Avoiding CTE, brain damage, retina injury etc with big bore rifles ?

[Major Bonkers]

For what it's worth:

(1) check that the rifle is properly fitted to you. 'Pondoro' Taylor makes the same point.

(2) have a look at the high comb stocks fitted to the Mannlicher MC models. I have stolen some images off the internet and posted them . The pancake design of the comb - while looking a little weird - allows you to slide your cheek up and down and works well. You can buy a part-finished stock from this chap:

https://cottagecraftworks.com/mannl...2sV89AN3N_KBl0x9HYr44GBVL5qIVsdcaD-FxqyqyZ7Yb

(3) alternatively: either pad the comb or keep your cheek off the comb when you fire. Perhaps the recoil is transmitting through the comb, to your cheekbone, to your head. Certainly my .470 does this to me: firing it with a tight cheek weld leaves my head feeling like the clapper in a bell.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I prefer to pull the rifle back into my shoulder firmly with both hands. Then while squeezing the trigger and aiming, increasing my grip pressure as the rifle fires. I try to take as much recoil with my hands and arms as possible while maintaining the sight picture. So 100% of recoil isn’t directed into the shoulder.

I also push my check weld firmly into the stock. I prefer to move as much as feasible as one unit.
I don’t want my head away from the comb. Allowing the stock to gain momentum before smacking me in the face.


Most high recoiling rifles without porting have substantial muzzle flip. So as the stock is coming back and the muzzle rises, the stock is usually going down and away from your cheekbone so should not be slapping you in a cheek.

Knowing that the rifle is going to recoil straight back and most of it is going into your shoulder. But hopefully my hands and arms can take some of it as the rifle slides backwards.

.416 Taylor

.505 Gibbs

 

[Sabre]

I have recently purchased a very nice .458 WM ( https://www.africahunting.com/threads/custom-rifle-ranch-458-win-mag.90030/ ) , and have been shooting it a bit zeroing iron sights that I installed. I love the rifle, and feel it is built correctly for a big bore. It has a wide comb that rises slightly to the rear, a wide butt, weighted 10 pounds with scope, a bit over 9 without scope. LOP is correct for me as far as I can tell (matches most every other rifle I shoot). I shoot it well, and can shoot it comfortably EXCEPT that I get a mild headache after a few rounds that lingers for days. It is really ruining my fun. I am a bit worried about long term health effects of shooting it. I have only shot it from the standing position off a barricade or sticks, not from bench. I am preparing for a 2026 buff and elephant hunt, shooting a 450 grain bullet at a chronoed 2310 FPS, with a recoil energy of 64 ft/lbs. Not insignificant, but not nearly as heavy as some of the real big boys. I have been shooting it with four cartridges in trap in buttstock, so weight is about 10 pounds without scope. I am probably an average sized 50 year old, 5' 11" 170 pounds.

The stock is not smacking my cheek, my shoulder doesn't have any issues, it seems the headache is caused by the recoil energy delivered causing rapid skull movement. I have seen CTE, retina detachment, etc mentioned in discussing big bore rifles, but nothing detailed or really much in the way of avoiding it. I imagine it is possible that I have some sort of medical condition that would exacerbate this problem, but I have had brain scans in the past which showed no issues. The last such scan was following a concussion a few years back, maybe prior concussions are to blame in the cumulative effect.

So what do the big bore experts here say ? Is this just something that goes with the territory with big rifles ? Am I an outlier in getting headaches from recoil ? What can I do to avoid this issue other than being satisfied with shooting and hunting with my 375s ? Running numbers in a recoil calculator shows that if the rifle weighs two pounds more, 12 pounds, the recoil energy drops to about 53 ft/lbs, a fair reduction. I have prepared 4 cartridges filled with lead that weigh nearly a pound to put in buttstock while shooting. I have considered adding a tungsten weight inletted under the barrel in forearm to add another pound. This would give me a 12 pound rifle for practicing, and a bit over 11 while hunting with actual cartridges in buttstock. Would a strap on wearable pad help with this aspect of the effects of recoil ? I have never used a shoulder pad, and assumed that they primarily help with shoulder discomfort which is not my issue. I will not use a lead sled, In my opinion they are pointless because the point of impact shifts, they do not replicate field positions, and they are very hard on stocks. I have heard positive things about the Edwards recoil reducers, but I cant install one in this rifle because of the cartridge trap in butt.

I know of a local hunter who hunted/hunts in Africa that did experience a brain injury with symptoms similar to a stroke attributed to firing big rifles, I am uncertain of the cartridge but from talking with his friend assumed it was something a lot bigger than a 458 Winchester. Last year I did fire one round from my PHs Krieghoff 500 NE, killing a zebra, and did not notice any issues.

I would welcome all thoughts, anecdotes, first hand accounts, etc dealing with injuries from recoil or ways to mitigate the risk. I really want to shoot and hunt with this rifle, but not at the expense of my health.

I guy I hunted with a few times had a stroke almost immediately after shooting a 50 caliber rifle. He said when he was shooting it his head felt strange and shortly after shooting he started displaying signs of a stroke. He believed it was from the gun.

It would be hard to say 100% for sure, but I am guessing there are enough stories of this stuff out there to at least make a person consider that it is a possibility. I think it would make for an interesting medical study. I would also guess you would see an increase of ramifications shooting larger bore rifles increase with increased age. Just a logical assumption.

I am at a point in life where I don't have a lot of interest in shooting things that scramble my brain just for fun. I'd rather shoot a medium caliber rifle and enjoy my time shooting.

 

[HankBuck]

Been dealing with eye issues, nothing that seriously threatens me with blindness (caught it in time) but is just maddening, interferes with quality of life, and frankly aint all that safe behind the wheel at night, in a storm, and both at once? Fugeddaboutit.

Not to mention my shootin’.

This means I now have a retina surgeon and am fresh out of two no bullshit inner eye surgeries. Actually make that three. Fun times!

I took the opportunity to ask this highly regarded veteran eye surgeon about recoil originated eye injuries.

He gave me a blank look. Never heard a such a thing. Then he had staff do a publications search, did some himself. Watched him do it, professional subscriber only deep medicine journals.

Aint no there there.

He went a step further and hit up a crony of his, another eye surgeon, who, wait for it, is a firearms enthusiast and belongs to a quite serious rifle/shotgun/handgun club.

Am told the crony laughed and said, “If that were the case, 90% of the club would be blind!”

And there you have it.

Now, who’s got a neurologist?

@ChooChoo404 - agree, my Glaucoma Specialist told me the same thing as did Retinologist, Unless you have a Detached Retina (which I’ve never had) no concerns on shooting. Now, I don’t think that included 20 to 100 rounds a week with .458, 470NE, 600NE etc…. But the occasional range session, hunting seemed to be of no concern. I would think every Member with a concern or Eye “condition” should speak to their own Eye Doctor —- and NOT take the advice found on these posts.

 

[HankBuck]

I prefer to pull the rifle back into my shoulder firmly with both hands. Then while squeezing the trigger and aiming, increasing my grip pressure as the rifle fires. I try to take as much recoil with my hands and arms as possible while maintaining the sight picture. So 100% of recoil isn’t directed into the shoulder.

I also push my check weld firmly into the stock. I prefer to move as much as feasible as one unit.
I don’t want my head away from the comb. Allowing the stock to gain momentum before smacking me in the face.


Most high recoiling rifles without porting have substantial muzzle flip. So as the stock is coming back and the muzzle rises, the stock is usually going down and away from your cheekbone so should not be slapping you in a cheek.

Knowing that the rifle is going to recoil straight back and most of it is going into your shoulder. But hopefully my hands and arms can take some of it as the rifle slides backwards.


View attachment 711761View attachment 711762.416 Taylor

View attachment 711763View attachment 711764.505 Gibbs

@Altitude sickness - that is an extremely Wide Stance also your entire body looks very “stiff”, can you shoot accurately that way? Also, still looks like recoil goes back into your shoulder, as it should, but also muzzle still flips Up - which can’t be prevented.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Yes but I am not rocked back off balance on “my back foot” as they say.

.505 Gibbs taped up holes were on the sticks at 50 yards. the circled holes are CEB 525gr and the vertical holes are Northfork 600 gr free hand at 20 yards.

Yes. The rifle is built to direct most of the energy through the stock to the recoil pad into the shoulder.

The elephant was 15-17 yards freehand. So to answer your question. Yeah I can shoot it that way at crunch time.

 

[Altitude sickness]

The .416 Taylor and Buffalo at 30 some to maybe 40 yards. The bull fell forward and was dead by the time we walked up to it. Didn’t need an insurance shot.

I’m not a shooting instructor by any means but it works for me.

Top pic is exit. Zoom on bottom pick for entrance. Which was straight up the leg.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

@Altitude sickness - that is an extremely Wide Stance also your entire body looks very “stiff”, can you shoot accurately that way? Also, still looks like recoil goes back into your shoulder, as it should, but also muzzle still flips Up - which can’t be prevented.

However @Altitude sickness 's shooting stance looks, it works for him! I shoot with him every month or two and have watched and even filmed him shooting as shown in this video;

Of the four shooters of the pre-production Montana Rifle Company .375 H&H, each has a different stance.

Yes but I am not rocked back off balance on “my back foot” as they say

.505 Gibbs taped up holes were on the sticks at 50 yards. the circled holes are CEB 525gr and the vertical holes are Northfork 600 gr free hand at 20 yards.

Yes. The rifle is built to direct most of the energy through the stock to the recoil pad into the shoulder.

The elephant was 15-17 yards freehand. So to answer your question. Yeah I can shoot it that way at crunch time.

@Altitude sickness leaned way forward shooting his .505 Gibbs and was hitting Minute of Buffalo. Small enough groups for waht may be a true stoppoing rifle! Me, well that's me in the above video in what's left of my Super Human suit, the USMC cammie blouse. My stance is a modified forward leaning competition offhand shooting stance. This contributes to my accuracy but even the .375 with a break sways we back like i was a willow tree!

I shot that .505 Gibbs exactly two times and quickly knew that with my shooting style, the .505 is best left to those shooting rocks like @Altitude sickness !

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I shoot skeet with 1 1/8 oz 12 gauge shells and yes, I will get rocked back shooting doubles because I pull from the low gun position which usually does not afford me the opportunity to step into the shot, mount, and lean before pulling like most of the guys. The reason is twofold. First, I am an upland hunter and virtually never have an opportunity to step into and lean before getting a shot at a pheasant, especially late in the season. It's quick instinctive shooting. For me the chief object of skeet shooting is improve my field hunting. Given my age and crappy eyesight I could never be competitive at skeet anyway. Second, shooting high gun (mounted before target is pulled) allows me too much time to overthink the shot and/or aim the shotgun. Both = missing the target. So, I have learned to successfully break the second target of a pair while being rocked off balance after the first shot. Sometimes I'll actually pull the pair on #7 with A5 crooked under my right arm (if club safety officer isn't around - he's a self-pontificating pimple-picking prick ). And I rarely miss either target.

The point being I question how useful a special recoil mitigating stance at the range might be in the field? Now, don't anyone get their shorts in a knot. I'm merely thinking out loud.

 

[frog stealer]

Good discussion! I shoot my .577 double rifle a few times per month. At each session, I can shoot full power (750 at 2050) loads about 8 times before a mild headache sets in. After that, I shoot lesser rifles for the remainder of the day, and my headache goes away after a few minutes. I can do the same thing during the next day, with the same results.

By comparison, I can easily shoot 50 rounds during load development through my .375 H&H express rifle (same make as my double) off the bench without any discomfort. I wear the magnum version of the PAST recoil pad, and it does wonders for shooting comfort. I typically put it on at the beginning of a range session, and wear it the entire time, even with small caliber rifles and never get any bruising.

I also developed some reduced loads for my .577 that regulate very well. I can easily get through 20+ rounds with no discomfort. These loads are 590 grain cast bullets pushed to about 1750 fps. While not as easy to shoot as my .375, it allows be to get more trigger time in with that rifle.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@ChooChoo404 - agree, my Glaucoma Specialist told me the same thing as did Retinologist, Unless you have a Detached Retina (which I’ve never had) no concerns on shooting. Now, I don’t think that included 20 to 100 rounds a week with .458, 470NE, 600NE etc…. But the occasional range session, hunting seemed to be of no concern. I would think every Member with a concern or Eye “condition” should speak to their own Eye Doctor —- and NOT take the advice found on these posts.

Sure, you can wait for a retina detachment before taking precautions ... and still possibly lose the eye. Most "spontaneous" detachments do occur at the periphery where shrinkage tears are more likely to occur. But then they can proceed very quickly. If the retina continues to detache to the macula, the probability of saving the eye is very slim. I noticed something was wrong with my eye after I got up in the morning. I thought an object was lodged in it. Wife couldn't find anything and finally after late lunch I closed the right eye. Then in the left eye I could see the "curtain" with shimmering edge in lower quadrant (which actually means upper quadrant inside the eye). I then suspected detachment, went to ER, and call went out for on-call ophthalmologist. He told the ER doctor I should come back in the morning (it was holiday weekend, he was at his cottage, and probably gassed up). I was at the hospital bright and early next day. He showed up at 10:30 and by the time he finally looked in my eye after 11:00, the detachment was already approaching the macula. He was very alarmed: "We need to get you to Winnipeg or Toronto for surgery NOW!" Well, doc, it ain't gonna happen NOW, because the last morning flights left an hour ago! He actually started to cry. I went home and hung my head upside down off the edge of the couch until the evening flights. The surgeon in Winnipeg had a gurney waiting at the curb when the cab arrived at the hospital shortly before nine. Went straight to surgery. I don't recall even changing into a gown. By then the detachment was almost touching the macula (where optic nerve attaches). It was a very close call!

Now, consider you're at some hunting camp in Africa and the same thing happens when you have your first detachment. Is your retina going to hang in there till you can get to someplace with facilities and skilled staff to do surgery? Winnipeg is only an eight hour drive from my home (less than an hour in the air) and I almost didn't make it in time. Govern yourself accordingly, especially if in any of the high risk categories. Incidentally, Lasix surgery does not cure the risk for near sighted individuals. It only changes the shape of the cornea. It's the shape of the eyeball that increases the risk of detachments.