Elephant caliber

[skydiver386]

There is a lot of condescending on this site. Only those who hunt "wild" Africa with double rifles while wearing thousand dollar felt hats and Rolex watches can speak with any authority. Or at least they think so. Their "big shot disease" seems to be endemic to a certain geographical area in the US, but has spread to a worldwide pandemic. Thankfully my dad, who was raised in the Depression hunting rabbits and bullfrogs to feed the family, vaccinated me early on. "Confirmation bias" is an obvious symptom.

As to shooting through a collection of thumper guns to see which is the biggest the shooter can handle: that's baloney. Just another big shot "bigger-is-best" symptom manifestation. I shot my first buffalo with a lowly 375 H&H plain-jane bolt rifle. One shot through the heart and it was done. And I had previously shot that rifle just once at the range earlier that day. Never fired a thumper gun before that (except one novelty shot with 500 Nitro as a teenager). I killed my second buffalo with the same rental rifle, again with just one shot to check zero before hunting. Put two shots into him but the first was mortal. Know how to shoot ... in the field. I think that is more important than what you shoot. Or how much you can spend. I'm confident my "homemade" 404J could kill an elephant if I wanted it to ... because I know how to shoot (note that I did not say "know how to shoot it"). 404J is certified legal for dangerous game by authorities who know more about killing those animals than I ever will. That's good enough for me. I don't need to waste a lot of money and my fragile retinas blasting away a truckload of different guns to determine my threshold for pain. Yes, some people need to see how big they can grow. That's their hobby and they enjoy it. Yay for them. Just don't criticize others who don't share the same passion.

You are welcome to your opinion, and I have mine.

There was nothing condescending in any post on this thread. Certainly not mine. I've never made over $50,000 in one year, I don't own a Rolex and I don't shoot a double rifle, but on the other hand I don't look down on those that do.

Nobody on this thread has criticized your rifle, or your choice of the 404.

I've offered several times to let others shoot my rifles, and somehow you think this is an egotistical manifestation of "Big Shot Disease"?

My girlfriend Tina has fired my 450 Rigby with Grizzly Ammunition factory loads of the 450gr Barnes TSX at 2450 fps. She said she actually prefers the 450 over the lighter 375 rifle, and these are her words not mine. She's an average woman in her mid 60's, and only started shooting in the last few years. If she can handle such a rifle, I'd bet most average men in good shape could do the same.

As for on target performance of the larger 416, 458, and 505 calibers, nearly every experienced PH will tell you the same thing. With an identically placed shot, the more powerful calibers have a noticably greater effect, and leads to quicker death and minimal suffering. On backing shots on elephant, the larger calibers are the better choice, as you may only have a shot at the hips from an odd angle as the Elephant is running away. The 375 is marginal in this situation, and that has been clearly stated by some of the most experienced men in Africa.

In his book The Perfect Shot, Kevin Robertson explains that the larger calibers are more effective than the smaller ones, IF THE SHOOTER CAN HANDLE THEM. He repeats this several times in nearly every chapter of his book. Craig Bodington has said the same thing, that there is a noticeable and undeniable difference between the 9.3/375's, the 416's, the 458's, and up, BUT ONLY IF THE SHOOTER CAN HANDLE THEM.

I can easily handle the more powerful 458's, so why do you criticize me?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You are welcome to your opinion, and I have mine.

There was nothing condescending in any post on this thread. Certainly not mine. I've never made over $50,000 in one year, I don't own a Rolex and I don't shoot a double rifle, but on the other hand I don't look down on those that do.

Nobody on this thread has criticized your rifle, or your choice of the 404.

I've offered several times to let others shoot my rifles, and somehow you think this is an egotistical manifestation of "Big Shot Disease"?

My girlfriend Tina has fired my 450 Rigby with Grizzly Ammunition factory loads of the 450gr Barnes TSX at 2450 fps. She said she actually prefers the 450 over the lighter 375 rifle, and these are her words not mine. She's an average woman in her mid 60's, and only started shooting in the last few years. If she can handle such a rifle, I'd bet most average men in good shape could do the same.

As for on target performance of the larger 416, 458, and 505 calibers, nearly every experienced PH will tell you the same thing. With an identically placed shot, the more powerful calibers have a noticably greater effect, and leads to quicker death and minimal suffering. On backing shots on elephant, the larger calibers are the better choice, as you may only have a shot at the hips from an odd angle as the Elephant is running away. The 375 is marginal in this situation, and that has been clearly stated by some of the most experienced men in Africa.

In his book The Perfect Shot, Kevin Robertson explains that the larger calibers are more effective than the smaller ones, IF THE SHOOTER CAN HANDLE THEM. He repeats this several times in nearly every chapter of his book. Craig Bodington has said the same thing, that there is a noticeable and undeniable difference between the 9.3/375's, the 416's, the 458's, and up, BUT ONLY IF THE SHOOTER CAN HANDLE THEM.

I can easily handle the more powerful 458's, so why do you criticize me?

Where did you get the idea I was criticizing you? Read the context of the post I was responding to. You didn't see anything condescending in this thread? Really? Well okay.

You enjoy shooting your 458s. Good for you. I don't have to try one to know I don't like them. More recoil than I need to beat myself up with and more gun than necessary to do the job. I'll take Harry Selby's word for that over Boddington and Kevin Robertson. Three retina detachments have impressed on me the potential foolishness of shooting too much gun. And that's only one of the drawbacks. But you and your gal go enjoy yourselves. That's your right.

 

[SRvet]

The 458 lott with a 700 gr lead bullet will do what a 500 double does so well.

Is that even a thing??? Heaviest I have seen is 550 grain...

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

@skydiver386 its time for you to press the trigger and marry Tina @tinktink12! What are you waiting for brother, all of AH are waiting for this event!!

 

[Tex .416]

My girlfriend Tina has fired my 450 Rigby with Grizzly Ammunition factory loads of the 450gr Barnes TSX at 2450 fps. She said she actually prefers the 450 over the lighter 375 rifle, and these are her words not mine. She's an average woman in her mid 60's, and only started shooting in the last few years. If she can handle such a rifle, I'd bet most average men in good shape could do the same.

She sounds like a heck of a woman!

Time to a ring on her and don’t let her get away!

 

[Tex .416]

Where did you get the idea I was criticizing you? Read the context of the post I was responding to. You didn't see anything condescending in this thread? Really? Well okay.

You enjoy shooting your 458s. Good for you. I don't have to try one to know I don't like them. More recoil than I need to beat myself up with and more gun than necessary to do the job. I'll take Harry Selby's word for that over Boddington and Kevin Robertson. Three retina detachments have impressed on me the potential foolishness of shooting too much gun. And that's only one of the drawbacks. But you and your gal go enjoy yourselves. That's your right.

Ontario,

there is a very consistent pattern in your posts of criticizing and condemning others followed by espousing your moral superiority. The pattern repeats itself frequently. While the motivation seems unintentional, the pattern really does comes across as offensive and condescending. That you do not recognize or intend it is why I am trying to raise your mindfulness and awareness of the issue.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Releasing a shot from a heavy rifle is all about conditioning. My father was a Marine in WWII Pacific Theater and this weekend is an important weekend for me. After all this talk about an Elephant Caliber I decided to take my .500 Schüler to the range today. Thank goodness I was the only one there; I released a shot from a relatively light load of 600 grain at 2200 fps per my Garmin. It damn near knocked me down! As I wiped the tears from my eyes and said WTF. So, all that could be done was work the bolt and get back on that horse. After a magazine of being knocked down the tables turned and I embraced the recoil and did good work.

 

[skydiver386]

Where did you get the idea I was criticizing you? Read the context of the post I was responding to. You didn't see anything condescending in this thread? Really? Well okay.

You enjoy shooting your 458s. Good for you. I don't have to try one to know I don't like them. More recoil than I need to beat myself up with and more gun than necessary to do the job. I'll take Harry Selby's word for that over Boddington and Kevin Robertson. Three retina detachments have impressed on me the potential foolishness of shooting too much gun. And that's only one of the drawbacks. But you and your gal go enjoy yourselves. That's your right.

I know exactly who you were criticizing and why.

There is a lot of condescending on this site. Only those who hunt "wild" Africa with double rifles while wearing thousand dollar felt hats and Rolex watches can speak with any authority. Or at least they think so. Their "big shot disease" seems to be endemic to a certain geographical area in the US, but has spread to a worldwide pandemic.

This was at least partially aimed at @Tanks .

As to shooting through a collection of thumper guns to see which is the biggest the shooter can handle: that's baloney. Just another big shot "bigger-is-best" symptom manifestation.

This was quite obviously aimed at me.

I don't need to waste a lot of money and my fragile retinas blasting away a truckload of different guns to determine my threshold for pain. Yes, some people need to see how big they can grow. That's their hobby and they enjoy it. Yay for them.

Again, it's obvious that I am one of the people this is directed at. Anyone can go back through this thread and read it.

Maybe you should think a little harder about how YOU come across as condescending in your posts and reread them before you click the blue Post reply button.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Cut the crap @skydiver386 and propose to Tina!

 

[skydiver386]

Cut the crap @skydiver386 and propose to Tina!

She says I scratch, snore, grunt, burp and fart to much.

 

[M70375!]

I like the 416 Rem for elephants and it also make an awesome plains game rifle as well as being useful in North America as well. It has more reach than the 458s

 

[tinktink12]

She says I scratch, snore, grunt, burp and fart to much.

I appreciate all your kind comments. I am a heck of a woman!
I grew up with 5 brothers and nobody included me in their hunting or fishing trips. Since I met @skydiver386 he has taught me to fish and hunt. He started me off hunting with smaller calibers and slowly increasing the calibers and recoil. Because of this, he got me to love the sport instead of be afraid.
As for the emanating of large sounds and potent gases, this is all true too.

 

[Tanks]

Only those who hunt "wild" Africa with double rifles while wearing thousand dollar felt hats and Rolex watches can speak with any authority.

For the record, as seen in the picture below, I wear an Apple Watch Ultra (1. gen) while hunting and have never worn a Rolex while hunting.

Also, how many elephants have you shot as inquiring minds might want to know details from the well of experience you are basing your statements regarding caliber adequacy.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

I appreciate all your kind comments. I am a heck of a woman!
I grew up with 5 brothers and nobody included me in their hunting or fishing trips. Since I met @skydiver386 he has taught me to fish and hunt. He started me off hunting with smaller calibers and slowly increasing the calibers and recoil. Because of this, he got me to love the sport instead of be afraid.
As for the emanating of large sounds and potent gases, this is all true too.

Okay. Close the deal @skydiver386!!!!!! tinktink12 has given you the Green Light! DON’T MESS THIS UP!!!!!!!! You can thank me later.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Where did you get the idea I was criticizing you? Read the context of the post I was responding to. You didn't see anything condescending in this thread? Really? Well okay.

You enjoy shooting your 458s. Good for you. I don't have to try one to know I don't like them. More recoil than I need to beat myself up with and more gun than necessary to do the job. I'll take Harry Selby's word for that over Boddington and Kevin Robertson. Three retina detachments have impressed on me the potential foolishness of shooting too much gun. And that's only one of the drawbacks. But you and your gal go enjoy yourselves. That's your right.

@skydiver386 he’s talking about myself, @375Fox @Tanks and a few others who he thinks suffers from “Big Shot Disease”. He believes we’re condescending in our posts because we suggest “Wild” Africa is different than game ranches, we have and hunt with nice rifles including doubles, or spend money on things we value that he feel is frivolous. None of us had said anyone needs thousand dollar hats (don’t own), needs to wear a Rolex when hunting (I don’t wear one), or own/shoot a double (I own a couple, but in this very thread suggested the OP’s 375 was more than adequate). Additionally there are several member of AH who I know/trust that I’ve offered to let shoot my WR Drop Lock and Rigbys. There’s one member I’ve even offered to let borrow my WR for his upcoming African Hunts.

The irony is @Ontario Hunter perfectly demonstrated the value in the advice “use the biggest caliber you can shoot well”. We all know he loves his 404, but he also highlighted how it’s not vague or useless advice with an example of him knowing he doesn’t need to move up or try a 458 (or bigger) and gave a legitimate health reason for why he shouldn’t. All in response to a post he felt was condescending by calling out the theoretical of shooting bunnies and elephants or size relation to caliber by someone who hasn’t done what they’re attempting to use math for. To further disprove the theoretical math on size, I’d love the “expert” opinion from @Ontario Hunter “expert” on what he thinks is tougher/harder to kill Moose, Elk, or Whitetail? Does one require a significantly bigger caliber than the other or is one more notorious for being harder to recover and get a follow-up shot on?

 

[skydiver386]

@skydiver386 he’s talking about myself, @375Fox @Tanks and a few others who he thinks suffers from “Big Shot Disease”. He believes we’re condescending in our posts because we suggest “Wild” Africa is different than game ranches, we have and hunt with nice rifles including doubles, or spend money on things we value that he feel is frivolous. None of us had said anyone needs thousand dollar hats (don’t own), needs to wear a Rolex when hunting (I don’t wear one), or own/shoot a double (I own a couple, but in this very thread suggested the OP’s 375 was more than adequate). Additionally there are several member of AH who I know/trust that I’ve offered to let shoot my WR Drop Lock and Rigbys. There’s one member I’ve even offered to let borrow my WR for his upcoming African Hunts.

The irony is @Ontario Hunter perfectly demonstrated the value in the advice “use the biggest caliber you can shoot well”. We all know he loves his 404, but he also highlighted how it’s not vague or useless advice with an example of him knowing he doesn’t need to move up or try a 458 (or bigger) and gave a legitimate health reason for why he shouldn’t. All in response to a post he felt was condescending by calling out the theoretical of shooting bunnies and elephants or size relation to caliber by someone who hasn’t done what they’re attempting to use math for. To further disprove the theoretical math on size, I’d love the “expert” opinion from @Ontario Hunter “expert” on what he thinks is tougher/harder to kill Moose, Elk, or Whitetail? Does one require a significantly bigger caliber than the other or is one more notorious for being harder to recover and get a follow-up shot on?

I just had a stroke of genius. Given several post reference to the ultimate Dangerous Game, the KILLER RABBIT, and it's ability to soak up punishment that exceeds Pachyderms, we will now include a new target in our lineup at the upcoming Big Bore Shoot.

This one is called "Bad Hare Day" and only the 577NE and above will be fired at it.

Those in possession of appropriate ATF paperwork and a supply of Holy Hand Grenades may also engage this target

 

[LimbNoMo]

$1000 felt hat in Texas is nothing special. At least between Labor Day and Easter.

Can’t believe you went after the Most Interesting Man like that. Stay Thirsty.

 

[Flipper Dude]

They are also known as a “Texas Timex” for good reason.