Deciding on Guns for First Safari

sestoppelman

AH ambassador
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
Messages
7,147
Reaction score
6,298
Media
165
Articles
2
Hunting reports
Africa
3
Member of
NRA, NA Hunt Club
Hunted
Tanzania, Botswana, Zimbabwe (2), Namibia (2), South Africa (2)

AkMike

AH fanatic
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
812
Reaction score
145
Location
Anchorage
Media
37
Member of
NRA-Life ASSRA DRSS
Possibly! But it's strange that this forum is the only one that's like this.

Oh Well.. Life will go on.
 

Red Leg

Lifetime bronze benefactor
AH ambassador
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
5,795
Reaction score
15,237
Location
Texas Hill Country
Media
264
Articles
5
Hunting reports
Africa
2
USA/Canada
4
Mex/S.Amer
1
Europe
3
Member of
SCI DSC life memberships / NRA Patron Life
Hunted
Mexico, Namibia, RSA, Germany, Austria, Argentina, Canada, Mozambique, Spain, US (15 states)
Wow, everyone got set off pretty quickly by the word overkill. I was actually referring to the cartridge known as the .600 Overkill, because I think I remember Ivan Carter using it. Anyway, if I do get a rimmed cartridge, which one? I like the .450 and .470 rifles, but as a huge Earnest Hemingway fan, I am partial to the .577 NE. I was thinking that maybe a Heym in .500 NE would be the perfect balance between the .470 and the .577, without being ridiculously heavy or high recoil. What do you guys think of this? Is there a reason to take the .450 or .470 rifle or on the other end of the spectrum the .577 NE, or is the .500 a perfect balance? If the .577 was a good choice, I'd buy one in a heartbeat for sheer nostalgiac value. Anyway, I definitely will practice with whichever gun I do end up getting. So, the basic question is, which of these calibers is best for lion and elephant, and from which manufacturer should I get it from. Also, is it better than the P&V .458, because I have handled and shot that gun, and not only does it for me like a glove, but I can handle it very well.

Saul, I would check with your PH and see how happy he will be with you initiating things with a lion and one of the big doubles. A 470 - 577 would be great for follow-up as a charge stopper, but a lot of PH's will be much more comfortable if that first round is placed as carefully as possible with a scoped rifle. With lion, more than anything else you are hunting, you will be lucky to get more than one opportunity. And when you do, too often your target may be at an odd angle or even laying down. A scoped .375 or .416 will increase the certainty of that first shot - as clients, our primary responsibility. My recommendation would be to buy whatever "elephant" rifle makes sense to you and fits you best. As you can tell by the energy that went into this thread, you can find no shortage of opinions. Plan to use a scoped .375 or .416 for the other DG (your PH can probably create a situation where the big gun will work on buff, but it will take some shots off the table) . Have one of the boys drag along the big gun, and use it for follow-up if that unfortunate situation arises (and let him know you will tip him a lot for dragging the thing around!).
 

Saul

AH fanatic
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Messages
869
Reaction score
656
Location
Key Largo, Florida
Hunting reports
Africa
1
Hunted
USA, UK, Hungary, Argentina
I have been doing some more research and the .450 NE is sounding very appealing. Are there any opinions on this caliber? How does it compare to the .458 Lott? Will it easily kill an elephant or buffalo? I handled a really nice Heym .450 NE and loved it. I also got to handle a .500 NE Heym that felt great too.
 

Doubleriflejack

AH senior member
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Messages
54
Reaction score
2
Location
Oregon
I have been doing some more research and the .450 NE is sounding very appealing. Are there any opinions on this caliber? How does it compare to the .458 Lott? Will it easily kill an elephant or buffalo? I handled a really nice Heym .450 NE and loved it. I also got to handle a .500 NE Heym that felt great too.
_________________________________

.450 NE is a far better cartridge, FOR DOUBLE RIFLES HUNTING IN INTENSE HEAT OF AFRICA, (as is the .470), compared to the .458 Winchester. The .450 NE, and the .470 will kill elephant and buffalo equally as well as the .458 Winchester IF the shooter does his part in placing the bullet where it needs to go--it is the hunter, rather than the caliber that does the killing. Such calibers are all that is needed, if hunter does his part. All things being equal, a hunter gets the attention of buffalo a bit more with a .500, than with a .450 or .470, but any of these will more than do the job, IF hunter does his job. Heym is a great rifle; I especially like their newer wider heavier actions, offered in addition to their earlier actions, wider/heavier ones more similar to old classic great British double rifle actions--take a long close hard look at these newer wider actions; they are wonderful.
 

sestoppelman

AH ambassador
Joined
Apr 25, 2010
Messages
7,147
Reaction score
6,298
Media
165
Articles
2
Hunting reports
Africa
3
Member of
NRA, NA Hunt Club
Hunted
Tanzania, Botswana, Zimbabwe (2), Namibia (2), South Africa (2)
I have been doing some more research and the .450 NE is sounding very appealing. Are there any opinions on this caliber? How does it compare to the .458 Lott? Will it easily kill an elephant or buffalo? I handled a really nice Heym .450 NE and loved it. I also got to handle a .500 NE Heym that felt great too.
With a minimum of fuss using the net, you can answer these questions easily enough. Of course it will kill a buff or an elephant, so will anything. This is just another of myriad Express rounds that mostly do about the same thing in a smaller or larger package. Not as powerful as the .458 Lott apparently but so what? Gonna kick less, be easier to shoot well, and will kill anything that walks if hit right. If you dont have a copy of Cartridges of the World, you should.
 

Shakey

AH veteran
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
160
Reaction score
43
Media
161
Hunting reports
Africa
2
USA/Canada
1
Member of
SCI, DSC, NRA
Hunted
US, Canada, RSA (Limpopo, Eastern Cape), Zimbabwe (Omay North X 2, Dande Safari Area, Dande East), Botswana
I have been doing some more research and the .450 NE is sounding very appealing. Are there any opinions on this caliber? How does it compare to the .458 Lott? Will it easily kill an elephant or buffalo? I handled a really nice Heym .450 NE and loved it. I also got to handle a .500 NE Heym that felt great too.

Perfect caliber and perfect double rifle manufacturer. I picked up an older Heym chambered in .458 Win Mag and had JJ Perodeau convert it to a .450 3-1/4" NE and regulate it with 450 grain North Fork Solids. It is an absolute pleasure to shoot, and there are so many bullet choices for this caliber. I went with 450 gr because my son will use this gun in Zim this year and 450 gr has a bit less recoil, but still meets the "minimum" sectional density of 0.3. Now he's taller than me, and we'll probably try to find a 500 gr loading that will pattern well. I've talked to a few people who have 450/400 NE and 500 NE, and many have said that if they were to do it over again, they would settle on the .450 NE (450/400 a bit light, 500 a bit heavy). With a bullet wt of 500 gr, and the sectional density is very impressive. Drop the speed a bit and load 300 grain TSX bullets and you have a gun that feels like shooting a 30-06 and will tumble anything in North America. Ours will keep almost the same POI at 50 yards with a 300 gr TSX at around 2,000 fps, and you can shoot these loads all day.

The .450 NE was, at one time, the elephant cartridge that all other offerings were judged against. Then came the ban on the caliber and the rush to match it's performance with different caliber offerings.

I don't believe you can go wrong with a 450 NE Heym!
 

AkMike

AH fanatic
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
812
Reaction score
145
Location
Anchorage
Media
37
Member of
NRA-Life ASSRA DRSS
I prefer one of the 450 NE's simply because of the availability of bullets that I can load in them. The 450's were regulated with 480 grain bullets but I haven't found any changes from stepping up a bit to the 500 grn.
With a double you can use the 75% rule an make plinking loads with 350 grain bullets for the 450's.

If you are going to load your own rounds for a DR then you NEED to get a copy of Graeme Wrights book, "Shooting the British Double Rifle." It's a must have for understanding how these things work and even safe pressure tested loads for most of the British Rounds.

Another option is to look for an older underlever hammer gun. These are around and are proofed for nitro. BUT there are many that are only BP proofed so you need to be aware of the marks that show what it really is.
 

AkMike

AH fanatic
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
812
Reaction score
145
Location
Anchorage
Media
37
Member of
NRA-Life ASSRA DRSS
This is a 500/450 3 1/4" retailed by A. Hollis and made by Leonard who also made many of the Jeffery rifles. It's from 1906. It was also regulated with the 480 grain bullet.
 

Attachments

  • Hollis 006.jpg
    Hollis 006.jpg
    294.8 KB · Views: 64
  • Hollis 001.jpg
    Hollis 001.jpg
    282.8 KB · Views: 59
  • Hollis 010.jpg
    Hollis 010.jpg
    281.7 KB · Views: 64
  • Hollis 003.jpg
    Hollis 003.jpg
    465.9 KB · Views: 65

Saul

AH fanatic
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Messages
869
Reaction score
656
Location
Key Largo, Florida
Hunting reports
Africa
1
Hunted
USA, UK, Hungary, Argentina
This is a 500/450 3 1/4" retailed by A. Hollis and made by Leonard who also made many of the Jeffery rifles. It's from 1906. It was also regulated with the 480 grain bullet.

Wow that's a beautiful rifle. The questions I have before I buy a .450 NE are what guns would a PH like to see me carry when hunting elephants and what guns would they carry? Since there are so many great PHs on here,
It would be great to hear their opinions on calibers, as well as their stopping rifles. I'm constantly hearing about how PHs hate it when a client carries a weatherby rifle, so it would be interested to hear what they like to see in DG rifle calibers, as well as their personal stopping rifles. I would also like to know what peoples opinions are on Hornday DGS and DGX ammo. I have these new questions because I've been emailing with Ivan Carter about the issue and he is a firm believer in PHs carrying .600 NE rifle when hunting lots of elephants, as well as a client carrying
At least a .470 NE. He also says that one should only carry hornday DGS and DGX. He also prefers Barnes TTSX to Nosler partitions. Sorry for all of the questions, but I just want to know if all of this new information is based on his sponsors or reality. Thanks everyone.
 

AkMike

AH fanatic
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
812
Reaction score
145
Location
Anchorage
Media
37
Member of
NRA-Life ASSRA DRSS
Keep in mind that all the calibers between a 450NE and UNDER a 500NE are pretty much the same except for a very few thousandths.450, 465,470, 475 ect.
 

peras

AH elite
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
1,808
Reaction score
2,053
Media
710
Articles
2
Member of
PHASA HSC
Hunted
South Africa,Zimbabwe,Mozambique
Wow that's a beautiful rifle. The questions I have before I buy a .450 NE are what guns would a PH like to see me carry when hunting elephants and what guns would they carry? Since there are so many great PHs on here,
It would be great to hear their opinions on calibers, as well as their stopping rifles. I'm constantly hearing about how PHs hate it when a client carries a weatherby rifle, so it would be interested to hear what they like to see in DG rifle calibers, as well as their personal stopping rifles. I would also like to know what peoples opinions are on Hornday DGS and DGX ammo. I have these new questions because I've been emailing with Ivan Carter about the issue and he is a firm believer in PHs carrying .600 NE rifle when hunting lots of elephants, as well as a client carrying
At least a .470 NE. He also says that one should only carry hornday DGS and DGX. He also prefers Barnes TTSX to Nosler partitions. Sorry for all of the questions, but I just want to know if all of this new information is based on his sponsors or reality. Thanks everyone.
Saul,any caliber from a .375 up will kill an elephant with ease if the shotplacement is correct.If you are comfortable shooting a .600 that would be fine but if youre not but you can shoot a .375 very well the .375 will be better.A bad shot with a 600 means less than a well placed shot with a .375 full stop no arguments.
Lets just look at the following ballistics:
.450NE 480GR Projectile at 2125fps develops 4814ft/lb Recoil 58.1ft/lb
.458 win mag 500gr 2125fps 5015 ft/lb Recoil 53.5ft/lb
.458lott 500gr 2250fps 5622 ft/lb Recoil 64.2ft/lb
.470NE 500gr 2150fps 5067ft/lb Recoil73.9 ft/lb
.500NE 570GR 2150FPS 5852ft/lb Recoil 77.2 ft/lb
.460 Weatherby 500gr 2575 fps 7837 ft/lb Recoil 93.6 ft/lb
If we look at these ballistics we see that there is very little difference between the 450,458 and 470 so little you will not notice it in the field.
The lott and the 500 gives a slight improvement,and the real step up is to the weatherby,which comes at abit of a cost if you look at the recoil.If you are comfortable with the big weatherby by all means use something like that it is a beast,however I have seen few who does not flinch when shooting it.
Personally I use a 458 win mag which has become a gem with all the new propellants.Relatively low recoil,which means less muzzle climb one of the biggest factors taking time between shots.If you look at the ballistics it does the same as the 450 and 470.Keeps me happy.
I have great respect for Ivan Carter,but if he says "only" Hornady it is all sales talk,I use Hornady as well but there are other bullets which are just as good if not better.On the Barnes issue I must agree.
 

enysse

AH ambassador
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
11,641
Reaction score
4,189
Media
136
Hunting reports
Africa
8
USA/Canada
1
Member of
Northeast Wisconsin SCI chapter, Lifetime member of NRA,RMEF
Hunted
Namibia, South Africa (East Cape, Guateng and Limpopo)
:agree: with you Pieter. Nothing more to add.
 

AfricaHunting.com

Founder
AH ambassador
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
11,122
Reaction score
5,545
Website
AfricaHunting.com
Media
5,580
Articles
319
Don't worry about it I can deal with it.

Sorry for being off topic here, this message is primarily for AkMike.


Mike, An option needs to be change in your settings

First go to your Settings, here is the link: http://www.africahunting.com/usercp.php.

Then under in the left column look under My Settings -> My Account and click on General Settings.

Once on the General Settings page scroll down and look for Miscellaneous Options section. The Message Editor Interface will provide you with 3 options, select the one that says Enhanced Interface - Full WYSIWYG Editing and scroll down further to click on Save Changes so that the changes you made take effects.


You will now have a lot more editing choices including the smilies! Feel free to contact me should you need any further assistance.
 

spike.t

Sponsor
Since 2013
AH ambassador
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Messages
9,587
Reaction score
8,501
Website
www.takerireservezambia.com
Media
333
Articles
6
Hunting reports
Africa
3
Member of
sci int, basc,wpaz
Hunted
zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe,Mozambique ,hungary, france, england

AkMike

AH fanatic
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
812
Reaction score
145
Location
Anchorage
Media
37
Member of
NRA-Life ASSRA DRSS
WOW!!!

It work like charm!! Many Many Thanks Jerome! :D :D :D
 

Forum statistics

Threads
35,579
Messages
663,922
Members
60,250
Latest member
ImaEhrhart
 

 

 

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

Tally-Ho Hunting Safaris wrote on jfowler812's profile.
hi Mr fowler

im happy to do these deals for 2021

i will knock off 10% off each deal if you take 2 so $18000 per package

look forward to your response

regards
Mule deer and Colorado elk seasons almost done! Hunters driving farm roads, looking for racks, their PH driving them along, I ask that you not pull into my drive. The buck behind me, on the boundary line of the GMU somehow knows. The hunter laughs, I would invite you in to see my Searcy rifles but social distancing prevails, darkness arrives and the buck slides away into secret tree grove...
Boyd Brooks wrote on Skinnersblade's profile.
Ellwood Epps has 1 box of 25-20 in stock. Look them up on the web. They are located in Orilla Ontario.
Lkhntr wrote on Warpig602's profile.
On the vx6 2-12 what does the zl2 stand for?

Thanks, Oliver
bowjijohn wrote on AfricaHunting.com's profile.
Many thanks for re formatting my article for the forum

I served my time in both the bush and during the bush war

I hope it did it justice

Education is where it is at - without it the wild places are history

You - sir - are well placed to make a difference

J
 
Top