450/400 3” Velocity…is it enough?

[Desperatezulu]

Ah ok, I missed that you'd tried a variety of bullets.
I suppose another option is to have the rifle re-regulated for a preferred load? But that costs money and requires a skilled smith

 

[zephyr]

Copy from Wright's new book ....
Can you tell us about the Double

 

[AZDAVE]

Is your double a new or vintage?
If it is vintage I would slug the barrels to see exactly what diameter bullet you would most likely get the best results with.

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

Verney Carron built in 2011. Looks like it was never shot except for regulation. Regulated with Hornady DGX. Shooting it without the aid of the scope. I don’t think it was regulated with the scope on.

 

[318AE]

We consider and contemplate a lot about cartridges and ballistics here at AH. One last thing to consider-

How much velocity does that 450/400 shed in 50 to 100 yards? You have a 1,950 at the muzzle now, versus 2,050 or perhaps 2,100. Is that not basically the same bullet 50 yards further out? Would you not take that shot, if you were sure of your aim and placement?

This comes up a lot in my mind on these conversations about cartridges; a 30/06 vs 300 win mag or similar comparison. It’s really just the same thing at another 50 to 100 yards. Just shoot the load that regulates the best, optimizing shot placement. A 400 gr 41 caliber bullet is no joke in the right spot.

 

[zephyr]

318AE
Here is data that has been generated on the JBM Website using Hornady's .410 400gr DGs at 1950fps
https://www.jbmballistics.com/

This is from the Woodleigh Bullet Catalogue notice the recommended velocity range

Data from the JBM Site with the Hornady 400gr DGS at 2100fps

 

[Philip Glass]

2050fps is what most loads are running. I wouldn't want to be under that myself. I am sure there are a lot of variables when you are hand loading. I am using and have had the rifle regulated with 400g TSX in my .450/400.

 

[318AE]

318AE
Here is data that has been generated on the JBM Website using Hornady's .410 400gr DGs at 1950fps
https://www.jbmballistics.com/

View attachment 713299

This is from the Woodleigh Bullet Catalogue notice the recommended velocity range

View attachment 713300
Data from the JBM Site with the Hornady 400gr DGS at 2100fps

View attachment 713301

This looks about right. I can’t tell if you posted this to further support my point or something else. Most of us are lucky to spend about 10 days a year in the bush in Africa hunting, and perhaps a few weekends hunting elsewhere. That leaves almost 355 days a year to wring our hands and ruminate over thousandths of an inch in bore diameter, a few fps here and there and ballistic coefficients, when we know shot placement, good bullet construction and good sectional density are a century proven recipe for success. Keep the sun at your back, the wind at your face, aim small and go hunt!

 

[David jr]

318 AE
1950 is correct for 24 inch barrels
all data shown is for 26 inch barrels so your 1950 fps is in the right velocity range for a 24 inch barrels , you will ruffly decrease 50 fps for each inch you cut off barrels .

 

[zephyr]

The bore riding bullets like CEB seem to run a little faster then convetional bullets and the petals will shear at a lower velocity
CEB raptors and Solids are what I run in my 1902 Gibbs 450NE

 

[Bonk]

If the velocity/mass in properly regulated .40 caliber double rifles are a concern why not just get a .40 caliber bolt action rifle instead? Despite all the conversations lately about the validity of 375H&H even that puny cartridge will deliver more velocity and energy than a slow double rifle. I get it. Nostalgia, fast follow up shot, etc. but why not concentrate on putting the animal down with a more effective first shot?

Based on this forum double rifles are allegedly the be all end all for DG. Maybe not in smaller double rifle calibers.

In reality I’m of the opinion that a properly constructed modern 400gr bullet moving at 2000fps (+/- 100fps) is more than the equivalent of the ammo used to hunt Africa 100 years ago and back then they didn’t seem to have any difficulty being successful. I’m mostly just busting chops regarding double rifles versus magazines rifles..

 

[Ivorygrip]

To add my $0.02, I would try some Northfork or CEB mono bullets. You will be pleased
Regards

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

To add my $0.02, I would try some Northfork or CEB mono bullets. You will be pleased
Regards

I think you might be right…that is going to be my next step

 

[Mountaineer]

Considering the cost of ammo and most of our quest for the perfect load, would it make more since to develop a load that achieves what you want and have the rifle deregulated?

 

[Frederik Badenhorst]

The problem is I am living in BC,Canada. It would mean shipping the gun to the States( Probably JJ), I have been lead to believe this endeavour would be a bit of a nightmare .

This is the primary reason I am trying everything in my power to get it regulated via changing components first.

I think Longwalker might have shipped a gun across the border to JJ before. I will send him a msg and find out what it all entails.

 

[steve white]

There was a lot of "blue sky" in published loads back when the 450/400 was brought out. It is possible that the stellar reputations of double rifle loadings were achieved with velocity levels that were below what we thought. That said, I would try to get it up to at least 2000. Surely another powder/load/bullet weight combination left to try. Keep experimenting, and I hope you are lucky!

Better to have great shot placement than 150fps more....

 

[UpNorthMI]

I had a good experience with Hornady DGX Bonded bullets in .416 with a 400 grain bullet weight, shooting them in my .500/.416 NE double rifle with muzzle velocity of 2,325 fps, quite a bit faster than what you are loading. Mine expanded very well and hit hard on Australia water buffalo (16 animals or more were shot over 5 days with these DGX bonded bullets and another 16 with Barnes TSX in .375 H&H) as well as 10 very large camels. My son and I shot over 30 rounds of the DGX Bonded 400 grain bullets on game and we recovered 4 bullets from diagonal type shots. The DGX Bonded bullets are at the bottom of this photo below.

In the center are four .375, 300 grain Barnes TSX bullets that were shooting at about 2,450 fps MV, factory loads, the first 3 bullets from left to right were shot at relatively short ranges on buffalo, the bullet on the right hand side was pulled from under the skin on the far side of a Cape buffalo cow in South Africa, the bullet has comparatively much smaller expansion when compared to the 3 other bullets as it was shot at a range of approximately 225 yards for a perfect sideward chest shot, obviously the loss of velocity over this distance limited both the expansion and penetration of this Barnes .375 TSX 300 grain bullet. In general .375, 300 grain TSX bullets always exit on buffalo for me with side on shots.

As you have found a well regulated load, I would suggest sticking with your Hornady DGX Bonded bullets as you at least know they will expand some, if you wanted a "better" bullet, good luck finding something like Swift A frames or some of the other types recommended by other members to your post. Personally I would avoid the Barnes TSX at the velocity you are achieving, as in my experience with other calibers, bullet expansion has not been great when muzzle velocities drop for long distance shots, but I have no experience shooting TSX in your caliber, maybe the bullet is constructed differently for your caliber and weight.

Good luck with your hunt, a lot of buffalo have been shot with older type bullets at the velocity you are achieving. If you can put it in the right place just about any modern well constructed bullet will do the job.

 

[Troubleshooter]

The problem is the regulation velocity is only 1950 fps out of 24” barrels.

F

Yes. This represents the likely REAL velocity of the old tropical loads back in the day.

I find most commercial ammo in today’s world to be somewhat optimistic in terms of claimed velocity and expect it has always been thus.

There was a lot of "blue sky" in published loads back when the 450/400 was brought out. It is possible that the stellar reputations of double rifle loadings were achieved with velocity levels that were below what we thought.

According to Wright's 4th Edition (Page 156) the velocity numbers for the 450/400 3" NE were taken from a 30" barrel. That could well account for the discrepancy in velocity (not to mention the quantum improvement in chronograph technology over the past 120 years).

Note that this was for the original load of 60gr Cordite. The barrel length for the more commonly-encountered "Tropical Load" in unknown, although I would not be surprised to find out that it was taken from the same test barrels and same test gun.

 

[Nhoro]

In the thread Regulation: Bullet Weight vs Velocity, they discuss this topic. One member had success with a lighter bullet at a higher velocity. Maybe give that thread a read. It seems it can be done.

My feeling is that combination of velocity and bullet are going to work well together. Lead bullets are better expanders at low velocity. Personally I wouldnt try brass or copper expanding bullets because they need some extra velocity. Even if you were able to regulate a lighter bullet, I doubt it would have enough velocity for a TSX- I would guess you might get 2150 or so (10% faster velocity). And I doubt that you will get more penetration than a heavier DGX.

The 450/400 is well known for being a low recoil rifle with enough muscle to get the job done. I wouldnt try to Weatherby it.