Double rifle or bolt action?

[Tanks]

Someone drove over his double and wrecked it. So he picked up the 416 Mauser 98 because he was in a spot and needed a gun fast. He liked it so much he never put it down ... for thirty some more years. I think the fact that Selby, a left hand shooter, stuck with that right hand bolt action speaks volumes about the inferior utility of a double rifle. Obviously, more shots in the gun meant more to Selby than two quick shots and a bit of nostalgia...

As @Hunter-Habib mentioned above if a double was not available to be purchased then there is no other choice but to go with a bolt.

"Inferior utility of a double rifle"? Sometimes the two quick shots are what is needed when one is being charged by an elephant at ten paces or multiple elephants. Of course, we all know from your previous posts that you can cycle and fire multiple accurate shots within a second, but not every PH is as proficient as you.

 

[R eight]

I just recently completed my first bufffalo hunt in South Africa with my 416 Rem Mag (Remington 700) and man do I want a double rifle now! The problem is money... I'm looking on the lower price spectrum for double rifles and even a Sabatti in 416 Rigby is $7000+ and I can find an importer who will place the order. My question is this, knowing I'm not made of money should I try to find a lower price double rifle or just save the money and hunt with my 416 Rem? Perhaps someone on this forum has a line on more affordable double rifles?View attachment 539704

I've been toying with the idea of a double for a few years. It's no longer a priority....but still on the wish list.....and not in the top 10.

I've decided that if I get a double then it will have to be from a company with an excellent reputation. I reckon I'd be looking at around $25K. Then I would have a rifle, in an action type, that I have absolutely no experience with in the field..... Am I going to take a new, unfamiliar rifle on a Dangerous Game hunt ? .....NO. So I'm going to have to shoot her a fair bit on the range to get in some practice with her ( probably shoot as many Big Game Rifle competitions that I can) and carry her around on a few local hunts after pigs, rabbits and anything else that needs shooting. And then I'd be ready to take her on the Big Hunt. Assuming that the rifle functions properly.

Or...

I can buy a brand new Rigby Big Game ( complete with the snobbery value of that London address ....I've always wanted a rifle with a London address ) and in an action type that I'm completely familiar with, that I know will function flawlessly, shoot and cost way less than a Heym 89.

Or

stick with a bolt rifle that I own, that will do the job.


I went and bought myself a Rigby. And after I knew that I had made the correct decision I sold my 602 and Sako 85. and bought more Rigby's and Blaser's.

I still haven't been to Africa. But I will, as soon as the North American hunts are done. I know I'll be carrying a Rigby....or a Blaser...nah the Rigby's when I go to Africa.

Now having said all that...if I win several million dollars in the lottery. I'm flying (First Class) to London, order a Rigby Double and head off to Tanzania for a $250K hunt. But, I'll also be taking the Rigby Big Games and a Blaser to hunt with.

 

[Pondoro]

I have been told several times by members on this site that I do not use a double “properly.”

I love doubles...I have 6 of them, from a .577BPE from year 1900 up to and including recently made 9,3x74R Gaucher and a .470 Krieghoff. Both the latter are scoped with QD mounts.. I can nurture my nostalgia with the older brit doubles as well as benefit from high quality optics.. Nothing wrong with that...eyesight not what it once was etc.

Bottom line...a quality scope will enhance the use of these rifles rifles a lot..!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I love doubles...I have 6 of them, from a .577BPE from year 1900 up to and including recently made 9,3x74R Gaucher and a .470 Krieghoff. Both the latter are scoped with QD mounts.. I can nurture my nostalgia with the older brit doubles as well as benefit from high quality optics.. Nothing wrong with that...eyesight not what it once was etc.

Bottom line...a quality scope will enhance the use of these rifles rifles a lot..!

You own a Gaucher ??? May I see it, Pondoro ? What cartridge did you get it regulated for ? 286Gr or 293Gr ?

 

[Pondoro]

Here it is...regulated with bonded RWS 293 grain cartridges..

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Here it is...regulated with bonded RWS 293 grain cartridges..

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The ideal leopard rifle

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

If there are, I'd wager a shiny new dime they know the difference between "cartridge" and "caliber", too.

My favourite is 'to, two and too'. As I recall from early school classes there was a fair amount of tolerance for numerical blunders, but sloppy grammar and spelling got the ruler on knuckle treatment every time. I have a work colleague that writes with no punctuation at all, just one sentence running into the next. Just lazy, drives me nuts. Now the challenge is errors on phone keyboards.

 

[Dewald]

Dose anyone on this site know the difference between advice and advise?!?

I’ll openly admit that I struggle with English spelling and grammar, especially when using predictive text on the iPad. To be fair it is not my first language. Afrikaans, German (at least for an Afrikaans speaker) and isiZulu are easier to write.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

As @Hunter-Habib mentioned above if a double was not available to be purchased then there is no other choice but to go with a bolt.

"Inferior utility of a double rifle"? Sometimes the two quick shots are what is needed when one is being charged by an elephant at ten paces or multiple elephants. Of course, we all know from your previous posts that you can cycle and fire multiple accurate shots within a second, but not every PH is as proficient as you.

I don't hunt elephant and quite sure I never will. But I understand Selby killed them just fine with his wrong-handed 416 Mauser 98. It is my understanding that elephant hunting typically requires two armed backup guns for each elephant to be harvested (often more than one client hunting same elephant). Usually backup is two experienced PHs. That's three rounds into it at ten paces (maybe more if there's a second client along) ... if somehow they let it get that close without firing a shot. I would not feel the least bit uncomfortable if both PH backup guns were bolt action of sufficient caliber.

If Selby could kill elephants and buffalo shooting them left-handed with a right-handed bolt rifle, I'm confident I can safely hunt buffalo shooting a right-handed bolt action right-handed ... even if I don't have Selby's experience.

What I have observed at the range, in the field, and especially on African YouTube videos, is shooters using double guns and autos too often rush the follow up shot ... and waste it. Every year I listen to "sky busters" unloading their auto guns at geese so fast three shots sound like one. I've heard guys shooting at moose with semis sound like they're firing M60s at Vietcong. So common to observe upland hunters with their fancy break open O/Us firing both shots so fast the bird could have been dead the first shot but shooter wouldn't have known it. And the African Cape buffalo "bangbang" double rifle videos with client's second shot always blowing up dirt way off target.

 

[Tanks]

...It is my understanding that elephant hunting typically requires two armed backup guns for each elephant to be harvested (often more than one client hunting same elephant). Usually backup is two experienced PHs. That's three rounds into it at ten paces (maybe more if there's a second client along) ... if somehow they let it get that close without firing a shot. I would not feel the least bit uncomfortable if both PH backup guns were bolt action of sufficient caliber.
...

I have hunted a number of elephants. Never had two backup PHs (Don't know anyone that has, maybe you are getting it mixed up with RSA CBL hunt videos ).. Never had the PH fire a shot. Also the ten paces or so I was talking about was a charge, with a bolt one has time enough for one shot, that is it. BTW, sometimes one does get pretty close in the jess to evaluate the elephant. I definitely have gotten within 10 yards or so of cows to see if they have calves etc..

The video below is the elephant I shot last August at about 20 - 30 meters or so. No follow up shot was needed and would have been impossible anyway as once it was down I did not have a shot into the vitals due to the foliage.

 

[Josh P]

Just a friendly reminder that we're here, generally, to enjoy a shared interest. The nuances of that shared enjoyment can differ amongst us, but nobody gets anything but frustration (and impaired reputation) from pointless cantankerous jousting. Choice of weapon and optics in and of themselves does not equate to an ethical or moral high ground from which to rain down disparagement on others of the community.

 

[Sourdough]

@Ontario Hunter you've never hunted elephant, or rhino, or lions, or leopards. You've never hunted with a double rifle. Your whole claim to fame is having hunted two Cape buffalo in South Africa, and of course reading books and watching YouTube videos. And you somehow think this qualifies you to offer your opinion on subjects of which you have no knowledge or experience? That is the height of arrogance.

 

[WAB]

There are a number of people on this forum who have hunted DG extensively and speak from a wealth of experience. I pay attention when they provide insight. Enough said.

 

[VertigoBE]

I have hunted a number of elephants. Never had two backup PHs (Don't know anyone that has, maybe you are getting it mixed up with RSA CBL hunt videos ).. Never had the PH fire a shot. Also the ten paces or so I was talking about was a charge, with a bolt one has time enough for one shot, that is it. BTW, sometimes one does get pretty close in the jess to evaluate the elephant. I definitely have gotten within 10 yards or so of cows to see if they have calves etc..

The video below is the elephant I shot last August at about 20 - 30 meters or so. No follow up shot was needed and would have been impossible anyway as once it was down I did not have a shot into the vitals due to the foliage.

That is excellent shooting form and result @Tanks. Well done.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter you've never hunted elephant, or rhino, or lions, or leopards. You've never hunted with a double rifle. Your whole claim to fame is having hunted two Cape buffalo in South Africa, and of course reading books and watching YouTube videos. And you somehow think this qualifies you to offer your opinion on subjects of which you have no knowledge or experience? That is the height of arrogance.

No, not arrogance. Just taking what Harry Selby said and did at face value. If he can kill buffalo with a wrong-handed bolt rifle, that kinda speaks volumes to me. No, I wouldn't dream of hunting buffalo right-handed with a left-hand rifle. The point being an expert could do it ... but he obviously could NOT do it at lightning "bangbang" speed. So how important should "bangbang" be to me? Selby said the best gun for a client is 375 and best gun for PH is 416. He didn't say it specifically but the implication is neither would be double rifles.

I regularly shoot honker triples every season. But I don't shoot them fast. Not sure I would be as proficient with a bolt shotgun but I sure shot a lot of triples with my 870 pump before it wore out. Super fast shooting is overrated. In my opinion, a gun that fits the shooter is more important.

 

[IvW]

It is all about competance with the chosen weapon and the caliber irrespective how big it is and or if it is a single shot, double or bolt.....if you cannot handle and shoot it well it is a club. ...

 

[Hunting Hitman]

I have hunted a number of elephants. Never had two backup PHs (Don't know anyone that has, maybe you are getting it mixed up with RSA CBL hunt videos ).. Never had the PH fire a shot. Also the ten paces or so I was talking about was a charge, with a bolt one has time enough for one shot, that is it. BTW, sometimes one does get pretty close in the jess to evaluate the elephant. I definitely have gotten within 10 yards or so of cows to see if they have calves etc..

The video below is the elephant I shot last August at about 20 - 30 meters or so. No follow up shot was needed and would have been impossible anyway as once it was down I did not have a shot into the vitals due to the foliage.

I was going to listen eagerly to your insight and knowledgeable explanations and then I saw that you were left handed... Nice shooting!

HH

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I have hunted a number of elephants. Never had two backup PHs (Don't know anyone that has, maybe you are getting it mixed up with RSA CBL hunt videos ).. Never had the PH fire a shot. Also the ten paces or so I was talking about was a charge, with a bolt one has time enough for one shot, that is it. BTW, sometimes one does get pretty close in the jess to evaluate the elephant. I definitely have gotten within 10 yards or so of cows to see if they have calves etc..

The video below is the elephant I shot last August at about 20 - 30 meters or so. No follow up shot was needed and would have been impossible anyway as once it was down I did not have a shot into the vitals due to the foliage.

Textbook, master class stuff.

 

[PerH]

When he filmed his psrt in the documentary,ehh movie " The Wild Geese" ,he had actually retired from acting, but then they said " would you like a safari as psrt of it " ,and then he and the doubles went once more with a Terai hat down to green and dark areas .

Nicely done sir! I made my statement because I had read his life story so I knew he was the real deal when it came to hunting DG in Africa

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

@Ontario Hunter, agreed, in the heat of the moment folks certainly might let fly on a second shot unnecessarily, but occasionally, and thank goodness it is only occasionally, that second shot does indeed need to be made virtually instantaneously, and it is vital. I have never had to do so, but carrying a double I know that I have the best chance to do so. Last year in Zimbabwe a PH was killed by a cow elephant. He got off a first shot and they found his bolt rifle with a second shot chambered but he never got the time to fire it. Although one instance is enough to make a case in such a situation I am sure there have been many, many more.
I too watch videos, I have seen two cases where an immediate second shot from a double pinned a departing buffalo. It may have not gone far and died anyway, but it may have been a followup situation too. I have seen two videos of elephant charges where the first shot from the double didn't stop it, but the second immediately after the first did.