COVID vaccination required by Safari Company or not, your suggestion

[Zambezi]

It's all a salesman's dream from November 2019. We were sold the fear by videos of hundreds of people dying mid stride while out in the street.... Fear loading Part 1.

Then videos of apartments etc being bricked up and people being hauled off, and many shot in the streets.... Fear loading Part 2

Then entire cities quarantined and every government employee in full hazmat suits... Fear loading Part 3.

Fear stage complete.

Or so we thought...

Now that the fear has been instilled in every person on the planet concerning this "population killer" they went on to the indoctrination stage.

Indoctrination Stage 1: Worldwide shut down to stop the spread. Give us 3 weeks to get ready for mass graves and ICU shortages.

Indoctrination Stage 2: Don't go near anyone else and wear a mask (or two, or none, or three depending on the whim of the "experts")

Indoctrination Stage 3: Everyone that doesn't agree with the "experts" are baby killers and want to overthrow the world. He/she is your enemy.

Indoctrination Stage 4: Ban or censure opposing experts or dissenting voices. Ruin every economy. And reputation. Use this period to declare a de facto marshal law situation.

Indoctrination stage complete.

Now comes the "new normal" stage.

New Normal Stage 1: Use new self granted powers to destroy any further opposition and prolong lockdown scenarios.

New normal Stage 2: Roll out "vaccine" programs and brand anyone who refuses as an enemy of the state/planet.

New normal Stage 3: Introduce vaccine passports... SHOW US YOUR PAPERS!

New normal Stage 4: No papers = no job, no travel, no interaction with the compliant, no entry into any public establishments,..

New Normal Stage 5: (coming soon to a town near you) You're not a fit parent if you don't comply so we the state and compliant ones will look after your kids. We the state or compliant ones will decide if we forcefully vaccinate you and your kids. We the state and compliant ones will decide what you can and cannot do and where you can and cannot go.

End game stage...

End game Stage 1:Whatever the hell we tell you to do you'll do. You have already bent the knee in submission to "the planet killer virus" scam. You have shown that you'll comply to anything even when your gut and brain screams out "WTF!"

End game Stage2: Take the chip, it frees you up from robbery and theft and fraud and ID theft. Yes we now control your body, your mind and your finances but don't you feel safer...?

End result: GAME OVER! YOU ARE A PRODUCT TO BE USED AS WE THE STATE SEE FIT.

 

[Rimshot]

Regardless of what you have personally posted in the past, I was referencing what you said just now, and that statement about vaccine efficacy has missing information...

Yeah, there's always more information. I thought it was fairly obvious by now that vaccination with 2 shots doesn't give you lifetime sterilizing immunity, just like having recovered from COVID doesn't either. Getting your temporary sterilizing immunity from the vaccine seems easier to me, but to each their own.

Furthermore, this is NOT how the Brandon Administration and the Center for Disinformation and Confusion has been selling these vaccines to the American people.. Instead of admitting their mistakes and following the "science" as it has evolved, they have lied, deceived, misdirected, and doubled down on every bit of "guidance" they have laid out since this shit-show began. You cannot believe a word these idiots say, and they wonder why so many people are vaccine hesitant? LOL...

I completely agree, and I've rehashed exactly this on many other posts.

If I were to reiterate everything I've said in every reply, it would be quite the novel.

 

[Bill DeHaan]

Thx for your reply Rimshot. Seems we are in closer agreement that I assumed. Sorry!

I work for a large multinational defense contractor who is now preparing to follow President Biden’s order for US govt contractors to have 100% of their staff (in the US) vaccinated by Dec 8. 100%, whether you work in a position to interface with the govt or not. My concern with this is the precedence in my loss of (health) liberty.

my risk of contracting and being hospitalized from Covid, even at my age and health condition is statistically very very low. Not surprisingly, heart desease, diabetes etc pose a mathematically far greater risk for near and long term health. There are a number of common health concerns that fit that bill and thereby impact our companies, nation, govt and healthcare system more than Covid.

So what prevents the govt and/or my employer from requiring me to begin taking heart, blood pressure, cholesterol even though (surprisingly) my levels are good? (I’m overweight but seems I Got the good genes I guess) Why would they do this? Keeping me “healthy” might reduce their costs and benefit the company, etc.

 

[Rimshot]

Regardless of what you have personally posted in the past, I was referencing what you said just now, and that statement about vaccine efficacy has missing information...

And just to be clear, I did qualify my statement, literally in the same post in the very next paragraph, I guess you skipped over it:

Yes, you are correct. Sterilizing immunity was hoped for but not required. We were blessed with the "bonus" of sterilizing immunity though (for as long as your antibodies remain high). Go back a few pages and read my post about the role of antibodies.

 

[Rimshot]

Thx for your reply Rimshot. Seems we are in closer agreement that I assumed. Sorry!

I work for a large multinational defense contractor who is now preparing to follow President Biden’s order for US govt contractors to have 100% of their staff (in the US) vaccinated by Dec 8. 100%, whether you work in a position to interface with the govt or not. My concern with this is the precedence in my loss of (health) liberty.

my risk of contracting and being hospitalized from Covid, even at my age and health condition is statistically very very low. Not surprisingly, heart desease, diabetes etc pose a mathematically far greater risk for near and long term health. There are a number of common health concerns that fit that bill and thereby impact our companies, nation, govt and healthcare system more than Covid.

So what prevents the govt and/or my employer from requiring me to begin taking heart, blood pressure, cholesterol even though (surprisingly) my levels are good? (I’m overweight but seems I Got the good genes I guess) Why would they do this? Keeping me “healthy” might reduce their costs and benefit the company, etc.

This is just a symptom of a much larger problem with our contemporary republic. Both the left and right are perfectly fine taking turns using the federal govt to violate the constitution if X is a "good idea", "just cause", or for the "right reasons". Rights or speech that everyone agrees with obviously doesn't require protection or defense, but we (as a society) seem to have forgotten important fundamentals of civics and rule of law in the name of expedience.

Just look at the fight over free speech on the internet and Section 230 right now. Both the left and right want to control speech on the internet, for ostensibly different reasons but ultimately in the quest for more political power in a way advantageous to them, not the public at large.

 

[BSO Dave]

With all due respect, this is completely untrue. There are piles of studies out there, including controlled trials that show just how effective this vaccine is at preventing infection. Like this one: VA study Cliffs notes: over 100,000 person study that showed 96.2% effectiveness of Pfizer and 98.2% of Moderna IN PREVENTING INFECTION!
No vaccine ever has 100% efficacy, simply because people are diverse. 5% breakthrough infections doesn't mean the vaccine doesn't prevent infection, unless you were to categorize all vaccines as not preventing infection?

I skipped nothing... Context is everything.. Your statement above was worded as to dismiss any and all doubt of the efficacy of these vaccines by citing dated, inaccurate information. The point of my statement in rebuttal to yours was there is now an enormous amount of data to cast doubt as to their actual percentage of efficacy, and even more doubt as to how that is being marketed to the American public via Brandon's Politburo. And, yes let's be clear.. How exactly does your follow up paragraph qualify the statements above?

I'd also be curious to know what data you referenced to get the 5% breakthrough infection rate? The numbers I have seen globally as of the last month are looking more like as much as 50% breakthrough infection rates with the Delta variant... This suggests the efficacy of the vaccines are waning, or they are much less effective against the Delta variant, or both... Either way, they are not working as originally advertised, and that reality needs to be acknowledged, just as much as the overwhelming efficacy of natural immunity should be acknowledged, yet is being conveniently ignored by these idiots in charge.

 

[Rimshot]

I skipped nothing... Context is everything.. Your statement above was worded as to dismiss any and all doubt of the efficacy of these vaccines by citing dated, inaccurate information. The point of my statement in rebuttal to yours was there is now an enormous amount of data to cast doubt as to their actual percentage of efficacy, and even more doubt as to how that is being marketed to the American public via Brandon's Politburo. And, yes let's be clear.. How exactly does your follow up paragraph qualify the statements above?

...dated, inaccurate information? I just cited a study that's less than 3 months old, using gold standard methodology, with n>100,000. Please ignore politicians, bureaucrats, and people with ulterior motives. Trump lies, Biden lies, Fauci lies, they all lie when it suits them or as a means to an end. Look at hard data and stop listening to propaganda.

Perhaps I could have been more clear on the fact that no matter where you get your immunity, natural infection or vaccine, once your antibody levels decrease, your chances of infection increase. There are way too many factors that determine this, so there is no "one size fits all" answer in this binary obsessed world we find ourselves in. Women and younger people will generally have stronger and longer antibody response for example, but there are dozens of identified factors. The vaccine brands/technology also make a difference. The Pfizer vaccine shows some antibody levels dropping to levels too low to prevent infection after 6 months or so. Moderna vaccine lasts longer (it's a higher dose with higher side effects as well). None of this was kept secret. Same with COVID recovery. People with a mild case see their antibodies decrease sooner and are again vulnerable to infection. All of this is well documented.

I'd also be curious to know what data you referenced to get the 5% breakthrough infection rate? The numbers I have seen globally as of the last month are looking more like as much as 50% breakthrough infection rates with the Delta variant... This suggests the efficacy of the vaccines are waning, or they are much less effective against the Delta variant, or both... Either way, they are not working as originally advertised, and that reality needs to be acknowledged, just as much as the overwhelming efficacy of natural immunity should be acknowledged, yet is being conveniently ignored by these idiots in charge.

I was being generous. The breakthrough infection rate was actually lower than 5% in that study I cited previously. The Delta variant was just getting started when this study completed, and it has been shown to lower efficacy of the vaccines for infection slightly, but only by a few percentage points.

Again, if you've only had 2 vaccine doses and they were 9 months ago, of course breakthrough infection rates will increase. 50% wouldn't surprise me with Pfizer especially, since antibody levels drop significantly in many people after 6 months from the second dose.

Coincidentally, 50% was the initial efficacy goal when the COVID vaccine was first proposed. So in that since, the vaccine still works because fully half of infections are still prevented! Even better really because the vaccine goal was to prevent severe disease, not sterilizing immunity necessarily. If one were to get their 3rd shot at least 6 months after the second one, the efficacy against infection again goes up to 95+%, so this is a problem with an already vetted solution.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that natural immunity should be factored in, and this whole thing stinks of massive government overreach. That said, it would be advantageous for people who recovered from COVID more than 6 months ago to get the vaccine also, unless they don't mind being reinfected again. Their antibodies will drop off just like those who were vaccinated last year have. There is nothing magical about natural immunity, despite propaganda in the anti-vax camp. Most will be completely immune from infection for a time that fades, and probably have lasting severe disease protection.

 

[marksman]

covid deaths before and after vaccine programs data source John Hopkins university coronavirus centre

COVID vaccines are between 50% and 80% effective in reducing severe illness and death. They have to be at least 50% to retain emergency use authorisation. Such dramatic efficacy should be apparent in the empirical, "real-world" data. There should be very few country exceptions.

 

[BSO Dave]

With all due respect, this is completely untrue. There are piles of studies out there, including controlled trials that show just how effective this vaccine is at preventing infection. Like this one: VA study Cliffs notes: over 100,000 person study that showed 96.2% effectiveness of Pfizer and 98.2% of Moderna IN PREVENTING INFECTION!
No vaccine ever has 100% efficacy, simply because people are diverse. 5% breakthrough infections doesn't mean the vaccine doesn't prevent infection, unless you were to categorize all vaccines as not preventing infection?

I reposted your original quote above as a reminder to what started our conversation in the first place. Your subsequent replies have wandered off the rails from the original point which was that the statement above by itself, in the context by which you posted it is, in fact dated, and inaccurate information based on what we know today.

In the The VA study you cited, you either failed to mention or realize is that the study was actually conducted in timeframe of December 2020-March 2021. The results were released in July, 2021...This is dated information... Secondly, the study does not include the efficacy of prevention against the Delta variant which was not present in the USA at the time.

We now know that the efficacy of these vaccines toward prevention diminishes over several months, and that their efficacy for prevention against the Delta variant is significantly less that the 90+% that was suggested by the early data. In fact, the vaccines may not be very effective at all in the prevention of contracting any of the subsequent Covid variants. That's is why the CDC is back-peddling on it's original sales pitch from prevention to now pitching a reduction in the severity and lethality of the virus which hopefully will hold truer than the prevention promise.. I wish these vaccines were as effective as advertised, but they are not... I wish they had no significant side effects for certain demographics of the population, but they do.. It's a personal risk vs. reward health decision that each individual must make for themselves.

The real tragedy is that the vast majority of the efforts in the US against Covid have been predicated solely upon these vaccines and not on a combination of treatments including a number of different highly effective, safe, cheap medicines that could have saved tens of thousands of lives had it not been for the fact that this pandemic has been used as a political weapon since Day-1.

Please ignore politicians, bureaucrats, and people with ulterior motives. Trump lies, Biden lies, Fauci lies, they all lie when it suits them or as a means to an end. Look at hard data and stop listening to propaganda.

LOL.. You can save your condescending sanctimony for somebody else. Obviously, you have not read much of anything I have ever posted here.. I'm one of the last individuals to buy into the bullshit or worship any particular ideology. I form my opinions based on the facts and the application of common sense. I welcome informed debate, but I will call out bullshit from any source, right, left or center, every time I see it posted here.

 

[kidogo]

Not sure why it's an issue since you have to be fully vaccinated to get on a plane to get there.

 

[Rimshot]

I reposted your original quote above as a reminder to what started our conversation in the first place. Your subsequent replies have wandered off the rails from the original point which was that the statement above by itself, in the context by which you posted it is, in fact dated, and inaccurate information based on what we know today.

What do we "know" today? There are some COVID variants that show significant immune/vaccine escape, for example the Mu variant. The Delta variant is not one of them. It has a slightly higher breakthrough infection rate especially in those with waning antibody levels, but is still neutralized by OG COVID antibodies generated by prior infection and vaccine. We are in a sense lucky that Delta out-competed Mu. There is real possibility that a new variant will emerge before the pandemic is under control that mostly escapes the vaccine, but we're not there yet. If you have some high quality studies that show the Delta variant causing high infection rate in mRNA recently vaccinated (<6 months) subjects I'd like to see it.

We now know that the efficacy of these vaccines toward prevention diminishes over several months, and that their efficacy for prevention against the Delta variant is significantly less that the 90+% that was suggested by the early data. In fact, the vaccines may not be very effective at all in the prevention of contracting any of the subsequent Covid variants. That's is why the CDC is back-peddling on it's original sales pitch from prevention to now pitching a reduction in the severity and lethality of the virus which hopefully will hold truer than the prevention promise.. I wish these vaccines were as effective as advertised, but they are not... I wish they had no significant side effects for certain demographics of the population, but they do.. It's a personal risk vs. reward health decision that each individual must make for themselves.

The CDC has constantly demonstrated their failure to react quickly, and is playing the politics of the cautious and indecisive bureaucracy. There could be new strains that readily infect vaccinated people, but the Delta strain isn't one of them. The mRNA vaccines are miraculously effective (for now) but that could change with a new variant that becomes dominant. As to significant side effects of the vaccines, they are extremely rare and for almost all demographics the chance of severe side effects are greater having COVID, so the risk/reward is fairly clear...but I agree that calculus is up to the individual and NOT the state.

The real tragedy is that the vast majority of the efforts in the US against Covid have been predicated solely upon these vaccines and not on a combination of treatments including a number of different highly effective, safe, cheap medicines that could have saved tens of thousands of lives had it not been for the fact that this pandemic has been used as a political weapon since Day-1.

Please, don't keep us in suspense. What are these safe, cheap medicines that have been withheld due to politics? So far, hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin have been dead ends once an actual high quality clinical trial is undertaken; certainly not the next "miracle cure". I think if people want to take them though, they should be able to without government interference.

LOL.. You can save your condescending sanctimony for somebody else. Obviously, you have not read much of anything I have ever posted here.. I'm one of the last individuals to buy into the bullshit or worship any particular ideology. I form my opinions based on the facts and the application of common sense. I welcome informed debate, but I will call out bullshit from any source, right, left or center, every time I see it posted here.

In several of your posts you set up the Biden administration as a straw man, as if anything I have to say has anything to do with what various politicians are saying or government bureaucrats that are beholden to politicians are saying or not saying. I don't care what they're saying and you shouldn't either if you want to make decisions that are in your own best interest. I did not intend to come across as condescending, I just wish to leave politics and politicians out of this discussion of facts and data. I encourage you to do the same.

 

[Red Leg]

Not sure why it's an issue since you have to be fully vaccinated to get on a plane to get there.

To get where? The only place I have been that was enabled by my vaccination status was the EU (Austria). However, I could have also traveled on a negative PCR test which is the standard in Africa.

 

[shootist~]

Per some CDC clarifications noted in the local paper this morning (reposted from WAPO).

US borders still to be open to international travelers on Nov 8...
>>With proof of being fully vaccinated by CDC or WHO approved vaccines.
>>Mixing of different types of vaccines OK.
>>Covid test before boarding a flight also required.
>>No covid test required if driving.

 

[BSO Dave]

If you have some high quality studies that show the Delta variant causing high infection rate in mRNA recently vaccinated (<6 months) subjects I'd like to see it.

LOL... Thank you. You are making my point for me.. The vaccines are proving to be fairly worthless in regard to prevention outside of 6 months.. Probably less.. The data from Israel and the UK demonstrate this best with both countries having the world's highest per capita vaccination rates yet got inundated with Delta infections.. Same thing is happening here..

As to significant side effects of the vaccines, they are extremely rare and for almost all demographics the chance of severe side effects are greater having COVID, so the risk/reward is fairly clear.

The side effects are rare according to who? The CDC, or the drug companies that manufacture these vaccines? LOL..! Are you honestly looking a the global numbers or just the cherry-picked "data" that the CDC provides?

So far, hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin have been dead ends once an actual high quality clinical trial is undertaken; certainly not the next "miracle cure".

Hydroxichloriquine and Ivermectin are dead ends? Again I would ask according to who? The CDC? You say your opinions are not influenced by the politics and corporate agendas and then you make this statement? How do you expect to be taken seriously? For somebody who claims to be such a proponent of independent, unbiased research, you have failed to do so here... There is now a multitude of of global data that shows significant rates of efficacy of these drugs for reducing severity of disease in early treatment of the virus. Ironically, these drug therapies are being used almost everywhere around the world but here in the USA..

By the way, you do realize that at the same time Fauci was dismissing the "anecdotal" evidence of hydroxichloriquine, he was prescribing it to his friends and family right? LMFAO!

Miracle cure or not, anyone with a lick of common sense would have to question why the government and media would demonize the repurposing of any drug that might help save lives in a pandemic emergency? Especially drugs that are historically safe and cheap? After all didn't we just give emergency approval for 3 experimental vaccines in the name of saving lives in an emergency?

Oh wait a minute, I answered my own rhetorical question... Turns out half the politicians and pundits in this country have blood on their hands for possibly tens of thousands of Americans because they lied about and vilified alternative treatment options because these were ideas that Trump suggested... I remember the good old days when the democrats vowed they would never take a "Trump vaccine" LOL...!

 

[Scott CWO]

LOL... Thank you. You are making my point for me.. The vaccines are proving to be fairly worthless in regard to prevention outside of 6 months.. Probably less.. The data from Israel and the UK demonstrate this best with both countries having the world's highest per capita vaccination rates yet got inundated with Delta infections.. Same thing is happening here..



The side effects are rare according to who? The CDC, or the drug companies that manufacture these vaccines? LOL..! Are you honestly looking a the global numbers or just the cherry-picked "data" that the CDC provides?



Hydroxichloriquine and Ivermectin are dead ends? Again I would ask according to who? The CDC? You say your opinions are not influenced by the politics and corporate agendas and then you make this statement? How do you expect to be taken seriously? For somebody who claims to be such a proponent of independent, unbiased research, you have failed to do so here... There is now a multitude of of global data that shows significant rates of efficacy of these drugs for reducing severity of disease in early treatment of the virus. Ironically, these drug therapies are being used almost everywhere around the world but here in the USA..

By the way, you do realize that at the same time Fauci was dismissing the "anecdotal" evidence of hydroxichloriquine, he was prescribing it to his friends and family right? LMFAO!

Miracle cure or not, anyone with a lick of common sense would have to question why the government and media would demonize the repurposing of any drug that might help save lives in a pandemic emergency? Especially drugs that are historically safe and cheap? After all didn't we just give emergency approval for 3 experimental vaccines in the name of saving lives in an emergency?

Oh wait a minute, I answered my own rhetorical question... Turns out half the politicians and pundits in this country have blood on their hands for possibly tens of thousands of Americans because they lied about and vilified alternative treatment options because these were ideas that Trump suggested... I remember the good old days when the democrats vowed they would never take a "Trump vaccine" LOL...!

Fairly worthless? Some people are looking for a one-time cure-all and if not found, cast aspersions on everything else. I took Moderna and knew it wouldn’t last forever and that boosters would likely be needed. So what? Antibodies drop. Not a surprise. This doesn’t mean that the vaccines are worthless or not worthwhile to take. My daughter is a nurse in a large Colorado hospital and I’ve posted the data from that hospital here before. The vast majority of hospitalized people and deaths are people that are not vaccinated. That’s the truth. My daughter talks to them and she doesn’t lie to me or have an agenda. I don’t believe that her patients are lying about not taking the vaccine. Yes, there are breakthrough cases. My son’s wife is pregnant and one of them. She took Phizer while pregnant and still got Covid but did well with it and by all accounts, the baby is fine and due anytime now.

A good friend of mine that teased me about taking the shots is right now so sick that he can’t stand. He has to roll out of bed. His wife is on her death bed on a ventilator. We took him to the hospital a few days ago. He was given a prescription and an oxygen tank on wheels. He’s doing a bit better now but isn’t teasing me anymore about taking the shots. His wife may not survive.

 

[Rimshot]

LOL... Thank you. You are making my point for me.. The vaccines are proving to be fairly worthless in regard to prevention outside of 6 months.. Probably less.. The data from Israel and the UK demonstrate this best with both countries having the world's highest per capita vaccination rates yet got inundated with Delta infections.. Same thing is happening here..

This is a little hyperbolic. Even if infection prevention were to fall to 50% at 6 months post vaccination (it doesn't for most people), that doesn't translate to "fairly worthless prevention", as you've literally cut your chance of infection in half! This isn't even an issue as anyone in the US can get a 3rd shot and bring their antibody levels up even higher than post 2nd shot.

The side effects are rare according to who? The CDC, or the drug companies that manufacture these vaccines? LOL..! Are you honestly looking a the global numbers or just the cherry-picked "data" that the CDC provides?

I suppose you believe the self-reported unvetted VAERS data is the most reliable source then?

Hydroxichloriquine and Ivermectin are dead ends? Again I would ask according to who? The CDC? You say your opinions are not influenced by the politics and corporate agendas and then you make this statement? How do you expect to be taken seriously? For somebody who claims to be such a proponent of independent, unbiased research, you have failed to do so here... There is now a multitude of of global data that shows significant rates of efficacy of these drugs for reducing severity of disease in early treatment of the virus. Ironically, these drug therapies are being used almost everywhere around the world but here in the USA..

Please, show us controlled trial data that demonstrate that these drugs are "highly effective". There's a lot of anecdotal, correlational noise out there, but every actual trial I've seen with solid methodology has been disappointing. Curiously one of the studies that have claimed Ivermectin is a miracle COVID cure have refused to release their trial data for peer review (this one in Brazil I believe). That which can be claimed without evidence, can also be dismissed without evidence.

By the way, you do realize that at the same time Fauci was dismissing the "anecdotal" evidence of hydroxichloriquine, he was prescribing it to his friends and family right? LMFAO!

Miracle cure or not, anyone with a lick of common sense would have to question why the government and media would demonize the repurposing of any drug that might help save lives in a pandemic emergency? Especially drugs that are historically safe and cheap? After all didn't we just give emergency approval for 3 experimental vaccines in the name of saving lives in an emergency?

Oh wait a minute, I answered my own rhetorical question... Turns out half the politicians and pundits in this country have blood on their hands for possibly tens of thousands of Americans because they lied about and vilified alternative treatment options because these were ideas that Trump suggested... I remember the good old days when the democrats vowed they would never take a "Trump vaccine" LOL...!

Again, with the politics. Yes I agree with you for the 100th time about politicians screwing everyone. Unplug the TV for a while.

 

[Zambezi]

The Undeniable Ivermectin Miracle in India’s 240m Populated Largest State, Uttar Pradesh – Horowitz - NewsRescue.com

Doctors advice that Ivermectin or Monoclonal antibodies should be used within the first 10 days of contact/infection; while the virus is still alive. After 10 days the virus is already dead and has left trillions of cascade-causing debris viral particles NewsRescue by DANIEL HOROWITZ, TheBlaze...

newsrescue.com

Make of it what you will...

 

[marksman]

"Please, show us controlled trial data that demonstrate that these drugs are "highly effective". There's a lot of anecdotal, correlational noise out there, but every actual trial I've seen with solid methodology has been disappointing."

here's 63 studies done on ivermectin for you Rimshot

COVID-19 early treatment: real-time analysis of 1,734 studies

COVID-19 early treatment: real-time analysis of 1,734 studies

c19early.com

but real evidence is in what actually works and that is why the Indian government is suing a WHO chief scientist Dr Soumya Swaminathan for murder because she told them to stop using Ivermectin
https://www.thedesertreview.com/opi...cle_f90599f8-c7be-11eb-a8dc-0b3cbb3b4dfa.html
as well as look at the graphs showing India's recovery from before stopping the use of ivermectin that was used as an early treatment for covid, then the giant spike when they were told to stop because it did not work by the WHO chief scientist, then how the cases dramatically reduced when using the Ivermectin again, these are not made up Rimshot, open your eyes mate

and here is episode 9 of perspectives on the pandemic "the undercover epicenter nurse"
for those who are interested

there are a few revelations that are eye opening eg.. the misuse of a ventilator for covid

 

[Rimshot]

"Please, show us controlled trial data that demonstrate that these drugs are "highly effective". There's a lot of anecdotal, correlational noise out there, but every actual trial I've seen with solid methodology has been disappointing."

here's 63 studies done on ivermectin for you Rimshot

COVID-19 early treatment: real-time analysis of 1,734 studies

COVID-19 early treatment: real-time analysis of 1,734 studies

c19early.com

but real evidence is in what actually works and that is why the Indian government is suing a WHO chief scientist Dr Soumya Swaminathan for murder because she told them to stop using Ivermectin
https://www.thedesertreview.com/opi...cle_f90599f8-c7be-11eb-a8dc-0b3cbb3b4dfa.html
as well as look at the graphs showing India's recovery from before stopping the use of ivermectin that was used as an early treatment for covid, then the giant spike when they were told to stop because it did not work by the WHO chief scientist, then how the cases dramatically reduced when using the Ivermectin again, these are not made up Rimshot, open your eyes mate

and here is episode 9 of perspectives on the pandemic "the undercover epicenter nurse"
for those who are interested

there are a few revelations that are eye opening eg.. the misuse of a ventilator for covid

I went digging through the "63 studies". You could have 10,000 low quality, uncontrolled studies and they would still be meaningless. This is called "Gish galloping". Go ahead, cherry pick the best study and post it here so we can go through it. Find a randomized, placebo controlled trial in there, you can't. Which is funny, because they have been done on Ivermectin! There is a reason that the site you posted conveniently leaves out all placebo controlled trials, and only posts 63 with dubious methodology. Look through them, half are using multiple treatments and drugs. The others use no controls, no placebo, aren't randomized (self selected even!). You are being duped. Every trial that uses actual standard methods to determine drug effectiveness (randomized, placebo controlled trial) shows that there is no statistical benefit to Ivermectin in COVID.

As to the graph, so what? Correlation DOES NOT equal causation. There are 1,000 variables that aren't controlled for, but MUST be if you want to determine the actual affect. One could draw a graph just like that claiming Ivermectin was used in the USA's Delta wave and point to success, yet we didn't use much at all and it would be make believe.

I get it, we're all desperate for a miracle cure. Test hypothesis: it works or it doesn't. There is no grand conspiracy of the drug companies. Yes, there are some misaligned incentives, but there's also public and private research filling in the gaps.

 

[BSO Dave]

I get it, we're all desperate for a miracle cure.

I've never seen one post here where anybody implied that we are desperate for a miracle cure. What I have seen are lots of folks making the case for looking into any and all viable options for treatments resulting in more favorable outcomes, and not relying solely on the vaccines to save the world.

This Administration has gone to great lengths to over-invest in a vaccine that has unfortunately not been that miracle cure, while they have simultaneously done nearly everything in their power to divert from alternative treatments. While anyone who has dared to ask why has been vilified. My problem is not with the vaccines. My problem is how they are being marketed as the only "legitimate" treatment option which they are not.. They are only one of many tools that should be used in the battle against this virus.

There is no grand conspiracy of the drug companies.

LOL... No. Not at all... Big Pharma is our friend. They have no special interest in monopolizing treatment options for Covid or any other disease. They are only in this because they care about people's health.. Naïve much?

Unplug the TV for a while.

LMFAO! Who exactly do you think you are addressing here? You must think that you are lecturing a bunch of collective idiots. Your condescension is only surpassed by your arrogant belief that yours is the only credible opinion to be considered in this conversation. Trust me when I tell you that it is not.

Much of the data you have referenced throughout this thread has been dated and/or incomplete. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but it is a fact.. At the same time you have either dismissed or mocked the data others have introduced because it has contradicted the narrative that you choose to believe. YOU are the one who needs to unplug from Google, and all of the other bullshit biased media sources you have been citing. Keep posting BS and I will keep calling you out on it every time.

Fairly worthless?

You have taken this out of context which so many on here often do... Regardless, in the context I said it, yes, they vaccines are proving to be fairly worthless in terms of PREVENTION of contracting Covid with specific regard to the Delta variant. I never dismissed their value as as they are now being marketed as less of a prevention and more of a thearapudic to lessen the severity of disease and lower hospitalizations and overall deaths..

I am 100% in favor of anybody doing anything they feel they need to do to protect and treat themselves with this virus including vaccinations and alternative drug therapies. I am a firm believer in your body your choice.. My only objective in entering into this discussion was to point out the reality that vaccines, although certainly of great value for many, are not that miracle cure, and much more needs to be done in combating this virus. This is something which we all should be encouraging instead of disparaging.

By the way, I hope your friend and his wife recover. This is a serious and terrible illness for many that me and my wife both had. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. It's a shame that too many folks have had to suffer needlessly due to the politicization of a medical crisis. Let's go Brandon!