Not sure if this is confirmed, but I’d sure hate to see it happen!
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The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise
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mark-hunter
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It is interesting that in our collective knowledge, modern era, and nostalgia for bygone times we do not hear much more about man eaters of India and men who hunt them. We remember the Corbetts time, with his writings.
But they are still there.
I am reading this book, written by Nawab Shafath Ali Khan.
He is modern day man eater hunter, tranquilizing the man eaters and rogue animals of India.
If tranquilizing does not work, than lethal method is used (on govt orders)
.
A Life time carrier devoted to human and wild life conflict in India. Same as Corbett, for no reward.
This book should find a way to international market. First edition of 5000 pcs is gone, mostly in India.
I most certainly am referring to the timber .
Marko, I’ll try to get hold of the book.
If I recall correctly, Prince Shafath Ali Khan is one of the last remaining problem animal hunters in India. He even has a licence to kill, just like Bond,,,James Bond!
I believe he and our own Golam Saheb are related as well. Quite a remarkable family legacy, and charisma to match.
These gentlemen are the real deal, hunting man eaters, that are also hunting you, where every step seems to be the last. There’s a world of difference between that and someone flaunting decades of experience across a laundry list of double-digit species, complete with a know-it-all attitude, who takes offence the moment you question his views or dare to poke a hole in his arguments.
In my book, genuine experience speaks for itself. It doesn’t need to be advertised, nor does it require reprimanding others who dare to disagree.
This has become one of the most derailed threads in recent history
Schaapen
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Interesting article suggests that Bells choice of smaller calibres and lighter rifles was not dictated entirely by ammunition availability? http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm
mark-hunter
AH ambassador
Even now, in modern day, wounding is not popular subject. PH.s and outfitters who have very good overview with numerous clients on annual basis, season after season, keep strict silence about this. Cosa Nostra.
Reading the books of old hands, I could not find much about that.
I wonder how many elephants have been lost, say out of this WDMs total bill of 1011?
After making more then 1000 shots at paper targets at perfect range conditions, standing with center fire rifles, (which is solid number), I know I have had number of bad shots, with some of it.
now lets take 1000 shots in the field, in field conditions?
The same question remains, for all other old hands, ivory hunters.
Regardless of caliber they used.
Even on this forum, on hunt report section I can recall only one elephant lost after wounding.
Only one.
All this is not realistic sample.
And only outfitters and PHs would know best.
I wish they would speak.
I suppose, modern legal minimum of 375 H&H caliber for elephant, plus price of sport hunting, reduced the number of wounding and losses.
Hunters in general do not take lighltly their hard earned dollars.
But occasional woundings are still there.
Elephant has value today, unlike in WDM Bells time (when the value was zero).
Shoot, wound, lose, pay nothing.
Shoot again tomorrow.
And dont speak of wounding.
Old days.
And sell ivory
The tradition of cutting the tail, comes from elephants being lost.
Find dead elephant, with tail, and its yours.
Only somebody else shot it before.
Find the dead elephant without tail? Somebody will come back, to collect ivory.
Reading the books of old hands, I could not find much about that.
I wonder how many elephants have been lost, say out of this WDMs total bill of 1011?
After making more then 1000 shots at paper targets at perfect range conditions, standing with center fire rifles, (which is solid number), I know I have had number of bad shots, with some of it.
now lets take 1000 shots in the field, in field conditions?
The same question remains, for all other old hands, ivory hunters.
Regardless of caliber they used.
Even on this forum, on hunt report section I can recall only one elephant lost after wounding.
Only one.
All this is not realistic sample.
And only outfitters and PHs would know best.
I wish they would speak.
I suppose, modern legal minimum of 375 H&H caliber for elephant, plus price of sport hunting, reduced the number of wounding and losses.
Hunters in general do not take lighltly their hard earned dollars.
But occasional woundings are still there.
Elephant has value today, unlike in WDM Bells time (when the value was zero).
Shoot, wound, lose, pay nothing.
Shoot again tomorrow.
And dont speak of wounding.
Old days.
And sell ivory
The tradition of cutting the tail, comes from elephants being lost.
Find dead elephant, with tail, and its yours.
Only somebody else shot it before.
Find the dead elephant without tail? Somebody will come back, to collect ivory.
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This is a very human phenomenon. How many of us are willing to openly acknowledge our shortcomings, let alone admit to them publicly? Far too often, we are affronted by the very truths of life, and hunting is no exception.
I have put many thousands of pistol rounds through paper targets at distances ranging from 10 to 25 yards. I shoot reasonably well with the handloads Andrew Nola provided me, but how many rounds miss the mark? Quite a few, as it happens, whether due to trigger control, fatigue, a lapse in concentration or something else. I accept that as part of the process and try to learn from it.
My father used to tell me that mistakes are part of life. Accept them, learn from them, and try not to repeat them. He also believed that a person who claims to be flawless probably isn't doing much of anything!
The same principle applies to hunting and shooting. No matter how much you practise or prepare, conditions, terrain and the behaviour of the quarry introduce variables that no amount of preparation can entirely eliminate. You have to be adaptable, make adjustments as circumstances demand, and accept that sometimes things simply won't go your way.
Karamojo Bell was human, after all. To me, the occasional failure across more than a thousand ivory hunts, conducted under the conditions of those times, is an entirely inconsequential footnote. If anything, it makes his achievements all the more remarkable and speaks volumes about the man's skill, judgement and experience.
Perhaps we could all benefit from being a little more willing to acknowledge our misses, learn from them, and move on. After all, admitting that we aren't infallible doesn't diminish our accomplishments; it makes them that much more credible.
rookhawk
AH ambassador
Let me preface this by saying that I'm not planning to have a fist fight hereI tend to sometimes think and act differently to conventional wisdons - Carry enough gun, Bigger is always better ...
The Canon Myth: Precision over power.
Let’s talk about the biggest flaw in dangerous game hunting: the "bigger is always better" mentality. We’ve all seen it a hunter turns up with a massive, shoulder-bruising canon 577, 600, Overkill ..only to develop a terminal case of the flinch and unable to place a shot accurately and recycle.
A perfect shot from a .375 H&H or 9.3×62mm beats a flinched, gut-shot from a .460 Weatherby
It’s not about the biggest stick, I know Teddy said that, it's about carrying the right caliber and bullet for the specific game. There is no universal "unicorn" load. If you skip the elephant cannons, you can absolutely hunt safely with smaller calibers, provided you adapt your strategy.
The great Karamajo Bell.
Iconic hunter W.D.M. "Karamojo" Bell harvested hundreds of elephants with a tiny 7×57mm Mauser (.275 Rigby). He succeeded because he used heavy, non-deforming military solids that drove deep and straight, relying on anatomy over raw horsepower.
Translating that to a modern .375 platform means matching rifle to the animal -
- Do not use a 300-grain expanding TSX on an elephant. It acts like a parachute and halts penetration prematurely.
- Scale down the caliber, but keep the bullet structure rigid. Pushing a 300-grain Barnes Banded Solid .375 easily achieves the straight-line penetration needed to reach an elephant's brain.
The Trade-Off: Margin for Error
Let’s bust the myth: no bullet instantly drops an elephant with a body shot. However, going with a lighter, shootable setup changes your safety net.
When a charge happens, a 500-grain solid from a .416 or .458 delivers a massive shockwave. It has a much higher chance of breaking heavy shoulder bones or knocking the animal off balance to buy you time. Opting for a lighter setup means your margin for error shrinks. You must be more disciplined, wait for the perfect angle, and rely entirely on surgical precision rather than brute force
What say you, gentlemen?
Are you trading the heavy "safety net" of a punishing .458 for the laser-like placement of a manageable .375?
Let’s hear your thoughts below!Be gentle. My shoulder isn't the only thing that's sensitive.
Powder makes a major impact on actual AND perceived recoil. Gun fit makes a tremendous difference as well. A rifle of the proper weight and balance makes a big difference as well. Gun shooting technique and doing silly things like shooting off benches amplify recoil.
95% of the guns people buy are wrong for their tasks in my opinion. Then they complain they cannot handle the recoil.
Recoil aversion due to "too much gun" is rarely the cause of the aversion. It's just what someone lodges in their brain as the cause instead of considering all the elements that cause that recoil.
Shoot the largest caliber rifle you can shoot well that is suitable for the task at hand.
P.S. - My kids were hunting dangerous game at age 9. Understanding key principles of recoil and gun fit are how that was possible.
mark-hunter
AH ambassador
Well, for one, I did.
In Africa I am 100% with animals shot and collected, but I described how I missed. (my eland hunt report, missing waterbuck, or missing with 22lr repeatedly on small game, on elephant hunt report)
Of myself I think I am average shooter, who just trains and has discipline not to shoot unless certain of hit. Nothing special.
I come from presumption that life is too short to lie, or avoid the truth, and my public posts will be live for ever with internet.
Why should I be lier? it is like lieing, to my self.
In my experience and understanding, the culture of "hunt for free" with animals of zero value, leads to easy negligence.
This is very common in "social" hunting club for cheap membership in my area.
If you wound and lose animal, and report it, your tag is used, animal value is zero, and one animal is deducted from annual quota.
If the hunter keeps his mouth shut, he can hunt another day with same tag.
Get another animal, pay nothing, take meat home, and go on.
There is incentive in such system for not reporting wounding.
Does it happen really?
Yes, because dead animals shot and rotten have been found.
Moreover, ammo is expensive. Why bother wasting ammo on paper target? To zero, to test, or to train?
In most cases, gunsmith zeroes the rifle.
Hunter changes ammunition, hunts from season to season, and there is no legal requirement to check rifle before hunting seoson, and all bits and pieces come into place.
Result is zero gun culture, and erroded ethics.
I have seen that.
More over, during one of my PG safaris, I ended in a group who hunted there.
And that group of hunters (from my country) coming from such culture, in African hunting camp, had about 20% of animal loss rate.
Each of them lost at least one animal (including sable), from a package of 5.
Ups!
African safari industry where animal has value, against social club hunting culture, where animal value is zero, and with habits and skills from that environment.
I have seen that.
Now: go on elephant and buffalo hunt, high value, high stake hunt.
The hunt starts first day with testing the rifle, and months before that with careful choice of ammunition or load development.
Sudenly, the ethics evolve, because animal has value.
Some very valid points here, particularly regarding gun fit, balance, loading and shooting technique, all of which can make a substantial difference to the shooter's experience of recoil.
That said, I would respectfully add another dimension to the discussion. People differ in their physical build, experience, confidence and tolerance for recoil, and what works comfortably for one person may not necessarily work for another. Even with a well fitted rifle and sound technique, the recoil generated by a heavy cartridge remains a factor worth considering.
Bullet selection also deserves consideration. A well-constructed bullet in a more modest cartridge can deliver remarkably effective penetration and expansion across a surprisingly broad range of game.
I also agree that the rifle should be appropriate for the task at hand. Where I would perhaps respectfully differ is in the idea of shooting the largest calibre one can shoot well. For me, the objective is to find the right balance between adequate performance for the intended quarry, practical handling and the ability to place the shot confidently and consistently.
In practice, the real question is how the shooter performs under field conditions: cold, tired, winded, shooting from awkward positions, with one opportunity and no time to settle in. Someone who shoots a .500 well on a bench, off sticks or even freehand may perform noticeably differently after a long stalk. A flinch that creeps in under those circumstances can cost far more than any additional energy the larger cartridge brings to the table.
Ultimately, I think we are all better served by understanding our own limitations rather than feeling obliged to prove otherwise. There is no shame in choosing a rifle that allows you to shoot comfortably and effectively. After all, the quarry will never know, let alone appreciate, the calibre stamped on the barrel!
On a personal note, I started shooting when I was 12. My first shot was at a pesky crow that had been giving my mother grief, using our Belgian 12-bore. I still remember that recoil rather vividly! The old Paradox, by comparison, was considerably more forgiving and deadly accurate. Those days are now etched in my memory.
Marko- I appreciate your perspective, and particularly your willingness to openly acknowledge your misses and shortcomings. I don't think we disagree on the importance of honesty, preparation and ethical responsibility in hunting. On those points, I suspect we are very much on the same page.
Your observations about the hunting culture you describe are interesting, although I would be reluctant to generalise from one environment to another. Incentives, regulations and the value attached to an animal can certainly influence behaviour, but ultimately, hunting ethics ought to be intrinsic to the individual, not dictated by the price of a tag or the value of the trophy.
My point was perhaps a little broader. Regardless of how much we practise, how carefully we prepare or how experienced we become, we are still human. Misses, imperfect shots and occasional failures are part of the equation. What matters is how we acknowledge them, what we learn from them and, most importantly, how we conduct ourselves when things don't go according to plan.
I absolutely agree that a high stakes buffalo or elephant hunt demands meticulous preparation, including checking one's rifle and ammunition before heading into the field. In fact, I would argue that the same discipline and responsibility should extend to every hunt, irrespective of the quarry or its monetary value.
For me, ethical hunting isn't simply about ensuring that an animal is recovered. It is also about being honest when it isn't, taking responsibility for the outcome and making every reasonable effort to avoid repeating the mistake.
I have seen many hunt reports here that allude to the above principles and it deserves respects.
And perhaps that is where our experiences converge more than they differ.
IvW
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I am thank you...
They are doing rheir advanced rifle handling today until tuesday....
She will be using 375H&H for the assesment.
They have to do the practical assesment every 3 years to remain current/licensed....
The intensity of the training and assesment is next level....1 fu....and you fail....
Some of the drills have to be done blind folded....
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