.475 No 2 Nitro Express

[Gert Odendaal]

Members , how available is this caliber in the USA ? The .475 No 2 Nitro Express seems to be a double rifle not frequently used by Dangerous Game Animal hunts in Africa .Is this still a caliber manufactured by the primary double rifle companies ?
My interest in this caliber comes from previously being a member on a forum where the strong Simson side by side shot gun actions was used by members on the forum who build their own double rifles..

Another action popular and used by the members to build their own double rifles was the CZ 12ga Special Poldi action that have the different components like the Greener Cross bolt and rising Bite as well as the extra metal around the sides of these actions..

I suppose the company manufactured .475 No 2 Nitro Express is still available on gun auctions in the USA?

Another person approached me to see if it would be possible to get hold of a .475 No2 Nitro Express here in South Africa . I would really appreciate it if any member knows about such a double rifle that is available in South Africa .

 

[rookhawk]

The dies are very scarce, made only by CH4D. The brass comes from one place, Bertram Brass in Australia. I do not know where you would come up with the bullets, I believe only Woodleigh makes them and I haven’t seen them anywhere in a long time.

As you know, it’s a 450#2 necked up to 475. The 450#2 is not easy to get components for, but at least the brass is available and the bullets are the common 450NE 480gr variety. I think going to the 475#2 amplifies supply chain difficulty.

And of course they are massive cases, far bigger than a 470NE or 500NE. It would be very difficult to build on a shotgun action, but anything is possible.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

The dies are very scarce, made only by CH4D. The brass comes from one place, Bertram Brass in Australia. I do not know where you would come up with the bullets, I believe only Woodleigh makes them and I haven’t seen them anywhere in a long time.

As you know, it’s a 450#2 necked up to 475. The 450#2 is not easy to get components for, but at least the brass is available and the bullets are the common 450NE 480gr variety. I think going to the 475#2 amplifies supply chain difficulty.

And of course they are massive cases, far bigger than a 470NE or 500NE. It would be very difficult to build on a shotgun action, but anything is possible.

Thank you kindly Rookhawk, your reply is much appreciated.

 

[MexicoMike]

Related - I got on the Bertram brass site a few days ago while considering calibers such as those mentioned and it appears they are getting out of the brass cartridge business...https://bertrambrass.com/

I saw several English doubles on various gun sites that looked very worthwhile considering in both of those calibers but they are a non-starter for me with no brass (or dies) readily available.

 

[rookhawk]

Related - I got on the Bertram brass site a few days ago while considering calibers such as those mentioned and it appears they are getting out of the brass cartridge business...https://bertrambrass.com/

I saw several English doubles on various gun sites that looked very worthwhile considering in both of those calibers but they are a non-starter for me with no brass (or dies) readily available.

Bertrambrass.com was a US importer. Bertram Brass of Australia still exists and makes brass.

 

[MexicoMike]

Thanks! I searched "Bertram brass Australia" and the Bertrambrass.com came up. I didn't realize it wasn't "speaking" for the company! Wish they also produced dies!!!

 

[PCC600]

Bertrambrass.com was a US importer. Bertram Brass of Australia still exists and makes brass.

They certainly do .

 

[rookhawk]

Thanks! I searched "Bertram brass Australia" and the Bertrambrass.com came up. I didn't realize it wasn't "speaking" for the company! Wish they also produced dies!!!

CH4D in Ohio makes dies for really big rifles and for vintage, obscure calibers. (pricey dies I might add!)

For "standard" stuff like 416 Rigby, 375HH, and 470NE, everybody makes dies, has them in stock, and they are less than $125.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Members , how available is this caliber in the USA ? The .475 No 2 Nitro Express seems to be a double rifle not frequently used by Dangerous Game Animal hunts in Africa .Is this still a caliber manufactured by the primary double rifle companies ?
My interest in this caliber comes from previously being a member on a forum where the strong Simson side by side shot gun actions was used by members on the forum who build their own double rifles..

Another action popular and used by the members to build their own double rifles was the CZ 12ga Special Poldi action that have the different components like the Greener Cross bolt and rising Bite as well as the extra metal around the sides of these actions..

I suppose the company manufactured .475 No 2 Nitro Express is still available on gun auctions in the USA?

Another person approached me to see if it would be possible to get hold of a .475 No2 Nitro Express here in South Africa . I would really appreciate it if any member knows about such a double rifle that is available in South Africa .

Bullets have only been manufactured by Woodleigh in recent years. Brass cases may be sourced from Bertram.

Westley Richards will make you a .475 No. 2 Nitro Express but Holland & Holland will not.

I don’t believe any of the Continental makers will.

 

[rookhawk]

I don’t believe any of the Continental makers will.

The question to ask is: "why not?".

The answer is that most makers today are using a monobloc design for their barrels and they sized them to handle 3" and *maybe* 3-1/4" cartridges.

The 450#2 and 475#2 have 3.5" long brass and COAL of way over 4". For most double rifles, there isn't enough monobloc to handle the chamber reaming of such a long cartridge.

Those two calibers should be relegated to original, vintage rifles where they were the primary design consideration of the overall rifle, not an afterthought that will create a domino effect of problems.

 

[318AE]

I can’t imagine having a double rifle myself, especially a vintage one, without being an avid reloader. Dies are a one time endeavor, brass lasts a long time in these calibers, but bullets are really the tipping point.

Woodleigh changed the market for these guns. There are a few custom bullet makers like Hawk, or one can swage bullets themselves, which is an investment beyond just reloading.

I wouldn’t venture into a double rifle if sourcing the components, reloading etc wasn’t all part of what I was wanting to do.

 

[rookhawk]

I can’t imagine having a double rifle myself, especially a vintage one, without being an avid reloader. Dies are a one time endeavor, brass lasts a long time in these calibers, but bullets are really the tipping point.

Woodleigh changed the market for these guns. There are a few custom bullet makers like Hawk, or one can swage bullets themselves, which is an investment beyond just reloading.

I wouldn’t venture into a double rifle if sourcing the components, reloading etc wasn’t all part of what I was wanting to do.

Amen @318AE . And to to push your point even further, on the vintage rifles they really want the original Kynoch Solids that were cup-and-core, lead core, FMJ designs. There is only one perfect replica for that on the planet, Woodleigh. Woodleigh has been out of production on many of these obscure FMJ products for many years and as they rebuild, they are not prioritizing their return.

The only alternative I'm aware of for a "traditional solid" that approximates the original bullet geometry is the Hornady DGS, although its ogive is different which creates more bore riding than the original Kynoch.

Can a master reloader of double rifles make other things work? Maybe. For softs, are there many ways to skin the cat including swaging up/down bullet diameters to get them to fit an obscure double? Sure. Softs aren't the issue, its solids that honor the original designs which tend to regulate better in original rifles.

Obviously, 375, 470, and 500 are the most common and of least concern, but 465, 475, 350, 360, and other traditional British bullet diameters have a real problem sourcing solids.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Amen @318AE . And to to push your point even further, on the vintage rifles they really want the original Kynoch Solids that were cup-and-core, lead core, FMJ designs. There is only one perfect replica for that on the planet, Woodleigh. Woodleigh has been out of production on many of these obscure FMJ products for many years and as they rebuild, they are not prioritizing their return.

The only alternative I'm aware of for a "traditional solid" that approximates the original bullet geometry is the Hornady DGS, although its ogive is different which creates more bore riding than the original Kynoch.

Can a master reloader of double rifles make other things work? Maybe. For softs, are there many ways to skin the cat including swaging up/down bullet diameters to get them to fit an obscure double? Sure. Softs aren't the issue, its solids that honor the original designs which tend to regulate better in original rifles.

Obviously, 375, 470, and 500 are the most common and of least concern, but 465, 475, 350, 360, and other traditional British bullet diameters have a real problem sourcing solids.

@rookhawk

There’s one more-
Wim Degol in Belgium. He makes traditional tombac jacketed bullets for a lot of the vintage calibers (but unfortunately not .475 Nitro Express). These are built to emulate the profile of the original Kynoch bullets prior to 1950.

But few American sportsmen have access to them.

 

[grand veneur]

One have to ask Vim Degol directly if he is willing to do it. He made to order for some of us in a very short time SP and FMJ bullets for the cartridge 11,2x72 Schüler, a cartridge that is also very rare nowadays.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

One have to ask Vim Degol directly if he is willing to do it. He made to order for some of us in a very short time SP and FMJ bullets for the cartridge 11,2x72 Schüler, a cartridge that is also very rare nowadays.

Hands down the best lead cored big Bore bullets I've ever seen !

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Related - I got on the Bertram brass site a few days ago while considering calibers such as those mentioned and it appears they are getting out of the brass cartridge business...https://bertrambrass.com/

I saw several English doubles on various gun sites that looked very worthwhile considering in both of those calibers but they are a non-starter for me with no brass (or dies) readily available.

Unfortunately this is the main issue of these scarce brass cases and reloading components for a double rifle in a scarce caliber. What really is strange is that companies like Hornady, Winchester has not up to date being using the CNC technology to turn out these scarce caliber brass cases?????

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Unfortunately this is the main issue of these scarce brass cases and reloading components for a double rifle in a scarce caliber. What really is strange is that companies like Hornady, Winchester has not up to date being using the CNC technology to turn out these scarce caliber brass cases?????

Why is it strange that big companies like Hornady and Winchester are not making these scare calibers?

It’s REALLY simple, there’s an extremely limited/small demand which equates to no ROI. Any time they swap calibers, their machine is down, if their machine is down it means they’re not making anything, which means they don’t have anything to sell BUT they’re still paying the employees to make the swap.

 

[grand veneur]

Why is it strange that big companies like Hornady and Winchester are not making these scare calibers?

It’s REALLY simple, there’s an extremely limited/small demand which equates to no ROI. Any time they swap calibers, their machine is down, if their machine is down it means they’re not making anything, which means they don’t have anything to sell BUT they’re still paying the employees to make the swap.

That's right, and that explains why Horneber had such long waiting times back then when you ordered cases of a rare caliber but that was listed in his catalog. By the way, I was therefore surprised that Wim Degol was able to make so quickly bullets for the rare 11,2x72 Schüler cartridge.

 

[Northview902]

In South Africa, a .475 No. 2 NE falls under the "Dangerous Weapon" category for licensing. The process to license such a firearm for a civilian is exceptionally difficult and typically requires proof of a specific, imminent need (e.g., a booked professional hunting safari for dangerous game that specifically requires that caliber). It is not a caliber one can license for occasional use or as part of a general collection.