450/400 Questions

Russ16

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I have a couple clarification questions on the 450/400.

My understanding is that there were 2 3/8 inch, 3 inch and 3 1/4 inch versions. With the latter two being the most common and the 3 inch version sometimes being called the 400 express.

Which version is used when chambering modern guns like a chapuis, Heym, etc.?

Is one of them easier to find brass for? I’ve seen brass for sale listed as 450/400 with no case length.

Can brass for one be formed from the other?

I’ve also read that bore diameters varied in the early years from .405 to .411. But that this was standardized in the 3 inch version. I assume measuring the bore is important either way, but is it less of a worry on a gun marked 3 inch or 400 express?

When looking at a vintage gun inside of them considered more desirable?

Thanks for any info you can all share.
 
450/400 3 inch is what currently being offered.. The other 2 are obsolete..

All vintage guns of this caliber must barrel slugged to determine caliber...especially those older than 1913-1914..
 
I have a couple clarification questions on the 450/400.

My understanding is that there were 2 3/8 inch, 3 inch and 3 1/4 inch versions. With the latter two being the most common and the 3 inch version sometimes being called the 400 express.

Which version is used when chambering modern guns like a chapuis, Heym, etc.?

Is one of them easier to find brass for? I’ve seen brass for sale listed as 450/400 with no case length.

Can brass for one be formed from the other?

I’ve also read that bore diameters varied in the early years from .405 to .411. But that this was standardized in the 3 inch version. I assume measuring the bore is important either way, but is it less of a worry on a gun marked 3 inch or 400 express?

When looking at a vintage gun inside of them considered more desirable?

Thanks for any info you can all share.
Without question the 3 inch which is what my Chapuis is. No problems finding ammo for it or reloading as I do
 
The 3” is also sometimes called the 400 Jeffery. It’s not just a shorter version of the 3 1/4, it has a thicker rim and case, and I think is a little easier to reload. Brass is a little easier to find, as Hornady makes it. I’ve never seen a modern double chambered for 3 1/4.

The 3” were mostly proofed for a 55gr tropical load, but some show 60gr proofs. In my experience, they regulate the same either way. The 3 1/4 is almost always proofed 60gr.

For a vintage gun it doesn’t really matter that much. The brass and dies are different, but once you have that settled, it is largely the same.
 
So is brass equally available for the 3 and 3 1/4 inch versions? My brief search turned ups some listed as 3 inch and some with no length designation which I assume is 3 inch as well.
 
I'm just starting out at this but I've found 470 nitro and 450/400 3" (400 Jeffrey) brass and dies readily available. Other calibers? Not really that I can find. So I've restricted my double rifle search to 470 NE or MAYBE a 450/400 if a nice British one shows up that I can afford.
 
Modern brass for the 450/400 is 3”.
Hornady with think Norma had produced some, Hornady is currently available.
You cannot form brass from one to the other, rim thickness and base geometry is different. The 450/400 3 inch (aka .400 Jeffery is a a thicker rim and case.
I have not seen brass for the 3 1/4” for a long time, though Bertram has produced some in the past.

Dies are readily available for the 3” version. Custom ordered dies only for the 3 1/4inch.

That being said if I could get an English 400/450 3 1/4” Nitro from a proper gun and rifle maker, I would sell a kidney and have components and tooling custom made.
 
So is brass equally available for the 3 and 3 1/4 inch versions? My brief search turned ups some listed as 3 inch and some with no length designation which I assume is 3 inch as well.
3 yes 3 1/4 no
 
And you can expect when reading in forums here and modern articles, if folks reference the 450/400, they are talking about out the the 3” version. If it’s something other than 3”, for brass, modern rifles, dies, and certainly modern rifles, it is the 3”.

You’ll find an almost cult-like following for the 450/400 3”. Talking to Chris Sells/Heym USA back in the spring when I was starting my search for a pre-owned Heym 88b and trying to decide if I wanted to order an 89b, he said it was likely the most popular chambering in recent years.

With its low recoil relative to the 450/470/500 nitros, they can make it in a lighter weight rifle with superb accuracy that is just as comfortable to carry as it is to shoot. I have a bit of a fascination with big bores, so was less interested and love my Rigby so much that I figured if tossing a 400gr bullet, I’d likely prefer to use it.

While waiting for my 470 to arrive fr JJ P., since Heym USA sent it to him for a strip and clean, adjustment and shoot fo regulation, I stumbled into a Heym 450/400 local to me at a price I couldn’t pass up. It was a splendid rifle, very accurate, super easy to shoot recoil wise (it was a safari or medium frame so weight around 10.5lbs). It felt a little too dainty to me and really knew I wanted something bigger…so I thought.

The problem with me and big bores, I like to shoot them too much. It gets hard on your body after time. I have hand and thumb issues today that I really think is at least in part from shoot 475 and 500 Linebaugh and Long/Max versions with full-house H110 loads too much and too often. John Linebaugh and Hamilton Bowen made me well over a dozen big bores between them, and I’d shoot a few times a week including steel at 100 yards…and each night I’d have hand tremors to show for it. Now I haven’t shot one in almost 7 years, and have half dozen nice, vintage and custom acoustic guitars I haven’t played in just as long…including a Brazilian D-28 the Martin custom shop made as a 1937 Bone me off my 1964, that arrived in 2018 and I haven’t played once.

Long story short, with my 470 I shot it quite a bit when it arrived, I as comfortable within reason to shoot, but not what I could go and shoot 50-80 rounds through in a session, several times a week. Shooting it more than I should during load development and running rounds through my Rigby 416 and Breeding 505, I ended up having some kind of hematoma or something in my shoulder/upper arm that I then smashed the next day and made a nasty looking bruise down my bicep, like I’d torn something. Didn’t hurt, but looked horrid. Even had a lady at the blood bank when I went in to donate get all concerned. When I told her it was from just shooting a few larger bore rifles a bit too much, she looked at me suspiciously and asked if I felt safe at home. She was joking, but it was a legit bruise, over a week old at that point and looked way better than 4-6 days earlier…and I don’t normally bruise.
IMG_7046.jpeg


Moral of the story..,I think there is a lot to be said for the 450/400, and honestly the smaller flanged chamberings too. These doubles are just too darn fun and expensive not to shoot and enjoy them. I have found the 450NE in my 89b Gross Box at 11.4lbs is perfect medium, but still not something I should shoot dozens of rounds through several days a week. I parted with my 450/400 to help pay for the 450NE, and can see another one or even 375 FL in my future at some point. That said, I also had an itch for a 500 so have to scratch that first, hope it doesn’t turn into compulsive desire for 577 or 600NE…so I can return to a more healthy and long-term fun cartridge to shoot.
 
Now, for you gents with way way way more experience and sense than me, please explain if there is any meaningful benefit to the 450/400 3 1/4” over the 3”? I fully appreciate additional case capacity in modern magnum cartridges, especially when really trying to squeeze out every fps, even searing bullets out a bit when the rifle is throated for it.

On these traditional cartridges dating back to cordite, and the powders that we seem to lean towards, case capacity seems largely moot since we have to use wadding most often anyway. When having to use a foam or Dacron wadding already in the 3” version, what is the allure of the 3 1/4”….or is it more about the doubles that were chambered in that cartridge?
 
You’ve got it - it’s a 1/4” more Dacron at this point. I had four vintage 450/400s; 3 3” and 1 3 1/4” (a Westley Richards). I moved the Westley Richards on, as keeping more brass and dies seemed like a hassle etc.

They both fired 60 gr of cordite in the standard, non-tropical loads, and regulated at nearly the same velocity. You can’t “use” that extra case capacity without ruining how they are regulated and sighted.

The 450 no2 and 475 no2 is another 1/4” more Dacron…

There are some really cool old double rifles chambered for 450/400 3 1/4. I think any of these old guns is a “fine madness”, a labor of love, and one should be prepared to invest time in its care and feeding.
 
Some of these “best avoided” 450/400 3 1/4s…

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