Vetting Outfitters And Shady Practices

So the group has a good idea regarding day rates for Massailand I’ve compiled some prices from 3 different outfitters:

7 day license-non premium-no buff 30k for all 3
10 day premium license with buff two outfitters are at 50k one outfitter is at 45k a 4th outfitter that hunts next to Tarangire is at 108k

There are obviously outfitters who offer better prices in some areas that may not be prime areas, but these are the going rates. As we all know day rates for Tanzania and Massailand are going to be the most expensive in all of Africa.
 
Massailand is the most expansive part of the country to hunt. It’s not a hunt everyone can afford. $21k is substantially below going rate for day rates alone in that area.
I learned this from my boat diesel engine mechanic. He is charging heavily foreign yacht owners.
On the end of day, It is not the cost that matters, but it is the quality of service provided.
I would add, the memories too

Unsuccesful buffalo hunt for 21k, remains unseccesful hunt
Successful buffalo hunt for 5k (cow in south Africa) or 30, 40k successful hunt on a dwarfs buffalo bull in rain forest, (you name it) remains successful hunt.

As we grow old, only memories remain. of our successes or of our failures. Only that. The money we spent on our success is of less importance. 5k or 40k, irrellevant.
We cherish only the success.

Outfitter should clarify the local conditions of the hunt in advance when making the deal.
Client should have asked more details, before making the deal..
But the client has the right not to know everything - because he is hiring professionals.
Client has the right to have zero knowledge.

Outfitter has better half of responsibility
 
I learned this from my boat diesel engine mechanic. He is charging heavily foreign yacht owners.
On the end of day, It is not the cost that matters, but it is the quality of service provided.
I would add, the memories too

Unsuccesful buffalo hunt for 21k, remains unseccesful hunt
Successful buffalo hunt for 5k (cow in south Africa) or 30, 40k successful hunt on a dwarfs buffalo bull in rain forest, (you name it) remains successful hunt.

As we grow old, only memories remain. of our successes or of our failures. Only that. The money we spent on our success is of less importance. 5k or 40k, irrellevant.
We cherish only the success.

Outfitter should clarify the local conditions of the hunt in advance when making the deal.
Client should have asked more details, before making the deal..
But the client has the right not to know everything - because he is hiring professionals.
Client has the right to have zero knowledge.

Outfitter has better half of responsibility
For sure, but I’ll compare it to something else. You can spend let’s say $1000 on a Leupold scope from an authorized dealer or you can spend $500 from “Joe’s Sporting Goods” on eBay. Maybe the $500 scope is real or maybe it’s a counterfeit from China. You took a gamble to save money. There’s a point where the client/buyer should know better if he loses on the bet. $21k could have provided a great buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe. $21k is Massailand is a red flag. It’s too far below the going rate. I’m honestly surprised there was even game on the concession. The shipping problems and the PH not getting paid are what I would expect from that kind of deal. The deal was too good to be true and it appears it was.

I could also compare to buying a used car, buying a house, or really any major purchase. There’s some due diligence expected on part of the buyer.
 
It feels like people are looking at this as it's all (or almost all) one or the other's fault, either the client or the outfitter is totally or almost totally to blame. But the two things are not mutually exclusive. Two things can be true at once. A client can be in a scenario where they should have done more research, but that doesn't excuse a scum bag grifting people for tens of thousands of dollars either.

If you promise a service for a price, outright lie, and don't deliver, you are still a scum bag. People should be allowed to talk about that in order to warn others.
 
It feels like people are looking at this as it's all (or almost all) one or the other's fault, either the client or the outfitter is totally or almost totally to blame. But the two things are not mutually exclusive. Two things can be true at once. A client can be in a scenario where they should have done more research, but that doesn't excuse a scum bag grifting people for tens of thousands of dollars either.

If you promise a service for a price, outright lie, and don't deliver, you are still a scum bag. People should be allowed to talk about that in order to warn others.
In the case of this low cost massailand hunt. I think it’s 50/50, a lying agent(s) and a naive client. Write a report, but the blatant red flags are hard to ignore. It’s easy to blame the outfitter.
 
I don’t know where you hunt but I’m not sure anyone would want to pay 42K for a buff hunt!!
Maybe your especially affluent enough to be making assumptions like that but most of us are not
Well…. News flash…. No offense…and to members here that don’t know TZ prices are well above market elsewhere
That’s going rate basically in Masaii Land and western TZ for Buff (x2) and plains game. It’s actually more like 50k (I’m not saying it’s not super expensive because it is…)

Also…the rate you paid (which I believe INCLUDED TROPHY FEES) was well below market for just plains game in Masaii land and WAYYYYY below market for Buffalo and Plains game
So. You actually got a “great deal” just not a proverbial “steal”
Again, I’m not saying it wasn’t very badly misrepresented. I’m simply pointing out that when price is greatly misaligned with the market…that is a major warning sign of just such an event.
 
If you come to my town and get robbed, who is the criminal. The guy that didn’t know not to walk on xyz street after midnight or the guy that grabbed his wallet and ran?
Who the criminal is is clear. Whether the guy walking the street should have known better isn’t. If 5 locals stop you and tell you don’t go that way there was probably a reason.
 
I learned this from my boat diesel engine mechanic. He is charging heavily foreign yacht owners.
On the end of day, It is not the cost that matters, but it is the quality of service provided.
I would add, the memories too

Unsuccesful buffalo hunt for 21k, remains unseccesful hunt
Successful buffalo hunt for 5k (cow in south Africa) or 30, 40k successful hunt on a dwarfs buffalo bull in rain forest, (you name it) remains successful hunt.

As we grow old, only memories remain. of our successes or of our failures. Only that. The money we spent on our success is of less importance. 5k or 40k, irrellevant.
We cherish only the success.

Outfitter should clarify the local conditions of the hunt in advance when making the deal.
Client should have asked more details, before making the deal..
But the client has the right not to know everything - because he is hiring professionals.
Client has the right to have zero knowledge.

Outfitter has better half of responsibility
Very well stated
 
If you come to my town and get robbed, who is the criminal. The guy that didn’t know not to walk on xyz street after midnight or the guy that grabbed his wallet and ran?
The analogy is more like you bought the buffet and you thought (and were told) the buffet may include Lobster and Crab based on seasonal availability. You paid $14.99 and the Sunday Brunch price that usually has the seafood is $49.99.
You went and the buffet was good… you had some delicious fried chicken, some prime rib and some ham… service was good and atmosphere was great….
But you are super pissed you didn’t get the Lobster and crab legs because the guy sold you on it being available often (which was bullshit)
But you knew you got a deal at $14.99 and you knew (or should have know and were maybe even warned by multiple people before you went) that the normal price that included those was $49.99
I might be very disappointed but there were signs this may be the case
 
My thoughts exactly. I recently saw an end of season lion hunt advertised with $600 daily rates and $25k trophy fee. That has to be the cheapest lion hunt I've seen. It may be a perfectly good deal with some leftover quota or a cancellation but I would ask a ton of questions before booking.

Maybe I'm foolish but "buy once cry once" applies to the hunts as much as it does the gear.
Was this hunt posted here, just interested in reading the add or who was it?
 
It was not. I don’t believe they are a sponsor.
 
It was not. I don’t believe they are a sponsor.
If gold trades for $4300/ounce and someone offers you gold for $3500/ounce, are you going to jump on it and tell yourself you got a great deal?

The analogy is not entirely apt, but wild lions have a market value and demand typically exceeds supply (which is why ‘usual’ prices are where they are). If you’re being offered a screaming deal, you need to ask yourself and the outfitter some tough questions.
 
The analogy was for a below going rate buffalo hunt in massailand not the lion hunt being discussed.
I was making a general comment and used lion as the example.
 
I was making a general comment and used lion as the example.
I deleted my comment (while you were typing) when I realized you were making a general comment not referencing an earlier post.
 
It was not. I don’t believe they are a sponsor.
That outfitter is not a sponsor, and that country only has one or two outfitters represented here as sponsors. The same goes for most of the “wild” countries in Africa. Unfortunately/Fortunately (depending upon how you look at it) the sponsoring outfitters here on AH are almost entirely compromised of South African and Namibian Outfitters. A majority of whom are hunting on ranches and other tracts of Private Land, often with fenced borders. In Africa Fair Chase and Free Range aren’t always synonymous with one another.
 
I went back and looked at Maasailand Tanzania spread sheet pricing from my trip. The cheapest outfitter the daily rate for 10 days was 35k premium license and the most expensive was 55k. (My outfitter charged 41,800 for the daily rate & no booze too.) Add trophy fees on top with a Buffalo the cheapest was $56,100 and the most expensive was 85,500. If you get your animals home, at 21k you did get a bargain for a plains game hunt.
 
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Was this hunt posted here, just interested in reading the add or who was it?
It was not…it was emailed to many of us.
Mokore Safaris who are HIGHLY reputable
It had a rather large trophy fee (more than fair)
If successful it would have been a steal basicalky
 

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