bullets of different weights and velocities will go to different impact points and with varying degrees of accuracy, but with some experimentation a load could be learned that would give acceptable accuracy, without regard for where the same load may impact when fired from the left barrel.
 
Yes, Ray B, your question is indeed different from the one IvW is answering ;)

To be specific, the 75% rule quoted by IvW applies to attempts to shoot lighter bullets TO THE SAME POINT OF IMPACT and IN THE SAME COMPOSITE RIGHT & LEFT BARRELS GROUP SIZE, i.e. WITH THE SAME REGULATION as original loads. It indeed works well in some rifles in some calibers, and less so in other rifles in other calibers.

Your question Ray B, if I understand it well, is whether loads with various bullets weights and various velocities can be designed to use the right barrel as a single shot "without regard for where the same load may impact when fired from the left barrel."

The answer is generally "yes", within the same limitations as the usual load development for single barrel rifles. For example, bullet weight and powder charge must more or less corelate; bullet length and rifling twist must be compatible; etc. Within reasonable parameters, and unless extreme velocities (high or low) are pursued, there is no issue with getting accuracy from the individual barrels of a double, regardless of load. For example a 500 gr .458 TSX will generally group as well in a .450 NE double as a 450 gr .458 TSX, although at a different point of impact, but this may or may not be the case with a 250 gr .458 TSX.

Please note however that precautions must be taken (such as using a filler) with light loads.

To a point, this discussion is deeply connected, although in reverse, to the usual discussion about regulation, where the issue is the grouping together of the right barrel group with the left barrel group.

I believe that the following pics will help illustrate:

1) Here, with this Hornady 500 gr DGS load, my Krieghoff .470 NE right barrel groups very well, and the left barrel also groups very well, but the two groups are not together. Each barrel shoots well, but this particular load does not regulate very well in this rifle because the two barrels are a little over 4" apart at 50 yards. This load is still well within "minute of Buffalo or Elephant body shot", but would not be ideal for an elephant frontal brain shot, although still marginally acceptable for a side brain shot. However, each barrel, used individually, would be deadly on Duiker at 200 yards with a properly sighted scope on either barrel. This example likely illustrates Ray B's question.

.470 Hornady 500 gr DGS 50 yards - Red dot before 3 clicks left.jpg


This load with the Barnes 500 gr Banded Solid behaves similarly.

.470 Barnes 500 gr Banded Solid 50 yards - Red dot.jpg


2) Here, with this Woodleigh 500 gr FMJ ("solid") load, my Krieghoff .470 NE right barrel groups well, and the left barrel also groups well, and the two groups are reasonably together (2") at 50 yards. Each barrel is accurate, and the load is quite acceptable for this rifle for any DG hunting out to 75 yards, but could be limited for small PG at 150 yards.

.470 Norma PH 500 gr Woodleigh FMJ 50 yards Actual Target - Red dot before 3 clicks left.jpg


3) Here, with this Woodleigh 500 gr RNSN ("soft") load, my Krieghoff .470 NE right barrel and left barrel group very well together at 50 yards, but each barrel individually behaves differently. The right barrel strings vertically, but the left barrel strings horizontally. Each barrel is accurate, and the load is acceptable for this rifle, but in fact not really better than the "solid" load above.

.470 Norma PH 500 gr Woodleigh RNSN 50 yards Actual Target - Red dot before 3 clicks left.jpg


Note: all three loads were subsequently centered by moving the composite groups 3" left by clicking 3 clicks on the Leica Tempus red dot.

4) Here, with this 500 gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid load, my Krieghoff .470 NE right barrel and left barrel group well individually and together at 50 yards, although the left barrel shoots higher than the right barrel, and although both barrels shoot to a different point of impact compared to both Hornady DGS and Woodleigh FMJ or RNSN. This bullet/load is likely to disperse vertically significantly at 100 yards, hence is not ideal for this rifle.

.470 Federal 500 gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid 50 yards before 3 clicks left.JPG


This load with the Barnes 500 gr TSX behaves somewhat similarly, but shoots at roughly the same point of impact as Hornady DGS, Woodleigh FMJ or RNSN and Barnes Banded Solid.

.470 Barnes 500 gr TSX 50 yards - Red dot.jpg


In summary, if the double rifle is to be used as a single shot rifle (which is typically done for longer range shooting when it is scoped), it is generally easy to develop a load that groups well in one individual barrel, typically the right one because it fires with the first trigger on most side by side doubles (designed for right handed shooters), with whatever bullet of choice (within reasonable parameters), and to sight that specific barrel to the scope point of aim.

I hope this answers the question :)
 
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Yes, it does. I should have stated my goal rather than a general question as it would have been clearer what I was seeking. I have a 470 NE Rigby that regulates well with 500 gr Woodleighs at 2050 fps. My goal is to have practice/familiarization load using 275 - 400 grain Speer bullets that are actually designed for the 480 Ruger handgun. the MV would be similar to the full power loads so there shouldn't be a problem with spin rates. Even if the load wasn't particularly accurate it would work to build muscle memory with rifle use but it would be nice to have some measure of how well I'm shooting- so if I know that the load groups into a few inches at 50 yards, even if it prints several inches away from where the rifle groups the Woodleighs I can adjust the sight picture for the target- i.e. If the right barrel groups the Speers 5 inches to the left of Woodleighs then I aim at the right side of the target and land the bullets in the black. But this is only for practice- for any animal I'd be using the Woodleighs at regulated velocity.
 
I have just returned my Chapuis to JJ for regulation. I found while my first right barrel shoots bullseye each time at 50 yards my left barrel is 5 inches high and 2 inches left. Knowing this placing my red dot on the bullseye and then with great speed accounting for the left barrel group I hold roughly 5 inches high and 2 inches left I can place both shots within half inch but I hate doing that so I am hoping JJ can fix the problem. Yes same bullet and powder grains
 
The 75% rule could apply to the 400 gr load, Ray B. 500 gr x .75 = 375 gr. If you are lucky, 375 gr could be close enough to 400 gr in your rifle and the same powder charge as used with the 500 gr bullet may send the 400 gr slugs more or less to the same point of impact. It is worth trying...

The 275 gr bullet will definitely be a different story. Be careful to not underload the shell, and think hard about using a cork wad and dacron filler to prevent potentially catastrophic erratic propellant burn, being aware that a number of well documented cases of “ringed chambers” have resulted from the use of fillers...

See
Also, if memory serves, the .470 NE bullets are nominally .474" while the .480 Ruger bullets are .475"...
 

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The 75% rule works and a bit less so with the reverse 75% rule.
That said, there is another bit of wisdom in the world of double rifles that is not disucssed much or at all: the larger the bore the more forgiving a double rifle is when it comes to accuracy with various loads. Change the powder load or type, change the bulelt weight in a double of .275 or .300 and you'll print bullets all over the target. Do the same thing to a .400 caliber and the groups are not as large. Move up to .500 and the groups shrink. In my .600 and 8- and 4-bores i can change nearly anything and accurace remains the same. In the 8s and 4s shooting a ball or conical does not change accuracy. Neither does a change from smokeless to 3F black.
 
I have just returned my Chapuis to JJ for regulation. I found while my first right barrel shoots bullseye each time at 50 yards my left barrel is 5 inches high and 2 inches left. Knowing this placing my red dot on the bullseye and then with great speed accounting for the left barrel group I hold roughly 5 inches high and 2 inches left I can place both shots within half inch but I hate doing that so I am hoping JJ can fix the problem. Yes same bullet and powder grains
If don't mind me asking how much is JJ charging you for the work?
 

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