Another large caliber thread .404 or .416

[AZDAVE]

IvW are you having the barrel rebored and rifled? or new barrel installed?

 

[IvW]

IvW are you having the barrel rebored and rifled? or new barrel installed?

Re-barreled here in South Africa I do not know of anybody who can re-bore and rifle the barrel

 

[Rule 303]

Gert, Thank you for the insight.
I have to ask, how do you convert a 375H&H case into a 404 J case. This would take some doing.

Cheers

Greg

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Good day to you Greg.
Greg , I do not know if I am allowed to post a thread of another forum here. I need to ask Jerome`s permission. Will you be fine with it if I send you the link via PM so you can look at the whole process of fire forming a .375 H&H Magnum belted brass/case to a non- belted 404 Jeffery brass..I still shoot those fire-formed brass today without any difficulties..it really was an excellent experience ..might I add , I did it with the guidance of my mentor and gunsmith , Johan Greyling..the rationale was at that stage I was not able to get 404 Jeffery brass..later after the process I managed to purchase Hornady brass and a member on an American forum send me 40 x 404 Jeffery brass as well.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Greg, I send you a link via PM regarding this process, it is on another forum I am a member of.

Regards

Gert Odendaal

 

[Bos Javanicus]

You really do need a proper magnum length action for the 404, 416Rigby.

Both the above cals can be quite easily made to fit a standard length action. And many have been made on this action with no problems at all. It will also eliminate the possibility of short stroking the bolt. I have had made a .404 on a magnum action and if I was to do it all over again it would be on a standard length 98 action.

 

[Rule 303]

Greg, I send you a link via PM regarding this process, it is on another forum I am a member of.

Regards

Gert Odendaal

Thanks Gert.

 

[Rule 303]

Hi Bos, I understand what you are saying, however for me the standard length 98 action can not be opened up enough except for the 416 Rigby. With the voluminous case of the Rigby I don't have to seat the bullets out to archive 2450 fps with a 400 grain bullet, even the mono-metal bullets. With the 404J, 375H&H I like to run them hot ie safe pressure but get max velocity that the case will allow. To do this I need to seat the bullets out and with mono-metals they are longer than the same weight cup and core bullets. Rigby was talking about having their magnum length actions, lengthened to handle the mono-metal bullets. Please note I don't have a 404J but if I did the above would apply. Also I do work my loads up so they are safe in my rifles.

 

[IvW]

Hi Bos, I understand what you are saying, however for me the standard length 98 action can not be opened up enough except for the 416 Rigby. With the voluminous case of the Rigby I don't have to seat the bullets out to archive 2450 fps with a 400 grain bullet, even the mono-metal bullets. With the 404J, 375H&H I like to run them hot ie safe pressure but get max velocity that the case will allow. To do this I need to seat the bullets out and with mono-metals they are longer than the same weight cup and core bullets. Rigby was talking about having their magnum length actions, lengthened to handle the mono-metal bullets. Please note I don't have a 404J but if I did the above would apply. Also I do work my loads up so they are safe in my rifles.

Nothing @ you Rule 303.

Never could understand why the need for speed or loading DG cartridges hot! For more than 100 years all these cartridges have built up their reputations in Africa with their original loads.

What gains are their to be had in the bush by pushing them to max pressures and velocities?

Only gain would be increased recoil, increased flinching, increased bad shooting and decrease in bullet performance!

If more speed and recoil is required rather step up to a different calibre.
Try a 416 Weatherby with 400gr bullets at 2675 fps or a 378 Weatherby with a 300gr bullet at 2925 fps. Sure the animal on the receiving end is gonna die if you use premium bullets that can handle the velocity. That;s if you can hit it in the first place with one of these speed freaks.

Loaded with premium grade bullets, anyone of these golden oldies the 375 H&H, 404 Jeff or the 416 Rigby can kill any animal on the planet, at original velocities. No need to increase the velocity.

 

[Velo Dog]

Nothing @ you Rule 303.

Never could understand why the need for speed or loading DG cartridges hot! For more than 100 years all these cartridges have built up their reputations in Africa with their original loads.

What gains are their to be had in the bush by pushing them to max pressures and velocities?

Only gain would be increased recoil, increased flinching, increased bad shooting and decrease in bullet performance!

If more speed and recoil is required rather step up to a different calibre.
Try a 416 Weatherby with 400gr bullets at 2675 fps or a 378 Weatherby with a 300gr bullet at 2925 fps. Sure the animal on the receiving end is gonna die if you use premium bullets that can handle the velocity. That;s if you can hit it in the first place with one of these speed freaks.

Loaded with premium grade bullets, anyone of these golden oldies the 375 H&H, 404 Jeff or the 416 Rigby can kill any animal on the planet, at original velocities. No need to increase the velocity.

IvW,

I'm totally +1 with you on this.

Too bad the highest mark available is "Like", because your post here definitely deserves something more such as, "Words to live by" or, "Gospel Truth" (or, I'm having your words tattooed on my forehead - LOL)

Regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[Rule 303]

Nothing @ you Rule 303.

Never could understand why the need for speed or loading DG cartridges hot! For more than 100 years all these cartridges have built up their reputations in Africa with their original loads.

What gains are their to be had in the bush by pushing them to max pressures and velocities?

Only gain would be increased recoil, increased flinching, increased bad shooting and decrease in bullet performance!

If more speed and recoil is required rather step up to a different calibre.
Try a 416 Weatherby with 400gr bullets at 2675 fps or a 378 Weatherby with a 300gr bullet at 2925 fps. Sure the animal on the receiving end is gonna die if you use premium bullets that can handle the velocity. That;s if you can hit it in the first place with one of these speed freaks.

Loaded with premium grade bullets, anyone of these golden oldies the 375 H&H, 404 Jeff or the 416 Rigby can kill any animal on the planet, at original velocities. No need to increase the velocity.

I agree with what you say and it is very true IMHO. However most of those published velocities were wishful thinking. This supports what you say even more. It's just that I like to ring the most out of most cartridges, that is obtained the published velocities or a tad more. Lets be clear, this is just me and I do know that 50fps is not going to make one iota of difference to the animal. It might to accuracy and that is what I aim for. In most of my rifles I am getting best accuracy at or just above max published velocities. The other point not to forget is the mono-metals. They take up a fair bit of extra room and decrease usable powder space. This reduced powder space means published velocities for the same bullet weight are not obtainable. This is were longer magazine length and long throating helps.

As Bos said opening up the standard 98 action is quite safely doable for the published length of the 404j, 375H&H, 416 Rigby (something I did not know). So if you do not want to use mono-metal bullets of the same weight I see no reason not to go this way if you want to. That piece of info certainly changed my outlook on that issue.

The 416 Rigby does fine at 2450 fps for the 410 grain soft nose and same loads puts Woodleigh Hydro's to same point of impact and just as tight a group but produces 2550fps.

 

[IvW]

Some observations regarding bullet choice and velocities.

I do not use Woodleigh's in my 500 Jeff or 375 H&H as they expand too quickly with the resulting over expanded bullet not giving me the penetration and performance I require. They will work fine on Leopard and Lioness. They also work fine in double rifle(NE) calibre's due to the low velocities generated by them, typically 2100 fps.

As for old style FMJ or "round nosed solids", I stay away from them as they only create calibre sized wound channels and due to their nose shape are easily deflected off course (before or after penetrating a n animal).

I have found that velocities from 2100-2400 fps in calibres 375 H7H and up is what you need for optimum performance. 2300-2400 fps being the sweet spot for calibre's I use.

I must admit I have not used or tested the Woodleigh hydro's and probably will not as I have found that a large meplat monometal solid outperforms any other solid by a wide margin.

A properly constructed meplat bullet, creates disproportionate to calibre wounding channels. A pointed or round nosed(typically FMJ) bullet would create a calibre sized wound. It is this disproportionate to calibre wound channel that is of most importance to the hunter as it is this phenomenon that promotes fast clean killing/stopping power and can mean the difference between life and death on either side of the rifle.

The higher the impact velocity, the greater the resistance. The greater the resistance the less the penetration. This happens simply because due to the design, the blood or water molecules in the tissue of the animal, cannot move away from the flat point bullet fast enough. So as the velocity increases, wound channel diameter increases, however penetration decreases.

You have to find the sweetspot of speed versus penetration to get the optimum killing/stopping ability of your chosen calibre and bullet.

In my many years off DG hunting using mainly the 375 H&H Magnum and the 500 Jeff I have found the following bullet and velocity options give me the best results:

375 H&H-340 grn Rhino solid (meplat design) @ 2300 fps and a 350 grn Rhino solid shank expanding bullet @ 2300 or a 380 grn Rhino solid shank expanding bullet @ 2200 fps.

500 Jeff-570 grn Rhino solid (meplat design) and 570 grn Rhino solid shank expanding bullet @2300 fps.

I have shot a White Rhino with the 500 Jeff and mentioned 570 solid, almost full frontal, centre at 20 yards between the front leg and neck and had this bullet exit just in front of the opposite back leg!

The solid shank expanding 570 grn Rhino soft performs so well that I have used that exclusively on back-up for buffalo. I have stopped a few charges with this combination with devastating results.

Side brain shots on elephant, with the 340gr solid 375 H&H, whistles right through.

You should try some penetration experiments with different bullet designs and velocities, you may be surprised at the outcome.

I did and therefore use the above combinations as they do what I need them to do, every time.

 

[Rule 303]

IvW, informative.

A couple of notes. Woodleigh now make a tougher 375, 300grain soft nose projectile. Not trying to change your choice of bullet, just for information.

The Hydrostatics, basically the faster they go the better they work this is why I prefer them over the flat meplat design. However if they did not exist I would be using the flat meplat design bullets. I have found them to work incredible well. The Hydro in y 416Rigby entered the brisket of a buffalo at 50 mts and came to rest a couple of inches from the hide on the rump of the buff after going through pelvic bone at the rear. This is still impressive penetration. I have shot animals with the hydro through trees and brush with no sign of deflection and are aware of a few other such incidents. They like the flat meplat design produce a pressure wave in front of the bullet, but as said velocity does not decrease their effectiveness.

I will have to look up the Rhino solid shank expanding bullet. I take it that it is a mono-metal bullet that has some expansion. I prefer these type of bullets to the traditional cup an core as I have found they hold together better when hitting solid bone.

"You should try some penetration experiments with different bullet designs and velocities, you may be surprised at the outcome." Yes, I have done this with some bullets and calibres. Mainly non dangerous game calibres and the 416 Rigby. This, along with results on game, is why I like the flat meplat bullets. I doubt that I have done the testing you have and I certainly have not taken the larger game that you have.