CEB crimp issue?

[Frederik Badenhorst]

I used the .457” bullets

 

[fourfive8]

Notwithstanding the apparent lack of general knowledge about proper crimping, there is also an underlying issue of the odd CEB brass monolithic design. Many of their brass bullets have few drive bands on the shank with whole sections of the shank completely devoid of drive bands. I assume that design is a result of early R&D and is meant to keep pressure and bore friction under control given the nature of monolithic brass.

No mystery why neck tension or lack thereof can be an issue with these bullets. I have shot a few CEBs with that wonky shank drive band design, out of curiosity, in both a 416 Rem Mag and a 450 Watts. They shot ok, but I simply do not trust the shank design where neck tension, let alone alignment, is so uncertain and where nearly 100% of the bullet security in the case is determined by the crimp. Additionally, the forward drive bands are so close together, proper and secure crimping is problematic from the get go. So, I haven't and won't use them for hunting, especially DG hunting. IMO, there are other equal or better DG bullet choices out there.

Pics of CEB Raptor and CEB Solid. The 416 Raptor pic is from their site and the 458 Solid is one of mine that was handy for a pic.

 

[roklok]

Curious what you are referring to as a lack of knowledge of proper crimping. Care to enlighten the group ? In my case that led to my learning experience, my magazine box was too short to crimp between driving bands, so I was forced to crimp in front of band. Didnt work, so CEB are not used for that .375, I switched to Swift break-aways.

 

[michael458]

@michael458, would you have any thoughts on this matter?

Phil, a few thoughts, but probably nothing definitive. I have never used a Lee Crimp die, so I have no experience with any issues that might arise with one.

I am fairly confident I have loaded more CEB bullets in different cartridges than any 10-20++ other hand loaders combined. The only similar experience occurred with Hornady brass which sometimes is too thin. I had some thin Hornady brass that just did not have enough tension in 458 Lott. For my B&M series you cannot use Hornady RUM brass for some of the cartridges because it is also too thin and can't get enough tension.

I believe I read where Brandon is using a brand new batch of Norma brass, and I love Norma brass it is the best on the market in my opinion. I doubt there is a thin issue, but anything can be possible.

Now I am not 100% sure how this Lee Crimp die works exactly, I have read about it, but I am not up to speed, so I don't know if this might apply or not. I have seen in some handgun cartridges where you use the taper crimp for cartridges used in semi handguns, that if you taper crimp too much with some bullets the bullet becomes loose in the case. Too much taper crimp causes the case to spring back somehow, don't ask me how, it is just so. I have no idea if that is relevant with the Lee Crimp Die.

Roll crimp, if you get too happy with it, that sets the case back, bulging it, and it won't chamber. Or that is my experience anyway.

Those "Wonky" bands that @fourfive8 refers to were designed here after a great deal of study and pressure tests. Several reasons for those bands, indeed the 4 band setup, 3 at the top, one at the bottom decreases pressure from 6000 PSI to as much as 8100 PSI on average. We conducted pressure tests between 8 bands and 4 bands.

We also conducted barrel strain tests in .458 caliber, .474 caliber and .510 caliber with several different band designs, even going down to 2 bands, 1 top, 1 bottom, the measure actual barrel strain, or expansion of the barrel as the bullet passes that point. We used strain gage and pressure data to measure that. We tried many variations of the bands, even having some bands undersized by .001 to see if that made a difference. This was done in comparison to many other common bullets, and we used the Woodleigh Soft as a "Benchmark" bullet. All bullets that gave less barrel strain than the Woodleigh Soft were considered good, all over considered not so good. Barrel strain is determined by bearing surface and diameter. In all cases, all tests, the CEB Band Configuration and the North Fork micro bands gave considerably less barrel strain than all other bullets tested. This was consistent through all calibers tested.

Many variations of the bands were considered, and in the end we settled on the 3 top bands + the one at the base. The one at the base is required to keep the bullet in alignment as it leaves the bore.

The space in between bands is a bit close, and that is probably in the end my fault for sure. It could easily be modified to be slightly wider if CEB chose to do so. At the time, I was primarily working on the design for my cartridges. The only B&M cartridge that needs a crimp of any kind is the 500 MDM a 2.8 inch RUM case. The other standard B&Ms are cut and trimmed RUM brass down to 2.240--2.250 inches. When you start cutting RUM brass to that length, the brass is much thicker at that point than at the top. I had more than enough neck tension to hold the bullets tight and never even consider a crimp. In addition to that, I run bolt guns, and I love compressed loads, set back is not considered. Between the increase case thickness at 2.240 and the compressed loads, I never considered to worry about increasing the space in the bands. I did not need to.

That 480 gr .458 Solid and its matching 450 Raptor are actually .457. These are a one off in the CEB designs. Early on, when Sam and I were considering the bearing surface and double rifles, Sam wanted to make those at .457 instead of .458. And, another thing, the space between the bands is slightly wider, as I remember. Our thinking at the time, make that bullet ultra safe for the doubles. After we finished the barrel strain study, it really was a moot point. But, the bullet never was changed back to .458. I recently had a pile of those left over from back in the day. I loaded all of them in my 458 B&M EX case, an experimental 2.5 inch RUM case. They shoot great and at 2400 fps are hammers.

In other common cartridges I use, and have loaded for, you just have to be a little more careful in getting the seating depth right, and you damn sure need to trim all your cases to the same length, or you will have issues.

Accuracy with the 4 bands....... I am not a long range shooter by any stretch of the imagination. 50 Yards is my LONG RANGE. Recently 25 yards is getting to be long range for me. That said, I do have long range pals that have consistently shot better than MOA from 400 to 600 yards with the CEBs and 4 bands.. Accuracy is not an issue.

A tiny bit of advice for hand loaders that might be having an issue in some cartridges, or some rifles seating any bullet, not just CEB, but any bullet, at just the right length to work in the magazine or what have you. You can trim that case back substantially to allow something to fit your needs. I have in many many cases had a bullet that just would not work at the standard case length. I would cut that case back until it did work, sometimes substantially, and it did not make any difference at all in performance, pressures or any other factor. I remember once years on top of years ago I had a batch of Woodleighs that the crimp groove was in the wrong place on the bullet. I was trying to load them in 458 Lott, before the days of Hornady brass. I could not use these bullets in a Winchester M70 because if I crimped in the groove, they were too long to work in the magazine. I cut the case back, rather substantially, and I could use those bullets. Yes, I was screwed with some shorter cases for future use, the only downside. HEH...........

Another case comes to mind my own 50 B&M Alaskan lever gun cartridge. I was working with Layne Simpson with his 50 B&M Alaskan on a Marlin action. He wanted to use those 300 gr Hornady Flex bullets. But loaded and crimped in the groove on those, they were too long for the Marlin action. I trimmed some brass down from 2.1 inches to 1.970 inches and it would work in the Marlin action, and there were no issues with that. So you can modify the case if you need to without a lot of major consequences.

Brandon I wish I had a solution to your problem. I know you have a lot of experience with the CEBs, and have been doing the same loads in the past. Right now, I hate to consider it, but the only change from THEN, to NOW..... is the new batch of Norma brass? Very possible that some adjustment to your dies might solve this? Possibly some minor anamoly in the new brass? It could be minor, but that would be the first place I would investigate, since that is the major change.
Everything about the current CEB #13s was meticously designed to give the performance that many of you are experiencing. There is not one thing about that bullet that has not been studied from top to bottom, from side to side. From the bands, to the position of the bands, to the meplat size, to radius edges of the meplat, to the degree of the angle off the nose, the nose projection above the top bands, everything. Did we miss something? Maybe, there is always opportunity for Discovery, and just maybe, we have not discovered it yet?

 

[michael458]

Speaking of "WONKY"............... This is some Wonky bands........... The wide 4 band was horrible trying to load, and it was dropped very quickly...... It tested great, but was way too difficult to load and work with, plus it looked like crap warmed over.............Obviously it never made it to production except for me, I think I had 250 or more of those.......

How about these for Wonky

HEH HEH HEH....... I just ran across this one............... Not sure if this is a WONKY design or a damn WANKER design????????? HEH HEHHEH

These big long nose projection hollow base bullets were extremely interesting.......... Hollow Base bullets is one area of study we never did get back to. Very intriguing.

I bet not one of you have some WONKY North Forks!!!!!!!!! I have some WONKY North Forks!

I am pretty sure I have WONKY covered.................. HEH HEH..............

 

[zephyr]

Have you checked the dia of the expander ball in your sizer dia.. going through my loading notes I had the same difficulties.. bullet seemed loose after seating so I turned down the expander ball a few thou that seemed to solve the problem