358 Winchester & 9.3x57 Question About Performance

[bruce moulds]

case capacity of the 358 might limit barnes bullets, as you might fit less powder than shorter bullets of the same weight.
bob, the x64 is not an eat the cake to round with 300 gn bullets.
for a zero of 200 yds, it just drops too much at 300.
286 gn bullets are far better for trajectory, but you still have to aim a bit high at 300.
in reality, when bullets start to drop more than 3", the range must be estimated more accurately and the further out you are the harder range is to estimate.
often using a rangefinder is impracticlal.
my own definition of point blank on big game is +/- 3", and less for small game and less again for varmints.
my own solution to this debate is to go to a 30/06 length action.
bruce.
bruce.

 

[Alaska Luke]

Powder Maker I'm glad you think the 358 would work for bear. Have you run it through bone on those kills? I would not take a long shot on a bear. My theory is get close and make the first shot count on things that bite back.

As far as long range and having your cake and eating it... If you run the calculations none of my rifles and loads (375, 308, 358) are really a 400 yard gun. At 300 yards they all need some holdover. If a shot looks to be over 250 I don't take it unless I can range the target and adjust appropriately. But at that point the fact that my 358 drops a tad more then my 308 is irrelevant. Either way I need to adjust careful or it won't be an ethical shot. I was about to get a long range scope for my 375 Ruger but now I'm toying with putting it on the 358. The adjustment is similar if I get the right bullets to load.

The great thing about my 358 is it uses a detachable magazine. If I can get two loads to work I can just swap mags for a long range shot. I'd hike loaded for bear obviously.

 

[Shootist43]

Alaska Luke, someone mentioned the use of a 348 Winchester for bear. I thought that caliber was well respected for that purpose. The 358 Winchester supposedly duplicates the ballistics of the 348. Try doing some research on the use of the 348 on bear and go from there. This potential use is why I bought my Winchester Model 71 (a lever action) which was only available in 348. As an aside, the distances you mentioned might be optimistic for these calibers. IMHO neither the 348 or the 358 is the equal of a 35 Whelen.

 

[Alaska Luke]

I've drooled over a few 348 Winchesters in gun shows, very nice rifles. I know people killed grizzlies with the 348. The old bear hunter Ben Lilly used a 33 Winchester to wipe out Arizona grizzlies. The 33 Winchester is a step down from the 348. Other old timers used the 30-40. All that is interesting but I think we'd all agree a 30-40 is not an ideal bear stopper. I'm not sure exactly where the 358 fits between the 30-40 and 375. If you Google it 90% of the 358 users are shooting deer.

Obviously a 358 isn't a 375, I just want to be sure that the first shot will have a descent chance of anchoring the bear.

 

[Shootist43]

Alaska Luke, I'm sure you would drool over mine as well, it is pristine with a low digit serial number i.e. 14XXX manufactured in 1936 I believe.

 

[Alaska Luke]

I most definitely would drool over that. I wanted a 450 Alaskan conversion when I was a kid, they seem less common these days.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Alaska Luke, I'm sure you would drool over mine as well, it is pristine with a low digit serial number i.e. 14XXX manufactured in 1936 I believe.

@Shootist43
Art that's why I went the Whelen. As a kid I remember reading about the 348being able to punch a big hole thru a deer from stem to stern. To get a 71 in OZ you would have more chance of becoming primer minister.
Almost 50years later I got the Whelen which is more of a good thing with new powders as a lot of people on this forum are discovering.
The 358 in OZ isn't th at common and those that have them refuse to let them go.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

the 358 fires the same bullet diameter as the whelen, but there the similarity ends.
the 358 is as good as the whelen at closer ranges, but as you get further out the whelen takes over, particularly loaded as bob has learned to load it.
this is both in trajectory and killing power.
use the 358 within its capability and you will be most happy.
try to stretch it and the bottom lip will start to quiver.
bruce.

 

[Rick HOlbert]

Well you're talking about a round near and dear to my heart. I used a .358 Win on my first trip to Africa. Used my handloads carefully worked up (I've been a handloader for 56 years) using Barnes 225grn TSX and W748. From the bench delivered 1/2 MOA at a chronographed 2510fps. Basically same load that Buffalo Bore puts out. No pressure signs, one finger bolt lift and extraction. At 105 yards on a big Kudu bull broke both shoulders AND the spine and still exited the off side. My PH said he had never seen a Kudu drop at the shot like that. I've sense switched to the Swift A-Frame 225grn as it does not compress the powder charge like the Barnes. Personally, I'd carry my .358 for grizzly.

 

[bruce moulds]

tht spine shot drops things like a bag of sh*t.
interesting about the swift bullet fitting in more powder than the barnes.
both fine bullets, but in capacity challenged cases the swift might have more to offer.
bruce.

 

[Rick HOlbert]

Bruce, I used the same powder charge for both bullets, W748 although Varget gave almost same performance. I got the data from Paco Kelly and if interested you can get it from him. As long as I've been reloading slight compression was ok but heavy compression a no no. Well,.... the Barnes really compresses the charge. I was a little apprehensive and slowly worked up to his load. It worked! The .358 was held down to roughly 45000 lbs pressure because some "experts" back in the day said the .358 had horrible recoil. Fact is it's no worse than a 30-06 with the same weight bullet. Loaded to approximately 55000 lbs pressure and the .358 will get to within 100 fps of what the 35 Whelen will do in factory loads.

 

[bruce moulds]

rick,
there are a lot of urban myths about compressing powder.
as long as you work up to it and it is proven safe and accurate, go for it.
i did use 748 in my 358 because it was such a good powder in a powder thrower.
bruce.

 

[Rick HOlbert]

rick,
there are a lot of urban myths about compressing powder.
as long as you work up to it and it is proven safe and accurate, go for it.
i did use 748 in my 358 because it was such a good powder in a powder thrower.
bruce.

Yes sir you’re so right. That cartridge has such an efficient combustion chamber. It was labeled a “brush”cartridge. With 180grn bullets it matches the trajectory of the .308 to 400 yards! Has anyone ever called the .308 a brush cartridge?
I’ve really enjoyed this thread. I hope this has been some help to Vintage .

 

[Powdermaker]

Powder Maker I'm glad you think the 358 would work for bear. Have you run it through bone on those kills? I would not take a long shot on a bear. My theory is get close and make the first shot count on things that bite back.

Alaska Luke, when you are talking about "bone", I assume you mean the heavy leg bone or humerus. I have seen a lot of elk shot with various calibers up to the .375 Ruger and H &H. It takes a large well constructed bullet to break the humerus and still penetrate adequately. I honestly don't know if the .358 it up to the task. Distance would be a big factor and you mentioned, you don't plan to shoot unless close. Elk are tough animals but a well placed 225 grain TSX is tougher. As I mentioned earlier, I don't have any experience with bears.
I once went on a goat hunt in the Yukon with a 7-08 rem. and my guide scoffed at my choice of caliber. I had to reminded him that his job is the get me close enough to the quarry, to where I am comfortable shooting. He kind of haaarumped at that, but we reached an understanding.
We tend to overthink ballistics, but that is part of the enjoyment in planning a hunt. I am guilty of this as well.

 

[Rick HOlbert]

Gents I'll step in one last time. On that trip to Namibia made a Texas heart shot on a zebra. Pound for pound a zebra is a tough animal to put down, heavy bones tough muscle tissue. I know, not a bear, but,... that bullet (225grn TSX) from the .358 broke his pelvis then went length wise through a 700lbs animal. The 348 was considered good bear medicine in the day. The .358 is better and with Buffalo Bore loads or modern handloads it will do the trick with proper shot placement.

 

[bruce moulds]

the point about bears is that if they are close and inbound, you might need to do the trick with less than proper shot placement.
here is where big enough caliber and good bullets pay a dividend.
i have read of bears that with their heart totally destroyed the blood in their brain carries enough oxygen for them to keep going for some time.
is this true?
just reading ricks report on the barnes and the zebra almost makes you wonder if the same bullet might be a little too much for caribou?
bruce.

 

[Alaska Luke]

Wow thanks for all the responses guys.

Rick your Kudu and Zebra story sounds very promising. I'll have to look up Kudu and Zebra skeletons later but I would think that's enough penetration for sure. For reference I shot an 8 foot grizzly and the humerus was about an inch across. Sounds like your load could have done that. Funny thing is the ribs were not much thicker than a caribou's. So on a broadside shot I think the 358 will be a bit better than a 30-06 with 220 grain bullets (similar energy but a bigger hole). My concern was that I was losing some penetration with the wider, less efficient bullets. But sounds promising.

Bruce yes shot placement would be imperfect on a charge hence the need to do it right the first time. But most of the time a solid hit will roll a bear in my experience so you have a moment to reload while he gets up and gets his bearings (if he lives long enough). A big wide hole through the chest helps (I'm sure a 308 has the penetration but I think the bleeding would be inadequate). And you are right such a tough bullet would be overkill on caribou except maybe up close. I've got a couple varieties of shofter bullets I'd load up if I went after caribou. I like the Sierra 225 grain GK. They have a similar poi to the Swifts, they are cheap and they should work on softer critters like caribou.

I think the 358 and 35 Whelen need a few more long range bullets like the SST for low velocity hits.

There is a picture of my little rifle. Still a work in progress but she is 5.5 pounds without the scope and 6 lbs 5oz with it. I added iron sites and trimmed the stock. Need to fix the recoil pad and possibly lighten the trigger. Great gun for my human powered hunts and hunts when I carry my rifle and a kid's rifle.

 

[RayAtkinson]

Caliber wise its a push, both being excellent choices for short range hunting..I might add either will handle anything up to the big bears of Alaska when used by a cool head and good bullet placement with the proper bullet..

 

[Rick HOlbert]

Good day sir, I whole heartily agree. The .358 Win was designed too replace the .348 Win and back in the day it was considered good bear medicine.
On a lighter note, you by any chance related to a Mr. Jack Atkinson? Just curious as I have a close friend who has hunted with the Atkinson family of outfitters often.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Wow thanks for all the responses guys.

Rick your Kudu and Zebra story sounds very promising. I'll have to look up Kudu and Zebra skeletons later but I would think that's enough penetration for sure. For reference I shot an 8 foot grizzly and the humerus was about an inch across. Sounds like your load could have done that. Funny thing is the ribs were not much thicker than a caribou's. So on a broadside shot I think the 358 will be a bit better than a 30-06 with 220 grain bullets (similar energy but a bigger hole). My concern was that I was losing some penetration with the wider, less efficient bullets. But sounds promising.

Bruce yes shot placement would be imperfect on a charge hence the need to do it right the first time. But most of the time a solid hit will roll a bear in my experience so you have a moment to reload while he gets up and gets his bearings (if he lives long enough). A big wide hole through the chest helps (I'm sure a 308 has the penetration but I think the bleeding would be inadequate). And you are right such a tough bullet would be overkill on caribou except maybe up close. I've got a couple varieties of shofter bullets I'd load up if I went after caribou. I like the Sierra 225 grain GK. They have a similar poi to the Swifts, they are cheap and they should work on softer critters like caribou.

I think the 358 and 35 Whelen need a few more long range bullets like the SST for low velocity hits.

View attachment 386295

There is a picture of my little rifle. Still a work in progress but she is 5.5 pounds without the scope and 6 lbs 5oz with it. I added iron sites and trimmed the stock. Need to fix the recoil pad and possibly lighten the trigger. Great gun for my human powered hunts and hunts when I carry my rifle and a kid's rifle.

@Alaska Luke
Try the 225 grain Woodleigh PPSP in your 358. Flatwater base bonded bullet that will expand down to 1,800 fps. I loaded it in the Whelen at 2,950fps SAFELY and took my zebra stallion with it one shot. Broke the near shoulder, stuffed the lungs and heart and smashed the offside shoulder. Bullet impact velocity was still around the max recommended impact velocity at 120 yards. The bullet held up well and retained around 175 grains of its 225.
Bob

225 grain Woodleigh from my zebra.

My zebra
I think the 225 grain Woodleigh PPSP would be the ducks guts in the 358 at 2,500 fps