Fail to fire question

[fourfive8]

Failed to fire from the very beginning. The New Haven rifles use a different spring than the FN rifles, at least the man at Wolff gun springs told that. I’ve only fired 15 rounds with the new spring, so I can’t be sure it’s fixed.

I hope the problem is fixed! It really is one of the worst type feelings about any kind of gun that has acted up and especially one that may be used for serious DG hunting. It's always in the back of the mind. I've had a couple in the past that acted up like that.

The more rounds without a hiccup the better of course. A test I've done after working on bolts and strikers and springs and such is to fire a few of the toughest to ignite primers available. I figure that if it fires those with no problem it's likely good to go with normal, easier to ignite softer primers.

The CCI 34 is a large rifle primer with a thicker/harder cup specifically designed to prevent "slam fires" in military type auto loaders where the phenomenon is possible. I just load up two or three in empty, resized cases and fire them. I then do the same same with regular primers.

Left is an empty, resized case fired with CCI 34 primer considered to have one of the hardest cups. Right is an identical empty, resized case fired with a Win primer considered about average for ease of ignition and cup hardness. Note the very small pin dent in the CCI 34 primer compared to the more normal sized pin dent in the Win primer. And even the relatively small primer impulse appeared to slightly flatten the cup against the bolt face in the Win example.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I’ve fired 35 or so round with no FTF so I have high hopes. I hope to hunt buff with it someday so I really want it to go bang when I pull the trigger.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

My Winchester safari express 375 has been failing to fire way more than a comfortable amount lately, and I have some questions.
I roll my own ammo and CCI 250 and Remington large rifle magnum primers have both failed,I feel that eliminated the primers being the problem but I suppose it still could be. The FTF problem has happened with Norma Winchester and PPU brass. I’ve never had a FTF with my A square or Remington brass. Could it be the brass? Could the primer pockets be too deep and causing a high primer? I clean the primer pockets ever loading
Sometimes a second strike will ignite it and sometimes it won’t. I have a hard time believing three different lots of brass to have the same problem. I seat the primers in the exact same manner every time.
The only common variable is the rifle. It’s happened since it was new and I keep it clean. I’ve ordered a new firing pin spring, and the pin seems to come through the bolt far enough. Also the brass isn’t stretching bad so I’m assuming the headspace is ok.
Thanks for the help!

@Wyatt Smith
Young mister Smith sound like you have checked most things.
When you checked the pin protrusion did you do it once or multiple times as once may seem fine the sad 2,3,4 etc but may fail another time. Dismantle the bolt and clean and check for any burs. Give bolt body a light polish inside and the fireing pin as well. Only apply a VERY LIGHT coating of oil. Reassemble and try again. Also measure fireing pin protrusion using feelers gauges for correct protrusion. Replace spring as they are cheap.
Some one else had the same issue as you turned out the be spring plus fireing pin protrusion as I told him. A 10 minute fix by a good gunsmith.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Do you think my pin is too short, Or is it something else?

@Wyatt Smith
The pin is definitely not to short. If you aren't getting enough protrusion a gunsmith will either turn the pin down a milli poofteenth or enlarge the firing pin hole. With the bolt completely disassembled place the fireing pin in the bolt body sans spring and cocking peice then measure the protrusion .063 to .068 should be fine. If not see your gunsmith to fix.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Ses, good point. I forgot about primers backing out on low pressure. It'd have to be a primer that the compound and anvil were removed.

@Hogpatrol
Primers will back out and stay out for 2 reasons only
A low pressure load that fails to seal on fireing and
An oversized firing pinned hole that allows the primer to move back even in normal fireing. Most common in older lever actions and the 1885 lowall and hiwall.
Firing a primer in an empty case shoulnt allow it to happen as the prime doesn't create enough pressure for this to happen . I have fired cases like that countless times and have never experienced that problem . The only time I have had that problem was with a factory round that didn't have a flash hole punched in it. It is the gasses from the powder charge that take the path of least resistance ie case mouth and flash hole that cause the prime to move. No resistance from powder or projectiles no rearward movement as the pressure is expelled thru the empty flash hole.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

All good points worthy of consideration so far in this thread about primer seating.

I have used a hand tool for years... stumbled into an old Sinclair type tool years ago for about $10 and never looked back. As the primer touches bottom, the leverage is high near the bottom of the stroke so "feel" is maximized. IMO, correct seating is knowing how to "feel" the best primer seating. That best fit and feel is going to be slightly different depending on the slight variations between the different cases and primers and the number of firings and pressure a case has been cycled through.

Ideally, you should feel the primer touch bottom... then add just a small "touch" more pressure- ever so slightly compressing bottom of primer to case's primer pocket bottom. Once seated the primer face should be just a "skosh" below flush with the cartridge base.

I've attempted to capture "correct" primer seating in pics- two angles plus a pic of the tool I use. Cartridge/primer on left after normal pressure firing and same cartridge/primer on right after correct seating.

View attachment 314955View attachment 314957View attachment 314958

@458
When you examine a primer very closely you will see the anvil is not quite seated into the primer so that final little push actually seats the anvil to the base of the primer. Lee actually advise against using to many of one brand of primer in their tray and applying to much pressure as it can actually detonate the primer being seated and cause a chain reaction.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

@Hogpatrol
Primers will back out and stay out for 2 reasons only
A low pressure load that fails to seal on fireing and
An oversized firing pinned hole that allows the primer to move back even in normal fireing. Most common in older lever actions and the 1885 lowall and hiwall.
Firing a primer in an empty case shoulnt allow it to happen as the prime doesn't create enough pressure for this to happen . I have fired cases like that countless times and have never experienced that problem . The only time I have had that problem was with a factory round that didn't have a flash hole punched in it. It is the gasses from the powder charge that take the path of least resistance ie case mouth and flash hole that cause the prime to move. No resistance from powder or projectiles no rearward movement as the pressure is expelled thru the empty flash hole.
Bob

and excessive headspace.
could be excessive case sizing, or gun related.
bruce.

 

[Longwalker]

So many comments above about excessive headspace related to excessive sizing or shoulder position are off the mark. The .375 H&H is a BELTED cartridge, and headspace is determined by the belt. You will get longer case life if you don't push the case shoulder back too much when resizing, but failure to fire should never be an issue regardless of where the shoulder is located.

 

[sestoppelman]

I disagree and its stated well in this article excerpt from Guns and Ammo.

"Misfires can even be caused by excessive headspace. Basically, headspace is the measurement from the slope of the shoulder to the base of the cartridge, or the corresponding dimensions in the rifle chamber. Excessive chamber headspace allows the cartridge to be farther forward in the chamber away from the firing pin, or it can allow for the cartridge case to move forward when struck by the firing pin. Certainly, this can affect ignition reliability and cause misfires."

It cannot be totally dismissed as a possibility.

 

[bruce moulds]

in the case of belted cases, they headspace off the belt, or should.
if the reamer is correct, and belt headspace is too long, so will shoulder headspace.
in either situation, very poor gunsmithing.
whoever did that if it is the case should be locked in the stocks and pelted with eggs and tomatoes for a week.
bruce.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

It was the firing pin spring for the rifle in the OP, but I’ve since sold it.

 

[Longwalker]

I disagree and its stated well in this article excerpt from Guns and Ammo.

"Misfires can even be caused by excessive headspace. Basically, headspace is the measurement from the slope of the shoulder to the base of the cartridge, or the corresponding dimensions in the rifle chamber. Excessive chamber headspace allows the cartridge to be farther forward in the chamber away from the firing pin, or it can allow for the cartridge case to move forward when struck by the firing pin. Certainly, this can affect ignition reliability and cause misfires."

It cannot be totally dismissed as a possibility.

yes, you are correct if discussing normal "rimless" cartridges that also have a "shoulder". But for belted, or rimmed cartridges, the shoulder dimension is irrelevant. It is certainly desirable to size a belted case that actually has a shoulder to have some shoulder contact to reduce case stretching and other "headspace" issues, but the design of those cases / chambers does not specify the measurement from base to shoulder datum line. It is easy to apply the the normal practice in error from rimless / beltless cases to less normal "others". But the same assumptions do not apply.

 

[GuttormG]

Since PPU-brass is mentioned; I find PPU the be some of the best brass available. Finnishe and price compareded to what for instance Norma sell as empty brass (dented, uneven lengths, priced like gold..) the choice is pretty easy..

Also, for those who have an older 9,3*62-PPU brass has the correct dimensions (all other makers use 30-06 basic brass).

 

[Dr Ray]

I suggest that the headspace needs checking

 

[Hogpatrol]

IIRC, except for one Weatherby cartridge, all belted cartridge chambers use the same headspace gauge.

 

[crs]

Wyatt,
If you still have FTF after you have tried all the above exhaustive considerations and suggestions please consider Federal primers.
The only FTF in my lifetime was on a new rifle which fired "most of the time" and sometimes FTF when I had a good "bead" on an animal. A casual discussion of this with a fellow dove hunter who was also a top Cowboy Action Shooter solved my problem. He explained that all serious CAS competitors had tuned their guns to fire with the least amount of friction and lightest primer strike and that they all used Federal primers as they required the least powerful strike to fire. He also volunteered to "slick up" the action of my still new rifle for me at a very reasonable price. I agreed and he did it.

Bottom line was a new rifle with the action smoothness and broken in trigger of a 100 year old gun and a switch to Federal ammo and to Federal primers for hand loads. Plus never another FTF! This rifle has taken much game including African DG with no problems. I still use Federal Match Magnum primers for all my full case and compressed loads. Clean and complete burn + 35 to 45 fps higher velocity than any other magnum primers.

PS the next year his son won the Texas CAS top gun title. It must run in the family!

Best wishes curing your FTF issue.