Do not buy from Optics Planet!

[Beaufort]

Just a head's up that my PH ordered a Vortex scope from Optics Planet and was going to have it shipped to me. I was going to bring it to him this Saturday as I fly to South Africa for my plains game safari. He used his office address in Texas as the purchaser and paid for two-day shipping to me in SC. The scope has not arrived and I called Optics Planet to check on the status. They told me the order was cancelled. When I asked who cancelled it, they stated that it was cancelled by their internal risk management team.

Did they send the PH an email asking for any additional information they might need to "feel better" about the sale?

No

Did they send the PH an email letting him know that the scope would not be coming?

No

They simply cancelled the sale and left him to wonder why it hadn't shown up.

There's a lot of retailers who will sell you optics. I recommend using anyone other than Optics Planet.

 

[JimP]

I would wager that something that
that your PH put in for his information flagged it as unable for him to purchase. Such as his billing address.

It would of been better if you would of just purchased it and had him reimburse you on a item that is not exportable.

But the no email is the head scratcher.

 

[TTundra]

Whole bunch of regulations on scopes. Obviously you're aware US consumer retailers can't just ship riflescopes to RSA, hence the redirect. Was this a regulated optic/ITAR as well?

Standard procedure for any order for opticsplanet with an international IP is to review it. I'm sure they saw RSA as the origin and shipping to a different name and address. Big red flags for any retailer.

For future reference, if bringing over an item for your outfitter or PH and legal to do so either by not being regulation or needed and export permit, buy it yourself and get reimbursed or gift it.

OP won't risk a government investigation or fine for that. (Ask me how I know )

 

[VertigoBE]

Are these rules only applicable on itar stuff? Or will any old non illuminated scope raise questions if purchased by someone abroad but delivered in the us? Just an academic question

 

[TTundra]

Are these rules only applicable on itar stuff? Or will any old non illuminated scope raise questions if purchased by someone abroad but delivered in the us? Just an academic question

Different regulations for different countries. Some need export permits and some are just a no-no. ITAR items are almost always a no, government sales allowed with government approval.

@mdwest knows a thing or two on this and may jump in...

 

[VertigoBE]

So, hypothetically, if I were to purchase a scope in the US, that I cannot find in Europe . I will not be able to get direct delivery to my home? Nor can I send it to a friendly acquaintance in the us for safekeeping?

 

[TTundra]

So, hypothetically, if I were to purchase a scope in the US, that I cannot find in Europe . I will not be able to get direct delivery to my home? Nor can I send it to a friendly acquaintance in the us for safekeeping?

Depends on specific country and specific scope. I believe much of Europe is OK for Non ITAR riflescopes. Still a no for any ITAR scopes.

 

[mdwest]

Other than a handful of military specific optics that are found under Category XII of the US Munitions List, all scopes have been removed from ITAR (state dept) regulation and can be exported (this is a fairly recent change)...

That said.. the Dept of Commerce now regulates their export..

Getting a Vortex optic (most of them) out of the country really isn't a big deal.. but.. there is a license to "export" does take some time and energy and require some paperwork..

Truthfully, walking into a LGS and buying a scope, putting it in your carry on bag, and giving it to your PH is a pretty easy affair and the likelihood of anyone either in the US or SA questioning anything about why you have an optic in your bag is extremely low...

But.. if you want to stay within the law (I'd recommend it).. you need to be talking to DOC Bureau of Industry and Security a couple of months in advance, and get the proper paperwork filed..

Optics Planet has always been very careful about optics sales.. this isn't the first time Ive been told about an OCONUS purchaser having an order canceled that was to be delivered to a CONUS address..

That said... Ive never known Bass Pro, Cabelas, Academy, etc to give more than 1/10th of a rats ass about optics sales as long as the receiving address is in the US

 

[mdwest]

So, hypothetically, if I were to purchase a scope in the US, that I cannot find in Europe . I will not be able to get direct delivery to my home? Nor can I send it to a friendly acquaintance in the us for safekeeping?

You can get it delivered directly to your home.. but you are going to have to obtain an export license from the US Dept of Commerce.. which is a bit of a pain in the ass if you are unfamiliar with the process.. and many retailers don't want to have to deal with the paperwork for a single unit sale..

Getting it delivered to a friendly acquaintance is pretty easy.. most retailers don't care as long as they are delivering to a US address.. then the liability of whatever happens to that scope after the sale belongs to whoever receives it (the friendly acquaintance is taking the risk of committing an export violation, which COULD result in a pretty hefty civil penalty.. or even criminal penalty depending on what we're talking about)..

 

[mdwest]

It would of been better if you would of just purchased it and had him reimburse you on a item that is not exportable.

This is typically the path of least resistance..

If you're taking night vision or thermal optics out of the country.. you might have someone at the airport take a pretty hard look at what you have in your bags (if they have any clue what they are looking at... I've found that most TSA screeners don't know the difference between Gen IV thermals and a D cell vibrator lol... much less know the difference between a Gen 2 Night Vision optic and a Gen IV thermal optic.. to know what is regulated by who and what can and cannot leave the country without an export license..

But a typical hunting scope.. I would be personally shocked if anyone even gave it a second glance or give so much as a single care... I'd bet 99.99999999% of of all airport police and TSA agents in the US don't even know what ITAR is, much less what DOC BIS is.. or what they should do if they were to come across a regulated optic (kinda sad really...)...

 

[Hank2211]

I'm sure this had nothing to do with US legal requirements regarding scopes. The delivery address was in the US so unless there was some other indication that the goods would be exported, the retailer would be safe completing the sale (though that's not legal advice!). If, though, the IP address of the ordering party was outside of the US, that could potentially create a problem with export restrictions, and the system could just be programmed to not accept such orders. Depending on the system the retailer uses, that may not involve a cancellation at all - the order just wouldn't go through and the buyer would never receive a confirmation email.

But, assuming that wasn't the problem . . .

I have a retail business, most of which is done over the internet. Anytime someone gives a shipping address which is different from the cardholder address, flags go up. The red kind (the flag next to the order is actually red!). This is the most common retailer fraud - I have a card number and the address of the cardholder, but of course, I'm not authorized to use the card, so I ask for the goods to be shipped to a different address.

Second red flag is the expedited shipping. If you're going to use a credit card which isn't your own, you want the stuff as quickly as possible, before the cardholder has time to find out that the card has been compromised. And of course, since you aren't paying any of the cost anyway, expedited shipping is nothing to you.

The challenge for businesses short of Amazon in terms of size is that when a card is used over the internet, at least in our case the credit card company has more than four months to "charge back"
the cost to us if the card use was fraudulent. So all the risk is on the retailer. Not the cardholder nor the credit card company.

The point which is difficult to understand is the lack of an email to advise of the cancellation of the order. In our system - and this is no big deal - that's an automated function. I wonder if he either input his email address incorrectly, or if the cancellation email went to junk? Or the system never confirmed the order in the first place.

Now, the other issue of you potentially circumventing US export restrictions, well, @mdwest covered that one.

 

[TucsonFX4]

Other than lacking an email informing the customer of order cancellation, I don’t disagree with optics planet on this one. International IP address, domestic billing address, and a different shipping address. Even if it was for an item with no export restrictions, that sounds like a recipe for fraud and a credit card company would refuse payment to optics planet so they would be out a scope with no money in return.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

@Beaufort , hindsight is 20/20. It would have been a cleaner and smoother transaction if you would have ordered and paid for the item and then squared up with the PH upon delivery. As others have mentioned, there are potential legal issues with exporting some items. Optics Planet usually posts a notice on such products. I've purchased a few items from Optics Planet and had no issues with them and will likely continue using them.

 

[Tbitty]

As a former store manager for a family owned custom AV company, it was very important to run risk management on fraudulent activity. If I accepted credit card payment for anyone on a online or over the phone order, I went through a series of checks to minimize the chances of fraud. If I did allow a purchase, once we shipped the item, any subsequent claim of fraud would effectively come out of our pocket (or have to go on insurance claims, which causes its own set of problems) if we could not prove that it was shipped to a correct address associated with the ordering cardholder.

As it relates to this post, I required all transactions have matching "bill to" and "ship to" information. If someone tried to order from RSA and ship to USA, I would not even waste my time with processing the order or trying to make contact with the buyer. But we also had a disclaimer on our website and order T&C's that said we wouldn't process such orders. We also did not send any automatic confirmation of order receipt or processing.

I'm not surprised that Optics Planet would cancel the order, but I am disappointed to see that they wouldn't provide any contact info or details of the cancelation to the buyer.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Tried to do the same for Putin exact same result. Yes they should be flogged for this! Reminds me of why most IT people encounter errors:. The users.

 

[C.W. Richter]

There were quite a few cellular and internet service outages during the holiday something as simple as that could result in the problem, but what others have said above is the way the transaction should have successfully occurred. And we were all waiting to hear you say they were peddling defective products and we are disappointed.

 

[PeteG]

The same happened to me when i was trying to purchase a Trijicon sight, i ordered and paid for it to be delivered to a US address and roughly a week later, i received an email to state that they could not ship the item for me.
I suspect it has something to do with trade agreements as well, as there are africa distributors and retailers for vortex, trijicon and all the rest.
I would venture a guess that this is probably the biggest concern, as they see a foreign address on a credit card, they immediately flag this and it will not ship.
In the end, it works out smoother to have someone buy it for us, then send them the cash or pay when they travel back over to africa. No real difference in the end.

 

[Hank2211]

The same happened to me when i was trying to purchase a Trijicon sight, i ordered and paid for it to be delivered to a US address and roughly a week later, i received an email to state that they could not ship the item for me.
I suspect it has something to do with trade agreements as well, as there are africa distributors and retailers for vortex, trijicon and all the rest.
I would venture a guess that this is probably the biggest concern, as they see a foreign address on a credit card, they immediately flag this and it will not ship.
In the end, it works out smoother to have someone buy it for us, then send them the cash or pay when they travel back over to africa. No real difference in the end.

No real difference in the end? Well, not quite.

Many, if not most clients, like to do favours for their PH, and many (again if not most), are probably not particularly knowledgeable about export restrictions (many of which make no sense or are counter-intuitive). Unless you've determined in advance - knowledgeably determined, not just assumed - that taking the item you want out of the US wouldn't be violating any export restrictions, I don't think it's right to ask a client to assume that responsibility.

 

[PeteG]

No real difference in the end? Well, not quite.

Many, if not most clients, like to do favours for their PH, and many (again if not most), are probably not particularly knowledgeable about export restrictions (many of which make no sense or are counter-intuitive). Unless you've determined in advance - knowledgeably determined, not just assumed - that taking the item you want out of the US wouldn't be violating any export restrictions, I don't think it's right to ask a client to assume that responsibility.

I hear you, but you’re assuming it’s an export restriction causing the problem.
If it is, then it would also make sense that scopes/binoculars etc would require a temporary export and temporary import permit. Which is not a requirement as far as I know.
that’s why I suspect it is more related to a regional trade agreement for the company/manufacturer.

For example, I have tried to order a Toyota from Japan. Not possible. I have to go through Toyota Zambia or Toyota Rsa which is the same kind of regional agreement I suspect has caused this.
Short of the manufacturers getting involved and clearing the air, we’re all speculating here.

 

[White32]

Ordered from them once and learned my lesson. Canceled their email flyers and haven't sent them a penny since. Brownells bit me with a 12 days of Christmas sale event when I bought a sale item one day that was further reduced the next day. An email to them was ignored. Going on 12 years without doing business with them.