210gr Copper Solid 300 Win Mag?

[Saul]

I use Barnes TTSX almost exclusively. I would never use a solid for non-DG.

 

[Ryan]

You want maximum effect and minimum organ and meat damage using a 300 Win Mag. My first thought is not the bullet but bullet placement. Head and neck shots. In that case this bullet works wonders. Peregrine monolithics out of South Africa makes copper solids in this caliber, Discrete Ballistics supposedly started distributing them. Contact them and see if they'll make an order of Peregrine solid copper bullets in 30 cal in weights from 150 to 220. Assuming you are going for the usual heart/lung vitals you need a bullet to cause both trauma and shock. A solid is not the best option there, its small frontal area is not going to cause much damage by either to soft tissue. In that case I'd suggest the 180 grain Barnes TTSX. They expand, causing both trauma and shock, but retain most, if not all their weight and their mushroom tends to be smaller than a copper/lead bullet. They expand in the body cavity, causing damage and then exit with a small exit wound. But this is all relative to shot placement. Broadside shots in the lungs just above the heart and avoiding any leg or shoulder bones are going to be key there. If you hit major bone all bets are off, but that's true with any bullet.
Good luck, good hunting

 

[poco]

^^^^^
i 100% agree on its not bullet choice, but shot placement
if a hunter can’t hit a neck or head shot @ decent range while biltong hunting they should 1. Buy a more accurate rifle or 2. Practice more

 

[michael458]

Anyone used Cutting edge 210 grain safari copper solids in a 300 win mag? I’ve seen on YouTube that it goes deeper than a 45-70 through wood and cinder blocks. Also open to other solid bullets. I want to make an extremely powerful 300 Win Mag load that isn’t explosive even at close range for meat preservation

Immense penetration (although I personally prefer brass to copper).

Cutting Edge Solids Safari Solids in larger calibers are made of brass.

I was asked by CEB to evaluate these new .308 Copper Bullets in which we put them through a very thorough test late February...... To end any speculation or further conversation on this subject, I too very very much prefer BRASS for the solids, and that was my recommendation at the end of my report to Dan. However, here is the concern with Brass and .308 caliber....... Future Classification of Armor Piercing and in addition states that ban Lead content, Brass does have lead content. With Copper one does not have to be concerned about either of those issues.

To start out lets look at the 8 Known Factors of Solid Penetration (Short Version)



The 8 Known Factors Involving Solid Straight Line Penetration & Depth of Penetration

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber

#2 Nose Profile

#3 Construction & Material

#4 Nose Projection

#5 Radius Edge of Meplat

Above Factors are in Bullet Design

#6 Velocity

#7 Barrel Twist Rate

#8 Sectional Density


And now, lets look at Factor #3 a little closer.............

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

I mentioned Strong Nose profile can overcome some material deficiencies, and this is true, to a point, but now we are talking about a small caliber bullet .308 caliber, and while the #13 Nose Profile of CEB is very strong, we are saddled with a small caliber, and .308 caliber solid is not as strong as a .458 caliber solid.

We tested in 308 Winchester and 300 Winchester. In the tests to be shown, you will see Factor #6 come into play.

#6 Velocity
Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor
I will show you that More Velocity, well, it does not always Equate to MORE..............

There are 3 Copper Solids Made by CEB...........

There is too much information to put in one post, so I am going to break this up into two more posts, one for 308 Winchester and the other for 300 Winchester. So you can see the differences in how the bullets react at different velocities.............

 

[michael458]

CEB Solid Tests with 308 Winchester................

 

[michael458]

CEB Solid Tests with 300 Winchester

 

[michael458]

Now, if you look at all these, or at least most of these Copper Solids there is distortion and deformation in the nose, you can see a change in overall bullet length as well. While I was putting these together, I also took measurements of the FIRED and recovered bullets just to see how much they shortened. I compiled this data so you could see exactly how much this copper flowed and moved at different velocities and tests……….

One of the main purposes of all of these bullets is for Law Enforcement and the ability to penetrate barriers.

This was 4 sheets of Lex Glass or whatever, 1/4 inch thick, making a FUll 1 inch Barrier of Lex Glass……

 

[AimSmall]

I use the 130 CEB solid in 6.5 for the tiny antelope.

Very accurate, deadly, minimal cape damage.

 

[Elliott Ugalde]

You want maximum effect and minimum organ and meat damage using a 300 Win Mag. My first thought is not the bullet but bullet placement. Head and neck shots. In that case this bullet works wonders. Peregrine monolithics out of South Africa makes copper solids in this caliber, Discrete Ballistics supposedly started distributing them. Contact them and see if they'll make an order of Peregrine solid copper bullets in 30 cal in weights from 150 to 220. Assuming you are going for the usual heart/lung vitals you need a bullet to cause both trauma and shock. A solid is not the best option there, its small frontal area is not going to cause much damage by either to soft tissue. In that case I'd suggest the 180 grain Barnes TTSX. They expand, causing both trauma and shock, but retain most, if not all their weight and their mushroom tends to be smaller than a copper/lead bullet. They expand in the body cavity, causing damage and then exit with a small exit wound. But this is all relative to shot placement. Broadside shots in the lungs just above the heart and avoiding any leg or shoulder bones are going to be key there. If you hit major bone all bets are off, but that's true with any bullet.
Good luck, good hunting

I’ll definitely look into those! Shot placement I’m very good with, I tend to take my time with shots and not rush it even when the animal knows I’m there because there’s no point in causing unnecessary suffering.

I was asked by CEB to evaluate these new .308 Copper Bullets in which we put them through a very thorough test late February...... To end any speculation or further conversation on this subject, I too very very much prefer BRASS for the solids, and that was my recommendation at the end of my report to Dan. However, here is the concern with Brass and .308 caliber....... Future Classification of Armor Piercing and in addition states that ban Lead content, Brass does have lead content. With Copper one does not have to be concerned about either of those issues.

To start out lets look at the 8 Known Factors of Solid Penetration (Short Version)



The 8 Known Factors Involving Solid Straight Line Penetration & Depth of Penetration

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber

#2 Nose Profile

#3 Construction & Material

#4 Nose Projection

#5 Radius Edge of Meplat

Above Factors are in Bullet Design

#6 Velocity

#7 Barrel Twist Rate

#8 Sectional Density


And now, lets look at Factor #3 a little closer.............

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

I mentioned Strong Nose profile can overcome some material deficiencies, and this is true, to a point, but now we are talking about a small caliber bullet .308 caliber, and while the #13 Nose Profile of CEB is very strong, we are saddled with a small caliber, and .308 caliber solid is not as strong as a .458 caliber solid.

We tested in 308 Winchester and 300 Winchester. In the tests to be shown, you will see Factor #6 come into play.

#6 Velocity
Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor
I will show you that More Velocity, well, it does not always Equate to MORE..............

There are 3 Copper Solids Made by CEB...........

There is too much information to put in one post, so I am going to break this up into two more posts, one for 308 Winchester and the other for 300 Winchester. So you can see the differences in how the bullets react at different velocities.............

wow thank you for all the input and info on this! I really appreciate it. I can’t find any info anywhere else on these specific bullets especially when it comes to the hunting department. All I can find YouTube wise is NYPrepper lol. Thank you again.

 

[C.W. Richter]

In Oregon it’s legal to use solid bullets. Deer, Elk and possibly black bear or cougar if I’m lucky enough to cross one. However lead expanding bullets destroy a lot of meat and turns the organs to mush (yes I like to eat the organs). At long range lead bullets work just fine but within 250-200ish yards they seem to make fist size exit holes every time and that’s a lot of meat loss. I should also add that currently my Ruger M77 Hawkeye is the only hunting rifle I own so that’s why I don’t just simply use another rifle

the higher the SD of a conventional (even TSX or TTSX which are expanding tip solids, essentially) bullet, the much less apt it is to "blow up" upon entry or within an animal. So, a stoutly constructed SP bullet of 180-200 gr (200 NP is my fav do it all bullet for the 300 WM, although 165s are better for deer and smaller at longer range) but the Swift or TTSX/TSX perform just fine. Using lower SD bullets (the typ "deer season" 150-165 gr bullets (as well as the older Bergers and Nos BTs) would sometimes blow apart on shoulders or inside animals and make messes. That said, I still never lost one w/ a 300 WM (only some meat and the remaining meat was higher in macronutrients, Cu, etc.) If you strive for bullets that are 0.280-0.300 or higher for what you speak of, you shouldn't have any issues. 0.280 and lower w/ non-premium bullets inside 100 yds could make a mess w/ >3,000 fps rigs. Enjoy! IDT solids are the way to go. Expanding bullets create a much larger wound channel inside the animals you mention, effectively killing them. Solids can be more like using archery field points if the hit isn't just right. On pygmy antelope or other small creatures you wish to mount (baboon, monkeys, etc.) it's a great idea. Are you expecting unwanted company out there??

 

[Elliott Ugalde]

the higher the SD of a conventional (even TSX or TTSX which are expanding tip solids, essentially) bullet, the much less apt it is to "blow up" upon entry or within an animal. So, a stoutly constructed SP bullet of 180-200 gr (200 NP is my fav do it all bullet for the 300 WM, although 165s are better for deer and smaller at longer range) but the Swift or TTSX/TSX perform just fine. Using lower SD bullets (the typ "deer season" 150-165 gr bullets (as well as the older Bergers and Nos BTs) would sometimes blow apart on shoulders or inside animals and make messes. That said, I still never lost one w/ a 300 WM (only some meat and the remaining meat was higher in macronutrients, Cu, etc.) If you strive for bullets that are 0.280-0.300 or higher for what you speak of, you shouldn't have any issues. 0.280 and lower w/ non-premium bullets inside 100 yds could make a mess w/ >3,000 fps rigs. Enjoy! IDT solids are the way to go. Expanding bullets create a much larger wound channel inside the animals you mention, effectively killing them. Solids can be more like using archery field points if the hit isn't just right. On pygmy antelope or other small creatures you wish to mount (baboon, monkeys, etc.) it's a great idea. Are you expecting unwanted company out there??

Noted! I’ve also never had an issue with loosing whatever I shot with my .300 Win Mag, I always just feel disappointed when there’s a small fist sized hole exiting the other side because I like to preserve as much meat as possible. I thought the solids I posted might be good for meat saving, and I wasn’t too worried about over penetration without enough energy because I’d likely shoot through the shoulder with the solid. I personally do believe that the solids out a 300 winny would be great for DG in a defense situation because it would penetrate very deep and destroy whatever it touches in the process but I was more so wanting meat.