358 and 308 Bullets Question Bear Hunting

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Well last night we got a black bear.
View attachment 404806
Bro did an awesome job but he freely admits having a bear in his sights got the heart racing. He forgot to take the safety off the first time we saw a bear. Fortunately a bigger one showed up later and he sealed the deal.

I think I feel good going with what was intuitive over a bit more powerful. Your first bear hunt is no time to break in a new gun.

The was the fattest bear I've shot. We were carving off peice of fat 1/2 thick. You had to peel thr fat back to know where to make cuts in the actual meat. The 308 with a 200 grain Partition did fine obviously. Full penetration at a slight angle and a dead bear.

We're going to try for a grizzly next. But even if we strike out there its been a great trip for bro. The black bear is in good shape and will make a nice rug.

@Alaska Luke
Congratulations to the both of you.
I hope you get your grizzly
Bob

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I bet that was fun!

 

[C.W. Richter]

It's when things don't go right that the 358 A-Frame will take care of business better (penetration, larger wound channel.) I'd stick with that. The black bears here get to be <900 lbs. 200 gr NPs and a 3006 are the minimum, though depending upon terrain our preferences are 300 Win Mag (200+), 338 (225-250), 358 (250) 375 (270) and 416 (400). A black bear is no brown so the NPs work just fine for that. The Swift is the way to go on the big boars.

 

[double rifle newbie]

im in the minority in this thread but having a couple of up close and personal experience for some brooks range grizzly bear hunts, in my humble opinion, shoot the absolute biggest caliber you can for griz. if your client cant shoot the 358 then have them use the .308 but go ahead and plan on using your rifle. griz can take a lot of lead. they just dont want to give up. and this is an animal that in a lot of cases if they figure out what hurt them, will come for you. nothing scarier than walking into a willow thicket after a wounded griz (who like other DG will circle back and wait if they know they are being pushed). my first trip to alaska was a float trip on the situk river in 1980 for salmon and we had two .308s for protection. we floated down to Yakutat fishing as we went. a few days after float fishing we made it to Yakutat and happened to start a conversation with a bear guide in the only restaurant in yakutat at the time. we told him we had 308s for protection and he replied “you should have had baseball bats.” Can a 308 kill a bear? absolutely. Can it STOP a charge short of a brain or spine hit? no. a griz is a lot like a cape buff in that they have very slow heartbeats and extra large adrenal glands. they can store enough oxygen in their brain to maul someone for a minute even after a shot shreds their heart, and they are certainly going to die. That being said, I am addicted to griz hunting but i would never go with a 308. my 416 RM goes with me in griz country

 

[Alaska Luke]

My brother got some range time in and got comfortable with the 358 Winchester. He appreciates the light weight. He carried it the rest of the hunt loaded up with 225 grain Swift A Frames.

Sadly we never saw a grizzly. This season was a bit weird. Anyway the last evening we saw a nice black bear. Since my brother was tagged out I grabbed the 358 from him and shot the bear through the lungs. Holy cow that 358 hits hard! The bear died maybe 12 feet from where I shot him, massive blood loss and a nice sized exit wound. Just for a fun comparison, the other bear (killed with the 308) was also hit through the lungs but made it about 50 to 60 yards before piling up.

So I learned to things.

1. The Swift A Frame will expand on a smaller bear even if it doesn't hit a major bone. Its overkill but it works.
2. The 358 definitely seems to kill things faster. The two bears were roughly the same size, the impact velocity of the 308 and 358 were similar, and the bullet weights were similar (200 grain vs 225). The 308 used softer Partitions which theoretically should have helped make a big hole compared to the tougher A Frames. But with all that the 358 killed the bear much quicker.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

My brother got some range time in and got comfortable with the 358 Winchester. He appreciates the light weight. He carried it the rest of the hunt loaded up with 225 grain Swift A Frames.

Sadly we never saw a grizzly. This season was a bit weird. Anyway the last evening we saw a nice black bear. Since my brother was tagged out I grabbed the 358 from him and shot the bear through the lungs. Holy cow that 358 hits hard! The bear died maybe 12 feet from where I shot him, massive blood loss and a nice sized exit wound. Just for a fun comparison, the other bear (killed with the 308) was also hit through the lungs but made it about 50 to 60 yards before piling up.
View attachment 406608
So I learned to things.

1. The Swift A Frame will expand on a smaller bear even if it doesn't hit a major bone. Its overkill but it works.
2. The 358 definitely seems to kill things faster. The two bears were roughly the same size, the impact velocity of the 308 and 358 were similar, and the bullet weights were similar (200 grain vs 225). The 308 used softer Partitions which theoretically should have helped make a big hole compared to the tougher A Frames. But with all that the 358 killed the bear much quicker.

@Alaska Luke
Mate as I keep telling people the little 358 punches well above it's weight and what you hit with it stays hit and don't go far. Recoil isn't that much more in similar weight rifles but on the other end that bigger hole makes a he'll of a difference.
Best thing they ever did to the 243 was neck it up to 308 and 358.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[Alaska Luke]

Yep it sure seems to help Bob.

The comparison on the bears was interesting. I was wondering if the softer Partition would make the 308 roughly equal to the 358 as far as wounding diameter.

Measuring a bullet hole is a bit inexact but I'd say the 358 entrance hole was bigger. The exits were pretty similar if I recall. But the 358 seemed to dump energy a bit faster.

All things equal I doubt any animal would survive a 308 hit but not a 358. But it's nice if they die a bit faster.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Yep it sure seems to help Bob.

The comparison on the bears was interesting. I was wondering if the softer Partition would make the 308 roughly equal to the 358 as far as wounding diameter.

Measuring a bullet hole is a bit inexact but I'd say the 358 entrance hole was bigger. The exits were pretty similar if I recall. But the 358 seemed to dump energy a bit faster.

All things equal I doubt any animal would survive a 308 hit but not a 358. But it's nice if they die a bit faster.

@Alaska Luke
A proper hit on any animal with the right cartridge will work, but the 358 and the Whelen seem to do so more emphatically. The Oryx I hit with the 250 grain round nose seemed to shudder from stem to stern. The 35s seen to rattle game a bit more and they definitely know the have been hit .There's just something about the 35s.
Bob

 

[Alaska Luke]

Bob I've heard the theory that round nosed bullets dump energy faster than the same caliber/weight pointy bullets. Maybe it's the difference between cutting yourself with a razer blade vs a jagged rock. Now that I think about it those A Frames are somewhat blunt.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob I've heard the theory that round nosed bullets dump energy faster than the same caliber/weight pointy bullets. Maybe it's the difference between cutting yourself with a razer blade vs a jagged rock. Now that I think about it those A Frames are somewhat blunt.

@Alaska Luke
I have just got hold of some woodleigh 225 grain RNSP to try in my Whelen. Should be interesting on pigs.
Bob