500/416 NE

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by norfolk shooter, Jan 23, 2017.

  1. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    Red Leg , l am really sorry if l sounded disrespectful about the English pieces. I should probably expand on my statement a bit. First , we both Agree that William Evans is Amazing :D .
    The English gunmakers are superb. I just wanted to point out to Bee Maa , that they aren't infallible . I apologise to you ( and other fans of the English pieces ) as l should have worded my post much better and respectfully. Let's knock my Statement about Greener out of the way , first. They make great guns. I have a close friend who owns three of their shotguns ( two old and a new 2018 one ) . But the old ones have " Not for Ball " written on it. The new 10 gauge which he ordered was choked and Graham Greener himself directly emailed my Friend that none of their choked guns are built to fire slugs . I can show you a copy of this email if you like. It's not that there's a flaw with them. I just am not particularly keen about a gunmaker in the 21st century who can't make a choked shotgun shoot slugs ( something which a cheap J Stevens shotgun from the 1930s can do ) . I can produce the letter from Graham Greener to my friend :)
    Regards to the Westley Richards , this is something l personally asked the guys there when l was there. It's not a flaw . Certainly not. I just don't like the fact that they lowered the calibration of their .425 Westley Richards Mausers from accurate handling 2350 fps loads to 2150 fps loads.
    In my experiences hunting , lowering 200 fps of velocity for a 410 grain bullet doesn't do good penetration at the same distance a 2350 fps would . I actually made a note in my journal to discuss this point with the people at Westley Richards. Their answer was that " At the close ranges , you typically shoot elephant or buffalo these days , and with a professional Hunter backing you up , 2150 fps is adequate ". Again , this is not a flaw. Maybe a 2150 fps load for a 410 grain bullet is adequate , but l prefer the higher Velocity loads of the past.
    The Rigby .470 Double is ( admittedly ) not one of their new rising bite models , but a vintage " Best " piece from 1953 which my friend got in an auction . It actually does sometimes double if you have both barrels loaded. I am sadly one of the victims of that :( I posted about that one of the threads in the past .
    My comment about the Holland and Holland paradox is the only one l have no direct personal experience with. I read about it in an article which " Shooting Classics " did on the new Holland and Holland Paradox in 2015 , after Holland and Holland re introduced the paradox In 2012. The guy's testing it found that the best shot patterns using paradox gun came from shells with natural fibre wads , while other shells didn't do so well. Naturally , being the inquisitive gun enthusiast that l am , l made an enquiry about this to the Guys at Holland and Holland during my 2016 trip. Using their usual British Diplomacy :p they replied " Well , we find fibre wad light loads to be the most consistent performers in our paradox guns . Like our 1 ounce Royal game load " . Now , they are great guns . Pieces of Art , even. But to me , they appear to be highly " specialized ". For instance , a pigeon gun is suitable ONLY for upland game , while a Duck Gun is full choked with longer barrels , making it unsuitable for anything other than waterfowl. A Double barrelled cylinder gun from them may only be suitable for Slugs and not throwing shot very consistently . This is a strict contrast to US shotguns or continental shotguns , where you can basically use the same shotgun for Ducks with #1 , Quail with #6 and Deer with a Brenekke slug . I praised William Evans guns because like yourself , l have fired them and really , really liked one of their 12 gauge side by side upland shotguns. It belongs to my father in law. I can't comment on Purdey or Dickson or Watson brothers or Boss or Grant & Lang , because l have no experience with their. Guns. Am l averse to British guns ? Certainly not ! They are the pioneers in the field of making guns for this sport that we love and adore so much . I myself do plan on getting a WW Greener 10 gauge full choke side by side for Goose shooting if someday l learn to shoot side by sides like l do with over unders. But that will be a specialized Goose gun. At the moment , l own 4 guns in Total : My .375 HH Winchester Model 70 , my .350 Rigby Magnum ZKK-602 custom , my 12 gauge BRNO full choke Over under and my 10 gauge Browning semi automatic Gold Shotgun . Each of them is used for a wide range of applications. For the moment , I prefer guns which act as " Swiss army knives " ( if that analogy makes any sense ) which can be Versatile. For many years l had to make do with just the Winchester and the Browning . It's only in the last 2 years that I've been able to start affording custom guns and new rifles to supplement my battery :D

    I am most apologetic if l sounded like I was bashing English guns. I should have worded my views more sensibly .
    Finally , given that you have much more experience with these pieces than l do , l happily concede that l am wrong :)
    I like the Valmet Combination gun which has the upper barrel as a .22 Savage Hi Power Barrel and the lower barrel is a full choke 12 gauge . I have seen a beautiful example of one of these guns In Sweden being used on Roe deer with #1 shot or AAA alternatively. I am also a fan of The Turkish Dehaan shotguns and Spanish Aya shotguns :) .
    One thing l DO dislike about British Side by sides , is that they have a fore end which is contoured in such a way that you end up having to put your non shooting hand around the barrels for a good grip. After Firing a couple of shots , the barrels get so hot that you either burn your hand , have to give the gun time to cool , or most practically , use a glove . I experienced this phenomenon on a 12 gauge Westley Richards side by side in the UK . Continental shotguns don't seem to have this issue. If l were to make an educated guess , l would have to say the fore end contour has something to do with it.
    Again , l sincerely apologise for my insensitive comment on British guns
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019

  2. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    Thank you for the extended reply.

    A British game gun in 20/ 16/ 12/ or 10 bore is not designed to shoot slugs. They just aren't. It isn't why the people who buy such guns do so. I am sure Graham did put in writing not to use one of his guns for "ball" if he thought a customer might actually try it. Along with Greener, neither would a Rigby be so constructed nor a Westley Richards, etc. Most (12 bore) guns are proved for only 1 1/8 ounce loads. On virtually any shoot you may attend in the UK or Spain, the standard pheasant load is 1 ounce. They work spectacularly. And indeed, most shotguns, even a Mossberg actually performs better with felt wads rather than plastic. That is why there is something of a thriving boutique business in traditionally loaded shells - particularly for competitive shooters. However, if you order a bespoke Greener (or H&H or Westley Richards etc), they will happily build any capability into the gun you desire - for a price. The British do and have built 1 1/4 ounce proofed guns in 12 bore. They tend to fall into three categories then and now. First, is for live pigeon shooters (not hunters, but competitive shooters in the pigeon ring) and trap shooters; secondly, for hunting wildfowl; and finally for export to areas of the former Empire that value a general purpose gun. The old Greener "Empire" grade with its massive action was typical of the breed. With the metastasizing of inexpensive robust over-engineered repeaters (pump and semi-auto) and OU's following WWII, the overseas market for these still relatively expensive multi-purpose English guns evaporated.

    The manual of arms for any gun with a splinter forend - British, German, Spanish, Turkish, whatever is indeed to grasp the barrels with the off hand. It is hardly a phenomena - it is simply how one shoots such a gun. Shooters always use a glove on at least that off hand and have been doing so since the first breach loaders went afield in the late 19th century. Muzzle loaders were slow enough to shoot that it wasn't an issue.

    If a gun owner wants a general purpose shotgun, or Swiss Army knife as you suggest, the worst thing he can buy is a British game gun (or similarly configured French, Belgian, German, or Austrian gun). He or she is best served with an 7-8lb OU, semi-auto, or pump and a pouch of choke tubes. The better ones will handle 1 ounce thru magnum loads. Of course there are places where such a gun might be frowned upon, but people looking for such a shotgun aren't usually looking to take it to a quail plantation or driven grouse butt.

    Other shooters who love handling shotguns take exactly the opposite approach. Their guns are tailored specifically to the game or sport they are pursuing. Quail guns are light a lively, wildfowl guns heavy and steady, pigeon guns long an very precise. The joy for these sorts of enthusiasts is having the perfect tool in hand. When I shoot pigeons competitively, it is normally with a William Cashmore built before the First WW or beautifully engraved German guild gun built in the 30's - and both built for that specific purpose. Both have 32" tightly choked barrels that throw nearly 80% patterns with fiber wad 1 1/4 ounce loads. My bird guns are 28 and 20 bore wands that weigh 5 1/2 to six pounds. My two favorite waterfowl guns are a Connecticut Shotgun 12 bore and Winchester Model 21 "Heavy Duck". Both handle up to three-inch loads of lead or "heavy shot" beautifully.

    I should note many of those same shooters like to balance rifles to the game pursued as well. For southern whitetail, for instance, I believe a 30-06 is overkill. The vast majority of mine have been taken with the .270, 6.5x57, and 7x57 (.275). However a general purpose rifle probably should start with something like an 'o6.

    So, will a .375 kill a deer - of course. Will a 12 bore Gold label or 10 bore Greener knock down a quail - decisively. Just understand there are a host of highly skilled and experienced shooters and hunters who could simply never imagine why.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
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  3. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    Thank you so much for the indepth explanation and understanding my point of view , Red Leg.
    Yes , l definitely have a lot of respect for gentlemen who have a special tool tailored for every game they want to hunt. For me , personally , however , l like the appeal of multi purpose guns , out of sheer convenience and logistics . It's easier for me to stock pile on 4 calibers of ammo , than say ... 10 .
    Of course , l will supplement my battery with more guns ( Naturally , otherwise l wouldn't be a member of these forums :p ) in the future. I do have plans to build an 11.2 × 72 Schuler caliber rifle on a a ZKK-602 action someday ( l really wanna revive this caliber , as l believe that it has good potential ) . Of course , no one makes solids bullets for it any more , let alone factory Ammunition . So l will be stuck with handloaded Woodleigh soft nose bullets :( . Also , there is no guarantee that the project will work as no one has ever tried to chamber this obscure cartridge in a ZKK-602 action .
    Being a dedicated Waterfowl shooter , l will someday get a special purpose W W Greener 10 gauge full choke side by side for skybusting geese :D . Probably , in 2021 .
    Regarding versatile rifle calibers , much like yourself l love the .375 HH Magnum. And l do want a BRNO ZKK -602 in .375 HH Magnum to supplement my Winchester Model 70 in .375 HH Magnum . I am currently in negotiations with another hunter to buy an Excellent condition one , so l hope that goes well. I do go to Quail plantations and have been on pheasant shoots in the UK ( even last year :) ) and l always use a 12 gauge Over under shotgun . Not as traditional as a side by side , but not as frowned upon as my 10 gauge Browning semi auto :p .
    Among Side by sides , l am a big fan of the Old J Stevens 12 gauge models with the modified choke. By Granddad owns one and it fires everything from #6 to Brenekke slugs properly . MAYBE , someday , l will order a Nice .505 Gibbs Magnum Mauser from Gibbs of Bristol . But there's no plans to do so at the moment .
    At the moment , my next gun project is going to be the 11.2 × 72 Schuler revival project .
    My Next Gun Purchase will be a Nice BRNO ZKK-602 in .375 HH Magnum which should be far more Accurate than my Winchester Model 70 ( with it's mediocre 3 inch groups )
    And ordering a 10 gauge WW Greener Side by Side sky buster .
    I hope to accomplish this by 2021 . So let's see :)
     

  4. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    Any field feedback on this caliber? I am still pondering one for leopard and lion and buffalo.

    Recoil and recovery time? Less or more than a 416 Rigby? I know what the bullet will do.
     
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  5. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    It is not much of a help. But Hoss Delgado often sends me books or magazine articles to read. One of them was written by a gentleman named Don Heath , who used to be a professional hunter. He mentioned that he owned two rifles :
    A 9.3 millimeter mauser for general work
    and
    A .500/416 bore double barrel rifle made by an European firm called Krieghoff for shooting elephants and cape buffaloes.
    He seemed to be very fond of the double barrel rifle.
    I wonder if you will switch from your standard bolt operation .500 “ Jeff”
    to the double barrel rifle in the foreseeable future.
     

  6. MMAL

    MMAL GOLD SUPPORTER AH Enthusiast

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    I have a 500/416 kreighoff. I love the gun, the recoil is fine for my 14 year son and 16 year old daughter, it has killed buffalo and next year is going for elephant, hippo and more buffalo. With that said the ONLY reason the cartridge exists is for a double rifle. The cartridge is meant to copy a .416 rigby but in a rimmed case for double rifles. They took a .500ne case and necked it down. As such whenever you think of it or compare it, think as a .416 rigby. As such it is a step up from .375 h&h and a step down from a .470 ne.
     
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  7. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    Thank you.

    I was not aware that he ever owned or used a 500/416 NE or a double rifle.

    I know he used extensively, .22, 308W, 9.3x62mm and 404 Jeff for the big stuff.

    Nope the 500 Jeff will never go anywhere. The double is what I want for leopard but more for lion. They give very little time for reloading during follow up. The higher speed from a double rifle may just be the cats wiskers. The two contenders are 375 H&H Flanged Magnum and the 500/416 NE
     
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  8. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Hoss is in China now , and l will try to send him an email asking if he can send the article to me .
    And yes , following the great cats into dense vegetation necessitates a double barrel rifle . My preference is for a .375 Holland and Holland magnum double barrel rifle with 26 inch long barrels , two triggers and no automatic safety mechanism , preferably calibrated for the Winchester silver tip cartridge ( 300 grain weight) . Any modern equivalent of this cartridge would do nicely. But to be fair , l have no experience with the .500/416 bore so l cannot comment on it .
    Anyway , when l get the article , l will put the picture here.
     

  9. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Here it is . Screenshot_20191121-184549.png
    Image kindly provided by Hoss Delgado
     

  10. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    Interesting thanks for sharing
     
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