.375 should be banned from buffalo hunts!

[skydiver386]

When it comes to Dangerous Game Calibers..

 

[grand veneur]

That's true, you should not overdo it.

In this regard, I am surprised that the extremely large-caliber faction has not reported in yet. After all, there are some members on the Forum who want to play it absolutely safe and are looking for rifles caliber 585 Nyati, 577 Tyrannosaurus, or 600 Overkill, or want to have them built.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

Cris, more Cape Buffalo have been killed with a 375 H&H than any other cartridge in history. And many of those were killed very dead with bullets inferior to the choices we have today. There is nothing wrong with a 375, even though there are more effective cartridges that start with a 4.

While you may not be very impressed with a 375, I have a friend who has personally shot almost 400 buffalo and nearly all with a 375/404 wildcat and 300 Grain Monometal bullets. He thinks a 375 is an excellent caliber for buffalo and I won’t disagree with him.

The irony of all this is that I agree with you 100%. The 375 kills buffalo, it's been doing it for over 100 years, and I've killed over a hundred of them with my Sauer 202 in 375 HH, huge animals and at every distance you can imagine! My point is: the 416 kills better, is more efficient and safer. And here I am being crucified for saying that!

 

[Red Leg]

The irony of all this is that I agree with you 100%. The 375 kills buffalo, it's been doing it for over 100 years, and I've killed over a hundred of them with my Sauer 202 in 375 HH, huge animals and at every distance you can imagine! My point is: the 416 kills better, is more efficient and safer. And here I am being crucified for saying that!

No. You raised objections and well deserved ridicule for wanting to ban the .375 for buffalo. I would again suggest you reread your first post in whichever language you prefer.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

Even if you are not from an English-speaking country, you understand what the topic meant. Some members should not have gotten unnecessarily upset and even rude. What is striking, however, is that the small-caliber faction always answers very vehemently in such discussions. The large-caliber faction seems to be more tolerant when it comes to which cartridge is best suited for buffalo hunting. There must be a reason for this.

There should be a faction of the coherent, the logical, the middle faction with which I identify, for me as a hunter it is not 375 or 500 Jeffery, I am in the middle with 416... as a guide the conversation is different, then we necessarily have to thicken the barrel and enter the world of doubles.

 

[steve white]

It occurs to me that by providing the 416 as minimum for buffalo, one is also banning the 404 Jeffrey, 450/400 and anything else that is technically below 416. Has anything been defined as to foot pounds, etc in that regard? Maybe, if things are to be changed (which is not happening BTW) we should just go on Taylors' KO scale.

Of course it's always possible that a person has, "Quit preaching and gone to meddling!"

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

.................................... I knew you were going to step in it up to you eyeballs with that statement, here in the land of 375 RAT Caliber Worship! HEH HEH...........

Many of you know my opinion of 375 caliber anything...... Those that do not, I DESPISE 375 caliber, I loath it, I would not even use one for Rats...... I would not allow one in my Lab or on my range! I hate to admit however, and it pains me to do so, 375 caliber seems to be the choice for those Sissy Boys that cannot learn to shoot larger calibers, and desire to chase buffalo, and possibly a good choice for the Ladies out there that wish to hunt buffalo. Also a good choice for PH's to always recommend, that realize the common client hunter is not a shooter, and maybe less chance of missing the shot completely, and even then the PH most likely will have a suitable buffalo caliber to clean the mess up. So yes, I have to concede there may be instances where the 375 could be useful!

This has been the most entertaining 375 bashing thread I think I have ever seen........ HEH HEH.....

Boys and Girls, when it comes to Buffalo, they simply just do not respect Rat Calibers. I am sorry to tell you, you cannot even get their attention with the best of bullet tech. As our guy has repeated many times, not saying you can't kill one, saying that buffalo don't pay much attention to Rat calibers taking the hit. One year I was in Africa testing out the 9.3 B&M. It was a hammer on most all plains game, so good in fact that I thought maybe with the best of bullet tech it might do ok on buffalo? I took it to do some shooting with Paul Truccolo in Australia to see. After about 8-10 buffalo shot with 9.3, and the very best of CEB Raptors & North Forks, and shooting buffalo multiple times to get their attention, I put it aside and went to work with the 475 B&M, which was in test mode at the time as well. Things started working better of course. Buffalo started paying attention to the shots and hitting the dirt much faster. Multiple shots were not required to get their attention................. CALIBER MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE when it comes to buffalo, I don't care what the 375 Experts tell you! Now the example above does not make me a .474 caliber fan either, I don't see it being one bit better on buffalo than .458 caliber..............on this particular test run I had both my sons shooting other .474 caliber and .500 caliber cartridges, my best friend was shooting and testing new bullets in 500 NE as well. Together on this trip we shot well over 50+ buffalo, testing cartridges, rifles and of course more than anything else bullets.

There is a jump in buffalo reactions from Rat Calibers to .416. Another jump in animal reactions, about the same degree from .416 to .458. I did not see another jump in reactions until reaching .500/.510 caliber. In each step up, buffalo were down quicker, and more decisive, assuming one uses proper designed bullets at every step. If you don't use a proper bullet, then not even the biggest calibers will do what is required.

If you can shoot a 375 anything, you won't have a major problem with a proper setup 416, using proper serious bullet tech. You will be better off with this when it comes to buffalo. And I don't see the 416 as a fantastic buffalo caliber, it is better than lesser Rat calibers.

Where does the Magic Start?

458..............................................

God exists, finally an ENLIGHTENED ONE!

 

[cajunchefray]

Hunting for this species hasn't been banned yet, and they number in the thousands. They devour everything: marriages, assets, farms, shares... Almost all of them are named after hurricanes: Katrina, Wilma, Irma, and Maria, because when they arrive in your life, they cause a gale, and when they leave, they take everything you have!We shoot this species here with shorter weapons...the main hunting season is during Carnival!

Considering the respected very experienced hunters here, the .375 is entirely useful in the hands of a practiced hunter.
I practice with the 375 H&H and the 458 Win Mag loaded to 404 Jeffery levels.
Read @Red Leg threads, and many others, there is much to learn.

This informative thread has led to questions:
Why is the Buffalo hunting in Brasilia during Carnival? Breeding period?

In New Orleans Carnival, we hunt parades and beer.

Naming the Buffalo sub species after hurricanes is unique.

Given that today is the 20th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, the hurricane that devastated New Orleans, killed 1500+ people, destroyed over 80,000 properties, required tens of billions of USD to put it back together, and crushed the lives of tens of thousands of people and businesses, Buffalo naming after a hurricane is a unique endeavor.

Can you post some articles from the Brazilian government ministries, or universities that document the vast presence and destruction caused by buffalo in the North of Brasilia?

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

A logical question might be this: "Are your huge South American Water Buffalo, larger or tougher than the typical African Cape Buffalo Bull?" They may well be, but I do not know. To a small degree, I am inclined to agree with you either way. When I began hunting in Africa, I wanted a 416 Rigby for DG hunting but struggled to locate one that had the attributes that I require. Thus, I ended up with a Belgian Browning Safari Grade in 375HH. Later, I acquired a better rifle, a custom ER Shaw P14 Enfield which is also in 375HH.

I have a friend who bought a 460 Weatherby and shot it once and immediately sold the rifle. Said it was brutal. He hunted his Buffalo last year with a 375HH and using some TSX ammo killed it with two shots and it ran about 15y and piled up. Another friend shot one 7 times before it finally died after tearing the front end off of the PH's truck. Moral of that story is there are buffalo and there are buffalo. Yours may be different.

When I hunted my buff, we stalked into thick thorn bush that gave us only about 20y of vision. At that time, I was wishing I had chosen to carry an 88mm anti-tank weapon, lol. Seriously, a 458wm or larger would have been nice. But, the buffalo did not show up that day. Later, I killed a buffalo with four, quick mostly well placed shots. It ran about 30ish yards and died. The first shot killed it but as is often the case, it was still mobile and so the 2nd shot was ineffective and hit the liver doing marginal damage. The 3rd shot with it facing us was too high and hit the back muscles adjacent to the spine. I attempted to hit the spine but pulled the shot left of my tgt. The last shot that dropped it was only 3" from the first and both of these were in the heart/lung kill zone. The Barnes TSX 300g mono was getting 2585fps in my rifle and did the job.

I can handle a 458wm just fine and if I am to hunt buffalo again, I think I would choose the larger rifle. Would it do a faster job? I cannot say.

I have used the 375HH now to take four animals ranging from deer to Kudu, to Blue Wildebeest to the Cape Buffalo and honestly, I was not all that impressed with it on any of them. I shoot it pretty well and most of my shots were well placed but the big, slower, controlled expansion bullets just seem to be sluggish in their capacity to drop an animal quickly. Oh, they kill it well enough but always seems to take several seconds and multiple shots to do the job.

• Whitetail Buck - 70y broadside, 250g Fed Trophy Bonded bearclaw - One shot DRT.
• Kudu - 50y broadside, 300g Swift A-Frame, two shots, had to track for over 200y to finish with a 2nd. 1st shot was a bit low in brisket due to an ammo malfunction.
• Blue Wildebeest - 180y frontal, 300g TSX, 1st shot wheeled and ran 60y and fell. 2nd shot to neck was pass thru and 3rd shot to chest from very close range finished it.
• Cape Buffalo - 120y broadside, 300g TSX. Took four shots to drop the beast. First shot was fatal but took about 30sec to take affect. Last shot was fatal and dropped him. A 5th insurance shot was just that and was not really needed but is always warranted.

If a 375HH with the 300g Barnes TSX expands to 2.0x or more (3/4" diam) and penetrates thru about 36" of buffalo as they will normally do, will a heavier (500g), slower 2100fps, 458wm that expands to about 1.6x at best (0.73") and penetrates to at least 36" or more do a better job?? I know that 458's can expand to more but only if fired at extremely close ranges. The 375 will expand to 2x or more out to 200y with ease. Buffalo are shot at closer ranges for a variety of reasons so, long range performance is not necessary. Keep in mind that the 458 bullet has slowed to about 1860fps at 100y and beyond that range it may not expand at all. If you shoot a buff at 50y with it, it should expand well. At longer ranges it may perform more like a solid. Again, is a 1/2" (50cal) hole from a solid more effective than a 3/4" (75cal) hole from a fully expanded 375? It is a valid question.

A 416 may be the wild card. It being faster than the heavies and fast enough to fully expand at even longer buffalo shooting range. But, is a 0.83" hole really that much more effective than a 0.75" hole? Plus, just for grins most of the recovered 375 bullets that I have were actually expanded to 2.2x. In other words they made a 0.825" hole. My rifle does get higher than average MV out of factory Barnes ammo, so perhaps it is an outlier? Pic below is of a pair of 300g 375HH Barnes TSX bullets expanded to 2.0x and 2.2x.

View attachment 710270

Yes, a water buffalo is proportionally larger than an African buffalo, weighing on average 1,000 kilograms, while the largest African buffalo I've seen in Mozambique's Zambezi Delta, raised in an endless sea of green grass year-round, barely reached 880 kilograms. Water buffaloes, like the carabao, for example, are more robust and muscular, as they are born and develop in water and mud. They have different muscle fibers (this is scientific), and they have incredible strength and endurance. I've hunted both species extensively and can confirm this with 100% certainty.African buffaloes are braver, more courageous, and attack easily, and the lion is to blame for this! Brazilian water buffaloes are less aggressive; jaguars can't prey on them, and we don't have tigers, so they feel confident and in control. Even so, they prefer flight to direct confrontation, until they take the first misplaced shot. Then the differences disappear, and they become fury machines and also ambush in tall grass like the Africans.Regarding bullets, the TSX, despite failing to open at tight angles, remains an excellent bullet for buffalo. The A-frame doesn't fail; it will always open and penetrate deeply. Another killer is the Australian Weldcore and the Northfork SS. I truly believe these are the best expanding cartridges you can use for the first shot on a buffalo.As a guide, I hunt an average of 500 antelopes per year, not including the big ones. I've been doing this professionally for nine years and have a collection of around 1,400 recovered and cataloged bullets from almost every African species, of all models, brands, and calibers used in Africa. I'm a scholar of this subject that fascinates me so much.

 

[steve white]

Considering the respected very experienced hunters here, the .375 is entirely useful in the hands of a practiced hunter.
I practice with the 375 H&H and the 458 Win Mag loaded to 404 Jeffery levels.
Read @Red Leg threads, and many others, there is much to learn.

This informative thread has led to questions:
Why is the Buffalo hunting in Brasilia during Carnival? Breeding period?

In New Orleans Carnival, we hunt parades and beer.

Naming the Buffalo sub species after hurricanes is unique.

Given that today is the 20th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, the hurricane that devastated New Orleans, killed 1500+ people, destroyed over 80,000 properties, required tens of billions of USD to put it back together, and crushed the lives of tens of thousands of people and businesses, Buffalo naming after a hurricane is a unique endeavor.

Can you post some articles from the Brazilian government ministries, or universities that document the vast presence and destruction caused by buffalo in the North of Brasilia?

Uh, I think he was referring to the Brazilian women...lol

 

[jeanes]

Perhaps if the post had started with something like: In my opinion, and based on my experience, I do not believe that the .375 H&H is an adequate caliber for buffalo - a calmer and more meaningful debate might have ensued.
I have no dog in this fight. Have never hunted buffalo and likely never will. I do, however, own a .375.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

Considering the respected very experienced hunters here, the .375 is entirely useful in the hands of a practiced hunter.
I practice with the 375 H&H and the 458 Win Mag loaded to 404 Jeffery levels.
Read @Red Leg threads, and many others, there is much to learn.

This informative thread has led to questions:
Why is the Buffalo hunting in Brasilia during Carnival? Breeding period?

In New Orleans Carnival, we hunt parades and beer.

Naming the Buffalo sub species after hurricanes is unique.

Given that today is the 20th anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, the hurricane that devastated New Orleans, killed 1500+ people, destroyed over 80,000 properties, required tens of billions of USD to put it back together, and crushed the lives of tens of thousands of people and businesses, Buffalo naming after a hurricane is a unique endeavor.

Can you post some articles from the Brazilian government ministries, or universities that document the vast presence and destruction caused by buffalo in the North of Brasilia?

The hurricane thing was just a joke. The lack of sense of humor is total. We weren't talking about buffalo, we were talking about Brazilian women, the best in the world! The language barrier really is a pain! No one understands ANYTHING!

We have many studies of Brazilian regions dominated by buffalo. To name just one, Google the Guaporé Biological Reserve, a one-million-hectare wilderness area on the border with Bolivia, overrun by buffalo since 1952. There are over 35,000 completely wild buffalo there. I flew over part of the area; the herds are almost infinite. And the government ecologists don't know how to solve it; they want to castrate the buffalo, hahahaha... surreal!

 

[steve white]

.................................... I knew you were going to step in it up to you eyeballs with that statement, here in the land of 375 RAT Caliber Worship! HEH HEH...........

Many of you know my opinion of 375 caliber anything...... Those that do not, I DESPISE 375 caliber, I loath it, I would not even use one for Rats...... I would not allow one in my Lab or on my range! I hate to admit however, and it pains me to do so, 375 caliber seems to be the choice for those Sissy Boys that cannot learn to shoot larger calibers, and desire to chase buffalo, and possibly a good choice for the Ladies out there that wish to hunt buffalo. Also a good choice for PH's to always recommend, that realize the common client hunter is not a shooter, and maybe less chance of missing the shot completely, and even then the PH most likely will have a suitable buffalo caliber to clean the mess up. So yes, I have to concede there may be instances where the 375 could be useful!

This has been the most entertaining 375 bashing thread I think I have ever seen........ HEH HEH.....

Boys and Girls, when it comes to Buffalo, they simply just do not respect Rat Calibers. I am sorry to tell you, you cannot even get their attention with the best of bullet tech. As our guy has repeated many times, not saying you can't kill one, saying that buffalo don't pay much attention to Rat calibers taking the hit. One year I was in Africa testing out the 9.3 B&M. It was a hammer on most all plains game, so good in fact that I thought maybe with the best of bullet tech it might do ok on buffalo? I took it to do some shooting with Paul Truccolo in Australia to see. After about 8-10 buffalo shot with 9.3, and the very best of CEB Raptors & North Forks, and shooting buffalo multiple times to get their attention, I put it aside and went to work with the 475 B&M, which was in test mode at the time as well. Things started working better of course. Buffalo started paying attention to the shots and hitting the dirt much faster. Multiple shots were not required to get their attention................. CALIBER MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE when it comes to buffalo, I don't care what the 375 Experts tell you! Now the example above does not make me a .474 caliber fan either, I don't see it being one bit better on buffalo than .458 caliber..............on this particular test run I had both my sons shooting other .474 caliber and .500 caliber cartridges, my best friend was shooting and testing new bullets in 500 NE as well. Together on this trip we shot well over 50+ buffalo, testing cartridges, rifles and of course more than anything else bullets.

There is a jump in buffalo reactions from Rat Calibers to .416. Another jump in animal reactions, about the same degree from .416 to .458. I did not see another jump in reactions until reaching .500/.510 caliber. In each step up, buffalo were down quicker, and more decisive, assuming one uses proper designed bullets at every step. If you don't use a proper bullet, then not even the biggest calibers will do what is required.

If you can shoot a 375 anything, you won't have a major problem with a proper setup 416, using proper serious bullet tech. You will be better off with this when it comes to buffalo. And I don't see the 416 as a fantastic buffalo caliber, it is better than lesser Rat calibers.

Where does the Magic Start?

458..............................................

Could you make up a proof mark stamp so we can hammer onto our rifles the word "rat" right after 375 H&H. I think it would be hilarious. Though I do in fact have a 375.

 

[RLD]

Even if you are not from an English-speaking country, you understand what the topic meant. Some members should not have gotten unnecessarily upset and even rude. What is striking, however, is that the small-caliber faction always answers very vehemently in such discussions. The large-caliber faction seems to be more tolerant when it comes to which cartridge is best suited for buffalo hunting. There must be a reason for this.

Oh...so the guy calling for a "ban" is the tolerant one. Interesting worldview.

The question is not which cartridge is "best suited" the topic is "should 375 be banned?"

In fact it wasn't even posed as a question, it was expressed in the imperative. As an order.

Some tolerance.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

Perhaps if the post had started with something like: In my opinion, and based on my experience, I do not believe that the .375 H&H is an adequate caliber for buffalo - a calmer and more meaningful debate might have ensued.
I have no dog in this fight. Have never hunted buffalo and likely never will. I do, however, own a .375.

I agree with you, but if it were like that, maybe we wouldn't have gotten past one or two answers. In the end, I came out like Judas, but I generated a constructive debate. I say this because I realized that you can't radicalize anything. There are people who simply CANNOT shoot anything bigger than a 375 and I need to RESPECT these limitations. Even though it's less effective than a 416, it still kills buffalo.

 

[Crishuntbrasil]

Oh...so the guy calling for a "ban" is the tolerant one. Interesting worldview.

The question is not which cartridge is "best suited" the topic is "should 375 be banned?"

In fact it wasn't even posed as a question, it was expressed in the imperative. As an order.

Some tolerance.

Basically what I wanted to say is that they should consider 416 as a minimum for buffaloes, not 375. However, I lacked the English to say that.

 

[grand veneur]

It occurs to me that by providing the 416 as minimum for buffalo, one is also banning the 404 Jeffrey, 450/400 and anything else that is technically below 416. Has anything been defined as to foot pounds, etc in that regard? Maybe, if things are to be changed (which is not happening BTW) we should just go on Taylors' KO scale.

Of course it's always possible that a person has, "Quit preaching and gone to meddling!"

That is a part of the problem, because the caliber alone is not enough. A good example is the cartridge 10,75x68. I have shot few buffalo with it, but I would not, despite the bigger caliber, call it a good buffalo cartridge. It is best to leave it as it is, with the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum as the legal minimum. The concept is proven effective for the way hunts are conducted, with a PH for backup, even if this PH may have to intervene sometime and perhaps more than is admitted.

 

[Brian]

Its funny, most of the PH's in Africa recommend a 375 for a client on DG.... You know, the guys that do this for a living....

PH's recommend the 375 to certain categories of buffalo hunters, especially beginners. They recommend the 375 for various reasons, including business reasons.

For example, just suppose that a PH/Outfitters in Africa told a potential cape buffalo hunting client that they needed a .416 or bigger to safely hunt cape buffalo.

What do you think that potential clients would do? ( Remember many first time cape buffalo hunters are convinced that the .375 is the biggest cartridge that they can handle.)

Would he book his hunt with that Outfitter and then get a .416 and learn to shoot it?
Or, would he go with an outfitter that told him that he would be just fine with a 375?

If you were that Outfitter struggling to pay your bills, what would tell a potential cape buffalo hunting client if he asked you that question, considering that the wrong answer could cost the Outfitter $5,000 net?

This is not an academic proposition. It is a practical issue that the DG hunting business deal with every day in Africa.

 

[cajunchefray]

The hurricane thing was just a joke. The lack of sense of humor is total. We weren't talking about buffalo, we were talking about Brazilian women, the best in the world! The language barrier really is a pain! No one understands ANYTHING!

We have many studies of Brazilian regions dominated by buffalo. To name just one, Google the Guaporé Biological Reserve, a one-million-hectare wilderness area on the border with Bolivia, overrun by buffalo since 1952. There are over 35,000 completely wild buffalo there. I flew over part of the area; the herds are almost infinite. And the government ecologists don't know how to solve it; they want to castrate the buffalo, hahahaha... surreal!

Apologies, I did miss the hurricane joke, as today we commemorate Hurricane Katrina.
Language translation is not always language intent, something I experienced in many travels in different countries, but missed this time.

I appreciate the reference to the Guapore Reserve; I will check it out.
Does Brazil license international hunters for the buffalo?
Best Regards,
Charles

 

[spike.t]

I wish Jerome would do a preorder for AH hats. Did I get off topic?

What size do you want..... ..375 or 416..?....