550 grain North Fork SS in .458 Lott

[SRvet]

Has anyone used this combination for buffalo or other thick skinned game? What velocity did you achieve and what was on game performance like? I am unsure if the 550 grain SS bullet is best used in the 450 Rigby and 460 Weatherby with the 458 Lott being better restricted to 500 grain SS bullets. Any words of wisdom are appreciated!

 

[generalzip]

I can’t speak to use on game, but I have done a lot of research on these cartridges recently and have about 15 years of experience with reloading and long range shooting as well as hunting in general (just for background).

The 458 Lott as you know was invented to solved the issue with the 458 win mag needing compressed loads due to the powders available at the time not having enough bulk density. This let to clumping of the powder which is no longer an issue today through powder and coating enhancements as well as new higher density powders like re10x and 2230. This was all with a 500 grain bullet. So in short the Lott was optimized for use with 500 grain lead jacketed bullets with less compressed loads to achieve the same or slightly higher velocities as the 458 win mag.

Neither of those issues exist today with modern powders and the knowledge we have with reloading practices. Today, the Lott is able to produce 100 fps more quite easily with these modern powders with the same bullet. The key takeaway here is the advantage of the Lott from its original purpose is null and void at this point as the issues with the win mag were address. Sure, you can get more velocity with the Lott today with modern powders but the recoil is significantly more as well when loaded to equal pressures

Another key point is that the freebore on the Lott is actually shorter than the win mag. Therefore a long loaded win mag performs nearly identical to a standard Lott offering. Of course you need a longer Lott length magazine to accomplish this. Basically in a word what I’m trying to say is the Lott is limited by freebore while the win mag is limited by mag length (in rifles with standard length actions and magazines). The win mag is limited by case capacity in the shorter 3.34” standard length action and mags.

Therefore, imo a 550 grain bullet would be too long for Lott as you are still restricted to the freebore of the chamber, thus by loading it shorter you’ll be eating into more case capacity and have lower velocities before pressuring out. On top of that the Lott with a 500 grain bullet already has plenty of stopping power as indicated through anecdotal evidence and also has a lot a recoil. A 550 grain bullet isn’t going to add much additional performance or value, if any at all.

Today’s bullets are far more advanced with solid monometal bullets. A 450 grain bullet has penetration and performance that meets or exceeds the older 500 grain bullets the win mag and Lott originally shot.

My advice is to load either a 450 or 500 grain CEB solid and pair it with a 420 or 470 grain raptor respectively. This will allow you to take any game on the planet. My personal choice would be the 450 and 420, but you certainly can choose the heavier ones with the Lott because you have a longer case and magazine. In my experience the more speed you give a solid, generally the better performance and penetration you’ll get. These bullets will not have deformation issue until 2800+ fps. Both of which you don’t need to worry about with this cartridge with these bullet weights. Max you’d see is maybe 2450-2500 with the lighter bullets I mentioned and around 2300-2400 with the heavier ones hand loaded properly.

Just my .02 if I was in your position. There are other great manufacturers for solids like NF, etc so by no means do you have to use CEB, that’s just what I personally shoes due to availability and previous performance I’ve seen using them.

Good luck

 

[DieJager]

Norma sells them loaded for the 458 lott so it is certainly done and tried. They are woodleighs though

 

[SRvet]

I can’t speak to use on game, but I have done a lot of research on these cartridges recently and have about 15 years of experience with reloading and long range shooting as well as hunting in general (just for background).

The 458 Lott as you know was invented to solved the issue with the 458 win mag needing compressed loads due to the powders available at the time not having enough bulk density. This let to clumping of the powder which is no longer an issue today through powder and coating enhancements as well as new higher density powders like re10x and 2230. This was all with a 500 grain bullet. So in short the Lott was optimized for use with 500 grain lead jacketed bullets with less compressed loads to achieve the same or slightly higher velocities as the 458 win mag.

Neither of those issues exist today with modern powders and the knowledge we have with reloading practices. Today, the Lott is able to produce 100 fps more quite easily with these modern powders with the same bullet. The key takeaway here is the advantage of the Lott from its original purpose is null and void at this point as the issues with the win mag were address. Sure, you can get more velocity with the Lott today with modern powders but the recoil is significantly more as well when loaded to equal pressures

Another key point is that the freebore on the Lott is actually shorter than the win mag. Therefore a long loaded win mag performs nearly identical to a standard Lott offering. Of course you need a longer Lott length magazine to accomplish this. Basically in a word what I’m trying to say is the Lott is limited by freebore while the win mag is limited by mag length (in rifles with standard length actions and magazines). The win mag is limited by case capacity in the shorter 3.34” standard length action and mags.

Therefore, imo a 550 grain bullet would be too long for Lott as you are still restricted to the freebore of the chamber, thus by loading it shorter you’ll be eating into more case capacity and have lower velocities before pressuring out. On top of that the Lott with a 500 grain bullet already has plenty of stopping power as indicated through anecdotal evidence and also has a lot a recoil. A 550 grain bullet isn’t going to add much additional performance or value, if any at all.

Today’s bullets are far more advanced with solid monometal bullets. A 450 grain bullet has penetration and performance that meets or exceeds the older 500 grain bullets the win mag and Lott originally shot.

My advice is to load either a 450 or 500 grain CEB solid and pair it with a 420 or 470 grain raptor respectively. This will allow you to take any game on the planet. My personal choice would be the 450 and 420, but you certainly can choose the heavier ones with the Lott because you have a longer case and magazine. In my experience the more speed you give a solid, generally the better performance and penetration you’ll get. These bullets will not have deformation issue until 2800+ fps. Both of which you don’t need to worry about with this cartridge with these bullet weights. Max you’d see is maybe 2450-2500 with the lighter bullets I mentioned and around 2300-2400 with the heavier ones hand loaded properly.

Just my .02 if I was in your position. There are other great manufacturers for solids like NF, etc so by no means do you have to use CEB, that’s just what I personally shoes due to availability and previous performance I’ve seen using them.

Good luck

Thanks for the feedback. I’m asking as a result of a situation that developed on a buffalo following my initial shot being with the 420 grain Raptor @2350fps. It was a quartering on shot that hit the top of the left humerus. To be fair the bullet base did penetrate the thorax and exit but the petals were nowhere to be seen. The subsequent 450grain safari solids performed exactly as expected and appeared to hit much harder than the 420g Raptor which with reflection is of concern. Now I’m not saying that the Raptor is a bad bullet but I got in touch with a well known expert in the field of hunting buffalo with thousands of buffalo under his belt who suggested that in his opinion the Raptor wasn’t a good choice for anything other than a broadside chest shot as the petals may be shed within the dewlap area and not cause the expected damage. A heavy for calibre bullet with bonded core or monolithic construction that expands and retains rather than shedding weight was advised as a much better option where frontal chest or quartering on shots are on the cards. Hence considering the heavy for calibre 550 grain bonded soft points.

 

[generalzip]

Thanks for the feedback. I’m asking as a result of a situation that developed on a buffalo following my initial shot being with the 420 grain Raptor @2350fps. It was a quartering on shot that hit the top of the left humerus. To be fair the bullet base did penetrate the thorax and exit but the petals were nowhere to be seen. The subsequent 450grain safari solids performed exactly as expected and appeared to hit much harder than the 420g Raptor which with reflection is of concern. Now I’m not saying that the Raptor is a bad bullet but I got in touch with a well known expert in the field of hunting buffalo with thousands of buffalo under his belt who suggested that in his opinion the Raptor wasn’t a good choice for anything other than a broadside chest shot as the petals may be shed within the dewlap area and not cause the expected damage. A heavy for calibre bullet with bonded core or monolithic construction that expands and retains rather than shedding weight was advised as a much better option where frontal chest or quartering on shots are on the cards. Hence considering the heavy for calibre 550 grain bonded soft points.

So it sounds like you want a bullet designed for non broadside shots where more than typical first shot penetration is required. In this case I’d look at something like a swift A frame or Barnes TSX. These will likely give you exactly what you’re looking for.

These will give you more consistent deep penetration through bone and off angle shots.

However if your bullet hit the humerus, I don’t really think any bullet would help you as this shot is low and would not do much damage to the vitals. Sounds like your bullet exited and the issue was just a low shot? Please let me know if I’m misunderstanding what happened as I’m picturing in my head a low shot that exited and missed most of the vitals? I’d think staying with the raptor and just practicing would better serve you than switching bullets. The 420 raptor is documented on this forum as one of if not the most effect bullets for Buffalo hunting, do it would surprise me that the bullet was the issue. That said if you lost confidence in the bullet I understand you wanting to try something else.

Please let me know if I misunderstood

 

[Brian]

I have used both and both are excellent. The CEB Raptor is awesome . I use it in .500 cal. and it has been a "Bang Flop" bullet on cape buffalo for me.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

I load the 550 grain Woodleighs for my CZ 458 Lott at an average velocity of 2172fps from a 25" barrel. Pretty much 500 nitro ballistics but with a 458 calibre bullet that has a SD of 0.375, hard to beat that for a DG load.

 

[SRvet]

The shot was not low and it hit where I aimed. It hit the humeral head immediately below the

So it sounds like you want a bullet designed for non broadside shots where more than typical first shot penetration is required. In this case I’d look at something like a swift A frame or Barnes TSX. These will likely give you exactly what you’re looking for.

These will give you more consistent deep penetration through bone and off angle shots.

However if your bullet hit the humerus, I don’t really think any bullet would help you as this shot is low and would not do much damage to the vitals. Sounds like your bullet exited and the issue was just a low shot? Please let me know if I’m misunderstanding what happened as I’m picturing in my head a low shot that exited and missed most of the vitals? I’d think staying with the raptor and just practicing would better serve you than switching bullets. The 420 raptor is documented on this forum as one of if not the most effect bullets for Buffalo hunting, do it would surprise me that the bullet was the issue. That said if you lost confidence in the bullet I understand you wanting to try something else.

Please let me know if I misunderstood

The shot was not low and it hit where I aimed. It hit the humeral head immediately below the shoulder joint not the mid shaft or distal humerus near the elbow joint as the buffalo was quartering. The solid shank penetrated through both lungs but did not hit the heart or great vessels which explained the prolonged time to death, which I believe ultimately only came about because of other shots using solids. As expected the wound channel from the bullet was narrow, as I don’t think the petals made it into the chest. The attached picture shows the approximate shot placement but the head was turned looking at me and the body was fractionally more quartering than on this photo. My bullet hit slightly lower than the red dot.
I suppose what this has made me realise is that I don’t want to use an expanding bullet that is picky about shot placement, I would rather it was able to cause a single large deep permanent wound channel rather than one narrow wound channel and six less deep and equally narrow wounds. Hope this makes sense

 

[SRvet]

I load the 550 grain Woodleighs for my CZ 458 Lott at an average velocity of 2172fps from a 25" barrel. Pretty much 500 nitro ballistics but with a 458 calibre bullet that has a SD of 0.375, hard to beat that for a DG load.

Sounds interesting, have you shot many buff with that load?

 

[generalzip]

The shot was not low and it hit where I aimed. It hit the humeral head immediately below the

The shot was not low and it hit where I aimed. It hit the humeral head immediately below the shoulder joint not the mid shaft or distal humerus near the elbow joint as the buffalo was quartering. The solid shank penetrated through both lungs but did not hit the heart or great vessels which explained the prolonged time to death, which I believe ultimately only came about because of other shots using solids. As expected the wound channel from the bullet was narrow, as I don’t think the petals made it into the chest. The attached picture shows the approximate shot placement but the head was turned looking at me and the body was fractionally more quartering than on this photo. My bullet hit slightly lower than the red dot.
I suppose what this has made me realise is that I don’t want to use an expanding bullet that is picky about shot placement, I would rather it was able to cause a single large deep permanent wound channel rather than one narrow wound channel and six less deep and equally narrow wounds. Hope this makes sense

I know this probably is not what you want to hear but I don’t think any other bullet would have helped in this scenario. You claim a solid did more damage but in reality that raptor slug did exactly what a solid would have done with the exception of a solid would have passed through and tossed the leftover energy into the dirt behind it or possibly hit another buffalo if one was behind it.

I don’t think any other bullet would have produced a more favorable result in this instance. A 550 grain bullet moving slower would not have caused more trauma, actually probably less than a full flat faced .458 raptor slug acting essentially as a wadcutter.

Even if the petals did not make it to the vitals on this shot (not surprising) it’s of my personal opinion no other bullet would have produced a fast death in this instant on a lung shot. Buffalo are tough animals and often why they require 2-3 shots sometimes.

It’s really interesting with animals. Having shot many game animals in the same spot with the same bullet I’ve had some bang flop and other run off into the thick. I have no explanation for this other than some animals have more will to live. I’ve found animals more aware of you presence at the time of the shot tend to run off more often however.

I wouldn’t lose sleep over it. It was a good shot and the fact is it was just a tough animal. Aside from jumping up to something like a 500NE, I don’t think you’d have had a more favorable result with this shot placement and angle with any other .458 cal bullet.

Just my personal opinion and happy to hear others. Your setup now sounds fantastic and I wouldn’t change a thing. Sometimes the grass isnt always greener.

 

[Nhoro]

I think a 550 gr soft point in the Lott is a bit of a stretch. I have heard good things about the 550 gr Woodleigh solid at 2150 fps. A 500 gr soft at 2300 fps is more than enough. You need a reasonable velocity to ensure expansion and penetration. I think a 550 gr soft may end up being unreliable. As for raptors, i prefer an a frame or my personal choice, a peregrine expanding copper bullet.

 

[SRvet]

I think a 550 gr soft point in the Lott is a bit of a stretch. I have heard good things about the 550 gr Woodleigh solid at 2150 fps. A 500 gr soft at 2300 fps is more than enough. You need a reasonable velocity to ensure expansion and penetration. I think a 550 gr soft may end up being unreliable. As for raptors, i prefer an a frame or my personal choice, a peregrine expanding copper bullet.

That was my concern that the 550 grain might be a bit of a stretch from the Lott. I could however see them being excellent in the 450 Rigby or other large cased cartridges. Can you tell me more about your experiences with the 500g Peregrine VRG3 bushmaster, especially on frontal chest shots?

 

[SRvet]

I know this probably is not what you want to hear but I don’t think any other bullet would have helped in this scenario. You claim a solid did more damage but in reality that raptor slug did exactly what a solid would have done with the exception of a solid would have passed through and tossed the leftover energy into the dirt behind it or possibly hit another buffalo if one was behind it.

I don’t think any other bullet would have produced a more favorable result in this instance. A 550 grain bullet moving slower would not have caused more trauma, actually probably less than a full flat faced .458 raptor slug acting essentially as a wadcutter.

Even if the petals did not make it to the vitals on this shot (not surprising) it’s of my personal opinion no other bullet would have produced a fast death in this instant on a lung shot. Buffalo are tough animals and often why they require 2-3 shots sometimes.

It’s really interesting with animals. Having shot many game animals in the same spot with the same bullet I’ve had some bang flop and other run off into the thick. I have no explanation for this other than some animals have more will to live. I’ve found animals more aware of you presence at the time of the shot tend to run off more often however.

I wouldn’t lose sleep over it. It was a good shot and the fact is it was just a tough animal. Aside from jumping up to something like a 500NE, I don’t think you’d have had a more favorable result with this shot placement and angle with any other .458 cal bullet.

Just my personal opinion and happy to hear others. Your setup now sounds fantastic and I wouldn’t change a thing. Sometimes the grass isnt always greener.

You might be right, perhaps other bullets would have had the same or worse performance. The advice I received has changed my point of view on the Raptors to the extent that I won’t use them on buffalo again so I’m looking for a controlled expansion weight retention design rather than a fragmenting bullet that will cope with frontal shots a bit better. I’m not massively experienced with buffalo but both I have shot were frontal shots rather than being broadside. I will however continue to use the solids as I believe in the design.

 

[generalzip]

You might be right, perhaps other bullets would have had the same or worse performance. The advice I received has changed my point of view on the Raptors to the extent that I won’t use them on buffalo again so I’m looking for a controlled expansion weight retention design rather than a fragmenting bullet that will cope with frontal shots a bit better. I’m not massively experienced with buffalo but both I have shot were frontal shots rather than being broadside. I will however continue to use the solids as I believe in the design.

Fair enough! There’s so many good options today it’s hard to go wrong. I’d have a look at the Barnes TSX or NF bullets in that case and it sounds like that would fit the bill for what you’re looking for. There’s swift a frames as well if you don’t mind a lead option.